Need some advice on day 21 defoliation.

[Zill]

I never understood this concept of removing healthy leaves that somehow are negatively affecting the plant.

If leaves become parasitic to the plant due to shading the plant will naturally abort those leaves. If you’re concerned about canopy air flow place a low cfm fan floor level and point it into the canopy. You’re removing the factories that make photosynthates. Makes no sense. You need more leaves not fewer leaves. Vegetatively speaking of course.

 

[Eledin]

I used to defoliate religiously and never tried to let the plant work it out itself. I will say this, since I avoid defoliating as much as possible Im getting bigger yields. Is not advisable to remove more than 20% of the foliage at the same time, then give them 2 weeks to recover at least until the next defoliation. Max I do now is trimm (not remove) a few leaves and cut 1 or 2 that might be shadowing an entire branch. Shadowing the bud is not a problem as long as the leaves from that stem get light, buds dont photosyntetize (The tiny leaves they have might, but they are tiny suggar leaves and they are hiding inside the bud so... I wouldnt even count on them for that)
EDIT: I do tuck them a lot too, specially when the side branches are still growing upwards, it helps them pass that fan leave quicker. I do a bit of internal leave defoliation like F.Dupp said, but only when the plant is a dwarf pheno and all thel leaves and buds are touching each other, but those phenos Ive only seen them in autos, they are super small and compact, good buds but yeah its a mess of leaves). Here is an example of a dwarf pheno from a matanuska auto, you will see why I had to remove leaves from the inside part of the plant, and even then I avoid removing fan leaves as much as possible.

In dwarf phenos you wanna defoliate a bit because youre likely to get bud rot in humid areas if you dont.

 

[Pilted]

Thank you very much everyone, good information here gives me lots to think about. I have some time before my scheduled defoliation is here, so all the info I can gather on it will help me make good decisions.

 

[BudgetGrower]

The canopy has really good airflow, plant looks very healthy, shoots are well spaced out, you read the plant,
don't go on a set of rules, I hope you don't remove a single leaf off this plant, you have done a really good job removing and thinning out the lower canopy.

 

[Pilted]

The canopy has really good airflow, plant looks very healthy, shoots are well spaced out, you read the plant,
don't go on a set of rules, I hope you don't remove a single leaf off this plant, you have done a really good job removing and thinning out the lower canopy.

That's the advice I need, I don't wanna mess it up now. Air flow seems great light penetration is decent but I think there are a few leaves in the middle I will remove as they are stacked on top of each other and are reducing air flow and light penetration but that only like two leaves, I am debating on leaving the bottom leaves alone as the are not preventing air flow or light penetration and I think it will be benfishal for the plant to have stored resources Incase I drop the ball on feeding.

Idk they still have a week and can still grow more might be totally different looking by next week.

I need to smoke a bowl, this internal war in my head about heavy defoliation or light defoliation is an epic battle, and I'm sitting here flip flopping on what I wanna do, I feel like my wife when she trying to figure out what shoes to wear.

 

[Harpua88]

I think a good part of it has to do with how much time is left before flowering. Instead of "defoliate vs. Not defoliate", and it seems as if most experienced growers lean towards "not", or at least minimal/selective.......

How many days are left before flowering? How many days do we have to allow new growth, branches, to fill in? If we're already 2 weeks into flowering, there's really no time for new growth to fill in. I would say defoliating has almost all downside and no upside. If there's 2 weeks of veg still to go, then we have that time cushion for new growth, defoliating could have more upside.

Then the question is..........is it a waste of time to add more veg days in order to shape the plants, attempt more branching? Maybe defoliating and adding more veg days increases yield by 5%. But that's extra days added on to the calendar. Is that worth it?

At this point maybe the answer is it's worth it if that's what you want. If you want larger plants with more branching and more weight and you're willing to add time to get it, then do some selective defoliating, many days before flowering and make it happen. If time is an issue and you want to squeeze as many harvests as possible in a year, if you want smaller plants that finish more quickly, don't defoliate.

Old, bottom, unproductive growth is probably always ok to cut, and cutting into flowering is probably not helpful.

Pilted, at some point you'll absorb all the cases for and against, methods and choices........and you'll do your own thing, because it's what you like. You're not going to do anything wrong, you're just going to develop your style as a grower.

 

[BudgetGrower]

I would turn the plant over to flower, its going to double in size and fill the flower room, 2 week in flower you can still thin the canopy out if you need too.

 

[Pilted]

I think a good part of it has to do with how much time is left before flowering. Instead of "defoliate vs. Not defoliate", and it seems as if most experienced growers lean towards "not", or at least minimal/selective.......

How many days are left before flowering? How many days do we have to allow new growth, branches, to fill in? If we're already 2 weeks into flowering, there's really no time for new growth to fill in. I would say defoliating has almost all downside and no upside. If there's 2 weeks of veg still to go, then we have that time cushion for new growth, defoliating could have more upside.

Then the question is..........is it a waste of time to add more veg days in order to shape the plants, attempt more branching? Maybe defoliating and adding more veg days increases yield by 5%. But that's extra days added on to the calendar. Is that worth it?

At this point maybe the answer is it's worth it if that's what you want. If you want larger plants with more branching and more weight and you're willing to add time to get it, then do some selective defoliating, many days before flowering and make it happen. If time is an issue and you want to squeeze as many harvests as possible in a year, if you want smaller plants that finish more quickly, don't defoliate.

Old, bottom, unproductive growth is probably always ok to cut, and cutting into flowering is probably not helpful.

Pilted, at some point you'll absorb all the cases for and against, methods and choices........and you'll do your own thing, because it's what you like. You're not going to do anything wrong, you're just going to develop your style as a grower.

That makes a lot of sense actually it's very logical. One thing that concerns me is I am growing and finishing flower on a 100w light SF 1000. My first grow I harvested 8 oz in my 27x27 inch tent with the same 100w light, it was a much longer grow and involved a lot more training, but I defoliated very heavy on day 21 flower. 8 oz with this setup I have come to understand is decent, but I felt it could have been much better. I think the heavy defoliation hindered the ability for the buds to fatten up as much as I wanted, but this could have very well be the fact I am growing with a 100w light. I think at the end of the day when it comes time to do it I am going to reflect back on my first grow and take very little off. Don't ask me about my second grow it was very bad. Good learning experience.

 

[Harpua88]

That makes a lot of sense actually it's very logical. One thing that concerns me is I am growing and finishing flower on a 100w light SF 1000. My first grow I harvested 8 oz in my 27x27 inch tent with the same 100w light, it was a much longer grow and involved a lot more training, but I defoliated very heavy on day 21 flower. 8 oz with this setup I have come to understand is decent, but I felt it could have been much better. I think the heavy defoliation hindered the ability for the buds to fatten up as much as I wanted, but this could have very well be the fact I am growing with a 100w light. I think at the end of the day when it comes time to do it I am going to reflect back on my first grow and take very little off. Don't ask me about my second grow it was very bad. Good learning experience.

Good points. So does a lower power light have less penetration ability, so better to do some defoliating?

Aren't you supposed to be smoking a bowl? Ha!

Yes, at some point it's going down the rabbit hole of "but, then, if...". Try not to compare and carry forward previous grows to your next grow (other than things you've clearly learned, improved, mistakes made) because each grow is different, new, and you don't want to weigh your mind down with all of these comparisons that probably aren't helpful anyway.

 

[Pilted]

Good points. So does a lower power light have less penetration ability, so better to do some defoliating?

Aren't you supposed to be smoking a bowl? Ha!

Yes, at some point it's going down the rabbit hole of "but, then, if...". Try not to compare and carry forward previous grows to your next grow (other than things you've clearly learned, improved, mistakes made) because each grow is different, new, and you don't want to weigh your mind down with all of these comparisons that probably aren't helpful anyway.

I am not sure on the penetration I am assuming yes it is less, as this is the only light I have grown with I can only tell you what i am working with. In flower you want light to be in-between 500-1000 ppfd, (my personal goal is 600-900 ppfd) well this light has no problem reaching that ppfd and can go way past it, but the acceptable range of 600-900 is only 4 inches in height, so lower part of the 4 inches 600 higher part of the 4 inches 900. Then plant itself likes about 850 at the top heads currently all of my main heads are in that range and 4 inches below the main heads are in range (even canopy is a must with this light). I assume more wattage expands that window but I really don't know? Been thinking about updating the light but the low cost on electricity is really a nice feature.


I'm am smoking my bowl now, but the notification don't seem to care much about me getting high.

 

[BudgetGrower]

Think of a pyramid with a flat top, small quantum boards leds is the flat top, the more distance between the canopy and the led, the larger the light spread but the weaker the light penetration

 

[Harpua88]

I am not sure on the penetration I am assuming yes it is less, as this is the only light I have grown with I can only tell you what i am working with. In flower you want light to be in-between 500-1000 ppfd, (my personal goal is 600-900 ppfd) well this light has no problem reaching that ppfd and can go way past it, but the acceptable range of 600-900 is only 4 inches in height, so lower part of the 4 inches 600 higher part of the 4 inches 900. Then plant itself likes about 850 at the top heads currently all of my main heads are in that range and 4 inches below the main heads are in range (even canopy is a must with this light). I assume more wattage expands that window but I really don't know? Been thinking about updating the light but the low cost on electricity is really a nice feature.


I'm am smoking my bowl now, but the notification don't seem to care much about me getting high.

I would turn the plant over to flower, its going to double in size and fill the flower room, 2 week in flower you can still thin the canopy out if you need too.

Yes but that doubling in size is mostly stretch, not new leaf/branch production. But it's all how you do it, what you like.......if you're getting the results you aimed for, then it's good. I've seen plenty of pictures, we all have, of plants that werre defoliated quite a bit and have come out great. Maybe it takes a little more time/patience, and the skills/experience to dial it all in. Maybe it's good for tighter spaces, or more plants in a given space.....

 

[BudgetGrower]

Yes but that doubling in size is mostly stretch, not new leaf/branch production. But it's all how you do it, what you like.......if you're getting the results you aimed for, then it's good. I've seen plenty of pictures, we all have, of plants that werre defoliated quite a bit and have come out great. Maybe it takes a little more time/patience, and the skills/experience to dial it all in. Maybe it's good for tighter spaces, or more plants in a given space.....

The problem is everyone wants so show you pictures when things turn out great, some plants grow tones of leaves, you can keep removing them and in a few days there back, other plants don't tend to grow as many new leaves in early flower, so if started them from seed, its a roll of the dice, I would play it safe, in 2 weeks time you will know and can you can decide then.

 

[Pilted]

Day 54 from seed in ground, day 20 of flower, I went ahead and did my defoliation, I took off 8 leaves from the middle, one from each branch. Probably should have done more, but I need to see how minimal defoliation plays out, it's the way I learn. Thanks everyone for all the advice and suggestions, I took them all into consideration.

 

[seafoodgumbo]

I keep telling myself buds will still grow in indirect light, I need it to have a lot of leaves to be able to produce energy to grow the buds. But then the other part of my head says naw you need the light to be on the bud sites in order for them to grow. Take more off. There is literally a war going on inside my head on how much to take off.

Watch Black Dog LED's YouTube videos of their complete grows. They go into great detail of why you should defoliate during flower, when, and how much to remove. I was skeptical of removing so much before flipping to flower, but I'm seeing positive results from it.
I know this is a late response, but hope it helps in general.
Good luck!

 

[Pilted]

Watch Black Dog LED's YouTube videos of their complete grows. They go into great detail of why you should defoliate during flower, when, and how much to remove. I was skeptical of removing so much before flipping to flower, but I'm seeing positive results from it.
I know this is a late response, but hope it helps in general.
Good luck!

Man that plant ended up being absolutely fire.

 

[seafoodgumbo]

Man that plant ended up being absolutely fire.

Good to hear!
Im coming up to day 21 of flower, of my first ever grow, and ive been trying to find before and after results of different levels of defol.
Lots of info out there, but good to know that worked for you and your plants came out fine

 

[Pilted]

Good to hear!
Im coming up to day 21 of flower, of my first ever grow, and ive been trying to find before and after results of different levels of defol.
Lots of info out there, but good to know that worked for you and your plants came out fine

There is really no wrong way to do it, well if you cut all the leaves off I guess that could be wrong, lol just remember leaves gives the plant the ability to produce energy, but buds do grow bigger and tighter with more light. I defoliate very little now a days on day 21, maybe just 5-15 leaves and any lower bud sites that are never going to get light.

Here are two examples I have going right now.

And another

My main concern now a days is air flow I take off very little on the 21 defoliation.

 

[Grower1974]

Leaves are a buffer/reserve. Defoliation won't hurt once the plant is well established into flower (2-4 weeks). The only potential problem is if the plant doesn't get what it needs from the source for some reason. Water/nutrients/environment etc go out of sync, and now the plant jumps to the reserve leaves for nutrition supplement. Other than that, selective defoliation may help/may not. Probably comes down to many other factors and will always vary anyway.

 

[Rama777]

I’m on my first grow and went back and forth in my head a million times about how much to defoliate and how deep to remove bud sites.

I ended up leaving more on than I could have but I am glad and tell you why. If I had heavily defoliated, I would not have known how my lights penetrate, how deep down this strain makes dense bugs, etc. So next time I will take off more, but I will have personal hands on experience that informs my decisions. If you take off a lot or “too much” then the next round you know to take off less, but by how much?

Anyways for me personally, I believe I’ve learned more by taking off “too little” versus “too much.”