High RH Levels & Leaf Curling

[ArtistZanner]

@PooToe You had suggested an app to test the lighting. I too have an Android, and while I didn't get the Tent Buddy, because for some reason, it wasn't shown as an option, I did get one with a 4.8 rating and says it does the same thing. However, I'm not sure how to use it and what numbers I'm looking for. Do I use it directly under the light? And what kind of numbers am I looking for. Sorry to sound stupid, but all of this is so new, and people on here talk about these things like it's every day matters. It's kind of like learning a foreign language. Anyway, I meant to ask you about it last night, but I forgot and just remembered about it.

 

[PooToe]

@PooToe You had suggested an app to test the lighting. I too have an Android, and while I didn't get the Tent Buddy, because for some reason, it wasn't shown as an option, I did get one with a 4.8 rating and says it does the same thing. However, I'm not sure how to use it and what numbers I'm looking for. Do I use it directly under the light? And what kind of numbers am I looking for. Sorry to sound stupid, but all of this is so new, and people on here talk about these things like it's every day matters. It's kind of like learning a foreign language. Anyway, I meant to ask you about it last night, but I forgot and just remembered about it.

The only dumb question is the one that was never asked.

Not sure which app you have but you use it by placing your camera phone at canopy level and allow the program to calculate the light energy(PPFD) that is hitting the plant. Some apps will only measure LUX which means you'll need to convert it to PPFD. Depending on the stage of the plant a general guideline would be 200 -400 ppfd for clones and seedlings, 400 - 600 ppfd for early to late veg and 600 -900 ppfd for flower.

Lux to ppfd calculator

Convert Lux to PPFD - Online Calculator | Waveform Lighting

Online calculator to convert illuminance (lux) to PPFD (micromoles per second per meter squared).

www.waveformlighting.com

Read this to understand the difference between Lumens, LUX, PAR, PPF and PPFD.

Lumens, Lux, PAR, PPF and PPFD: What Is the Difference?

Understanding Lumens, Lux, PAR, PPF and PPFD can help you better choose LED grow lights for your greenhouse or indoor plants.

www.mokolight.com

 

[ArtistZanner]

The only dumb question is the one that was never asked.

Not sure which app you have but you use it by placing your camera phone at canopy level and allow the program to calculate the light energy(PPFD) that is hitting the plant. Some apps will only measure LUX which means you'll need to convert it to PPFD. Depending on the stage of the plant a general guideline would be 200 -400 ppfd for clones and seedlings, 400 - 600 ppfd for early to late veg and 600 -900 ppfd for flower.

Lux to ppfd calculator

Convert Lux to PPFD - Online Calculator | Waveform Lighting

Online calculator to convert illuminance (lux) to PPFD (micromoles per second per meter squared).

www.waveformlighting.com

Read this to understand the difference between Lumens, LUX, PAR, PPF and PPFD.

Lumens, Lux, PAR, PPF and PPFD: What Is the Difference?

Understanding Lumens, Lux, PAR, PPF and PPFD can help you better choose LED grow lights for your greenhouse or indoor plants.

www.mokolight.com

Awesome, thank you! When I turn lights on this evening I will go and check that out. I will also read the info in the links you've provided. Thanks so much.

 

[Newty]

The phone app most of us use on here is call Photone (in the google play store), if that's not the one you're using then maybe try it anyway to compare to the other app or device you're using.

 

[ArtistZanner]

I hate to constantly complain but I'm going to anyway, because I still have problems.
I'm 6 days away from when I'd like to flip my plants to flowering. However, I'm still battling high humidity and the plants that had "taco leaf" still have it. It's not smoothed out as I had thought it was. Now, I will say, I was very naive when I started because like all good newbies, I planted way too many plants and didn't foresee how that would work out in the space I had. I did move some things around and have widened and opened out my space where I could, plus I bought another couple of lights. So, here's the thing. With battling "taco leaf", which I think is a combination from high humidity and also that the plant was too close to the lights, I'm unsure what to do to fix it before I flip.

I currently have a small space heater in there to get the temperature up, and I also have a full size dehumidifier, which works very well. So I have two questions. Number one, does anyone think I should add another heater to my growing area? Number two, if I go by the guide that came with the lights, then I'm back where I was and I'm afraid the plants will suffer from high light intensity, and I'm afraid I will end up with worse "taco leaf". So I was wondering if I should lift the lights even higher and what intensity should I have the light dimmer at?
I tried using a PPFD app on my phone, and if I did it right, it's coming out at over 650, that's at the top of the plant (the light intensity was around 45%).

I will say that when I started, I thought this was going to be easy, and it was at first. But I'm finding the larger the plants get, the more issues I'm having to deal with. Another thing is, I've heard a lot of people saying they are watering twice a week, but when I water my plants with some run-off, I notice that sometimes the very next day they are feeling dry again. I usually stick a couple of fingers down in the soil to at least the 2nd knuckle, and it's feeling dry. Now, I know that sometimes a plant has a similar look when it's thirsty and when it's been over-watered, and the last thing I want to do is to over-water a plant because I know that's an easy way to kill a plant. But when my soil is feeling very dry, I have to guess that it really does need water. It is pretty warm in there, though by some standards maybe not warm enough, it's about 67-68F, sometimes maybe 70-71F if I'm lucky. But to be honest, I'm not really worried about the temperature, I'm more concerned with the humidity. I'd love to get it down before I start flowering, as I know that's an issue which can cause problems.

I'm just hoping that I can get this either fixed, or on the road to being fixed in the next week before I flip. I think other than still having an issue with "taco leaf", my plants look good, are growing well and I'm fairly happy. But it does worry me that the "taco leaf" affects all the new growth and I'm not sure what the long term affects that will have, if any.

So, the questions are ~ should I add a 2nd heater to make it even hotter in there (hopefully lowering the humidity)? And how high above the top of the plant should the lights be, and at what intensity should I be running them? I know that too low and it could affect growth, but too high and I'm end up exacerbating my "taco leaf" issue.

I feel like I'm stuck at a point where I'm not doing any better, even almost a week from when my problem first manifested itself.

 

[PooToe]

Download a light app so you can measure how much light your providing so you can dial in the light energy.

Here's a chart that you can use that gives you a general guideline to light height and light energy output.

 

[trustyagut]

I hate to constantly complain but I'm going to anyway, because I still have problems.
I'm 6 days away from when I'd like to flip my plants to flowering. However, I'm still battling high humidity and the plants that had "taco leaf" still have it. It's not smoothed out as I had thought it was. Now, I will say, I was very naive when I started because like all good newbies, I planted way too many plants and didn't foresee how that would work out in the space I had. I did move some things around and have widened and opened out my space where I could, plus I bought another couple of lights. So, here's the thing. With battling "taco leaf", which I think is a combination from high humidity and also that the plant was too close to the lights, I'm unsure what to do to fix it before I flip.

I currently have a small space heater in there to get the temperature up, and I also have a full size dehumidifier, which works very well. So I have two questions. Number one, does anyone think I should add another heater to my growing area? Number two, if I go by the guide that came with the lights, then I'm back where I was and I'm afraid the plants will suffer from high light intensity, and I'm afraid I will end up with worse "taco leaf". So I was wondering if I should lift the lights even higher and what intensity should I have the light dimmer at?
I tried using a PPFD app on my phone, and if I did it right, it's coming out at over 650, that's at the top of the plant (the light intensity was around 45%).

I will say that when I started, I thought this was going to be easy, and it was at first. But I'm finding the larger the plants get, the more issues I'm having to deal with. Another thing is, I've heard a lot of people saying they are watering twice a week, but when I water my plants with some run-off, I notice that sometimes the very next day they are feeling dry again. I usually stick a couple of fingers down in the soil to at least the 2nd knuckle, and it's feeling dry. Now, I know that sometimes a plant has a similar look when it's thirsty and when it's been over-watered, and the last thing I want to do is to over-water a plant because I know that's an easy way to kill a plant. But when my soil is feeling very dry, I have to guess that it really does need water. It is pretty warm in there, though by some standards maybe not warm enough, it's about 67-68F, sometimes maybe 70-71F if I'm lucky. But to be honest, I'm not really worried about the temperature, I'm more concerned with the humidity. I'd love to get it down before I start flowering, as I know that's an issue which can cause problems.

I'm just hoping that I can get this either fixed, or on the road to being fixed in the next week before I flip. I think other than still having an issue with "taco leaf", my plants look good, are growing well and I'm fairly happy. But it does worry me that the "taco leaf" affects all the new growth and I'm not sure what the long term affects that will have, if any.

So, the questions are ~ should I add a 2nd heater to make it even hotter in there (hopefully lowering the humidity)? And how high above the top of the plant should the lights be, and at what intensity should I be running them? I know that too low and it could affect growth, but too high and I'm end up exacerbating my "taco leaf" issue.

I feel like I'm stuck at a point where I'm not doing any better, even almost a week from when my problem first manifested itself.

Hi,
You may be right with the high humidity and lights etc causing your edge roll. During veg I could be half that ppfd. Even now at wk5 flower I'm only at about 680 so far and things are going well again.
I'd say start picking the pots up to feel their weight instead of checking how dry the top is, they should feel very light. My pots are around 20gal and even they get light enough to feel they are ready for a big drink, which at the moment in wk5 flower that's 4L every 3 days but was half that in veg, so about 4L once every week. Although the top is dry the day after I water, it still takes another few days to dry back enough to feel light again, also I found I would hit many little roots when checking the top with a finger.
Did you have an update pic?

 

[ArtistZanner]

Hi,
You may be right with the high humidity and lights etc causing your edge roll. During veg I could be half that ppfd. Even now at wk5 flower I'm only at about 680 so far and things are going well again.
I'd say start picking the pots up to feel their weight instead of checking how dry the top is, they should feel very light. My pots are around 20gal and even they get light enough to feel they are ready for a big drink, which at the moment in wk5 flower that's 4L every 3 days but was half that in veg, so about 4L once every week. Although the top is dry the day after I water, it still takes another few days to dry back enough to feel light again, also I found I would hit many little roots when checking the top with a finger.
Did you have an update pic?

I will take some photos tonight, as my lights are off right now. Maybe I'm not giving enough water when I water. I have a 3L watering can and I can almost water 2 plants with that (it's not quite enough for two). I do have run-off, but it's hard to see just how much run-off I'm getting and I've heard some people say you don't want a lot of run-off, though there's a lot of information out there and it's hard to discern what is really good information and what is just BS. I've got 5 plants in 4-gallon fabric pots, and I've got 6 plants in 5-gallon fabric pots. Obviously the larger ones will take more water. I will try the lifting method, or maybe take my scale out there and weigh them, because it's hard to easily to lift them. But if I weigh them I might be able to guesstimate the weight. I don't know, or maybe I'll buy a meter. I have back problems and so bending over and picking up 11 pots just increases my pain. Yes, I can get to them, but I have to move plants around to get to the ones in the back. I admit that I didn't plan my grow very well. I didn't realise they'd get so big (I believe mine are Indica strains and the leaves are quite large already), and my space is not exactly crowded, but just difficult to move in that space.

Anyway, I think I will try moving the lights up again. Clearly something isn't right.

Would anyone advise adding another heater to the room to try and dry out the room more and get the humidity down?

 

[ArtistZanner]

@trustyagut Here's some photos. Most are of my other plants that I think are fine. Towards the end you will see the plant with the worst case of "taco leaf". There's also a close-up photo of another plant, and there's some spotting on the leaf, I'm not sure what that is and thought I would post in case it's something that indicates a problem.

 

[Ninjadogma]

Be lucky yall aren't in Ventura County. Last week we were dealing with overnight RH jumping to 95% and this week it's 14%. Normally that wouldnt be a big deal but I just harvested a plant last Saturday and goddamn if I didn't do my best trying to keep it between 50-70% environment while getting hit with both sides of extreme during the dry.

 

[ArtistZanner]

Be lucky yall aren't in Ventura County. Last week we were dealing with overnight RH jumping to 95% and this week it's 14%. Normally that wouldnt be a big deal but I just harvested a plant last Saturday and goddamn if I didn't do my best trying to keep it between 50-70% environment while getting hit with both sides of extreme during the dry.

Wow, that's quite a ranger of humidity! We should be having cold weather, but it's been warmer than normal and we're having a lot of rain. I would prefer to have colder weather because it brings my humidity down. I can deal with the cooler temperatures, and I have a heater, but I'm having a very difficult time getting the humidity below 67%. I want to flip next week, but not sure I will until I can sort my problem, or at least that one plant looking better.

 

[Ninjadogma]

Right now I have drying on my mind... October can be tricky with extremely friggen dry conditions with single digit relative humidity. We were getting weather in the 40-60% range and I thought perfect, I'll harvest one, and the very next day we got super damp air, which is very abnormal this time of year. It was moist ocean air from the Pacific, which we would normally see in May and June.

Whatever the conditions are right now when you flip, they could be quite different next week. I think the suggestion of others here to make sure you have the air circulating, you should be okay. If the dehumidifier can't keep up, try adding a bucket or two of Damp Rid until it comes down. Is it rated for your room size?

 

[PooToe]

@trustyagut Here's some photos. Most are of my other plants that I think are fine. Towards the end you will see the plant with the worst case of "taco leaf". There's also a close-up photo of another plant, and there's some spotting on the leaf, I'm not sure what that is and thought I would post in case it's something that indicates a problem.
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Hmmmm...I'm seeing some signs of a deficiency. Looks like mag. That could, in addition to the high humidity, be what is affecting your plant.

I'd also inspect your plants for bugs. Mites are the most obvious culprit but they are small to the naked eye. You need a magnifier to see them and they like to hide and lay eggs under the leaves so check there first to see if there are any signs of bugs.

 

[trustyagut]

I will take some photos tonight, as my lights are off right now. Maybe I'm not giving enough water when I water. I have a 3L watering can and I can almost water 2 plants with that (it's not quite enough for two). I do have run-off, but it's hard to see just how much run-off I'm getting and I've heard some people say you don't want a lot of run-off, though there's a lot of information out there and it's hard to discern what is really good information and what is just BS. I've got 5 plants in 4-gallon fabric pots, and I've got 6 plants in 5-gallon fabric pots. Obviously the larger ones will take more water. I will try the lifting method, or maybe take my scale out there and weigh them, because it's hard to easily to lift them. But if I weigh them I might be able to guesstimate the weight. I don't know, or maybe I'll buy a meter. I have back problems and so bending over and picking up 11 pots just increases my pain. Yes, I can get to them, but I have to move plants around to get to the ones in the back. I admit that I didn't plan my grow very well. I didn't realise they'd get so big (I believe mine are Indica strains and the leaves are quite large already), and my space is not exactly crowded, but just difficult to move in that space.

Anyway, I think I will try moving the lights up again. Clearly something isn't right.

Would anyone advise adding another heater to the room to try and dry out the room more and get the humidity down?

Usually mine take around 5% of soil volume in water. My pots have got around 70litres of soil so they take about 3.5-4L before getting any run off (water 2L then wait 20min before watering the other 2L). I grow in my own living soil so I don't ever water to have run off, just until they start to drip out the bottom, maybe 50-100ml and that's it.

My back is no good either, what I do is sit on a stool and rest my wrists on my knees and just pick the plants up using my hands pivoting off my wrists resting on my knees, no back involved and very easy to tell the difference in weight from wet to dry. I think you should have no dramas with your pots as they're only ¼ the volume. You also don't need to pick it up completely if it's heavy, you already know it'll still be too wet, once dry they're extremely light weight.

You don't have a fan blowing directly on them do you?

 

[ArtistZanner]

@PooToe I thought that too about the magnesium, but I'm actually adding CalMag to my other nutrients. And then I thought maybe they were getting too much. Do you think I should continue adding the CalMag? Also, if I do have mites, and I did turn over many leaves and looked, though I understand what you're saying about them being small, but if I do have an issue, what can I do about it? I bought some Neem to deal with bugs on some of my houseplants (and no, my house plants have no contact with my cannabis plants). Could I use the neem spray? It's actually natural.

@trustyagut I have the fan blowing just over the plants, so they have just a little bit of movement. I even put the fan up higher, so it wouldn't be exactly at plant height. It oscillates, so it's never just blowing on any one plant. It's mainly to keep air movement going.

 

[PooToe]

You can use the neem but first confirm you have bugs.

I still think the main culprit is humidity but plants in their weakened state tend to attract bugs.

 

[ArtistZanner]

You can use the neem but first confirm you have bugs.

I still think the main culprit is humidity but plants in their weakened state tend to attract bugs.

I agree with you about the humidity, but just to be sure, I went out while the lights were off, took my loupe, a good flashlight and inspected all under the leaves, not just on that one plant, but on others as well. I could not see any evidence of bugs, or eggs. I looked quite diligently and just to be sure, I did spray my neem mixture on all of the plants, some more than others. I felt that the neem is natural, so it's not going to hurt anything, and if there is something there, that perhaps I missed, the neem, hopefully, will catch it before it beomes a problem. I have been allowing my dogs to come in and I think that's something I'm going to stop allowing, just to be on the safe side.

As for humidity. I now have two hygrometers in there. One is on the wall (left side), which is an outside wall, and one is on the right side of the room sitting on something. They have nearly exact temperature readings, but there is almost always a 5% difference in the humidity reading. For instance, the one on the right says 66% and the one on the left side says 71%.

I asked before, and just want to ask again, do you think it's worth putting another heater in there to dry up the air? I really can't afford another dehumidifier, at least not like the one I have. But I do have those little box heaters (my dogs like them) and could put another in there if it would do any good.

I feel so bummed out. Everything was going fine (or seemed to be) until about a week ago and that's when things started looking complicated with maybe more than one issue going on (as you mentioned, it looks like I may have a deficiency). I wasn't going to add CalMag to my latest batch of water (and when I say water, of course there are nutrients in there, as I'm still using the Advanced Nutrients line. I like that they are pH regulated), but I went and added the CalMag to what I had mixed up because I think you are right and obviously you know much more than I do and I appreciate good solid advice.

And please know that I do appreciate that you've taken the time to try and help. I feel like a blind woman bumping around hoping I don't mess the entire thing up before I can reap some of the benefits.

 

[PooToe]

Don't be discouraged. It happens to us all. These plants are pretty resilient so just ride out the deficiency. Just do the best you can with what you have. If your heater isn't quite up to where you would like it to be but don't have the coin to bring in another I would just stay with what you have and do what you can. Your other plants look fine so I wouldn't be too worried. Not much you can do about the weather. Think of it as a good lesson in understanding the plants needs and how these variables can affect it.

Next time you can try and setup a more controllable environment so you don't run into these issues as much. The R tech I mentioned is an easy, and fairly cheap, way of doing that by insulating your space from the outdoor temperature and being able to contain and manipulate it. Sequestering and containing a space will make it easier to control its environment. If you can place your grow space inside your house and your house has some sort of environmental control it will make it much easier to control the environment and keep your plants within the range you desire. I visited the UK many years back and I didn't see much in regard to air conditioning or HVAC in homes. Public spaces yes but homes not so much. Not sure if that is still the case but if you don't have this in your home then you'll sort of be at the mercy of your weather like you are now. Maybe not quite as pronounced, as you have better control in your home, but a better environment than a shed that is open to the elements.

 

[ArtistZanner]

Don't be discouraged. It happens to us all. These plants are pretty resilient so just ride out the deficiency. Just do the best you can with what you have. If your heater isn't quite up to where you would like it to be but don't have the coin to bring in another I would just stay with what you have and do what you can. Your other plants look fine so I wouldn't be too worried. Not much you can do about the weather. Think of it as a good lesson in understanding the plants needs and how these variables can affect it.

Next time you can try and setup a more controllable environment so you don't run into these issues as much. The R tech I mentioned is an easy, and fairly cheap, way of doing that by insulating your space from the outdoor temperature and being able to contain and manipulate it. Sequestering and containing a space will make it easier to control its environment. If you can place your grow space inside your house and your house has some sort of environmental control it will make it much easier to control the environment and keep your plants within the range you desire. I visited the UK many years back and I didn't see much in regard to air conditioning or HVAC in homes. Public spaces yes but homes not so much. Not sure if that is still the case but if you don't have this in your home then you'll sort of be at the mercy of your weather like you are now. Maybe not quite as pronounced, as you have better control in your home, but a better environment than a shed that is open to the elements.

Thanks, I was bummed out, but when I went inside today, I noticed something. Some of the plants from Batch 1, which are taller than Batch 2, they are the ones that are affected by taco leaf and by magnesium deficiency. I have some epsom salt coming tomorrow, and I'm going to see if that fixes my deficiency. But I believe the taller plants were much too close to the lights. I went and moved my plants around so that all the smaller plants are in the same area, and the larger plants are under lights that are high up now. I'm also dimming the intensity over the larger plants. I honestly don't want to wait too long to flip because some of these plants are getting bigger than I had planned, and I know they will continue to grow when flowering. So I'm going to do the epsom salts tomorrow, and hopefully will be on my way to better looking plants. Worst case scenario, I could always chuck those plants if they don't improve once I'm in flower. I'd still have plenty and as I said, the others (Batch 2) are looking fine.

In regards to a/c in the UK, there is none. I keep a Chinchilla and they are prone to heat stroke pretty easily when temperatures rise above 72F. I went out and bought a portable a/c unit. I also then bought one for the bedroom because I cannot sleep if it's hot.

Just to say, and not that it really matters, but the area where I'm growing now isn't a shed. And really, there's no space in my house to grow (UK homes are much, much smaller than American homes, unless you're rich, which I am not). The building I'm growing in was used as an office and it did have electricity at one time, but someone cut the cables before we moved in and I don't know how much it would cost to get them re-installed. We're only renting, so I don't want to spend any money on something like that. I do get what you're saying about better control. I think, if I did try a 2nd grow, I'd either set up my area better, or maybe get a tent. But it all depends on how this one turns out.

I am hoping that since there seems to be a correlation between the taco leaf and it only affecting the taller plants, that by lifting the lights up as high as I can and dimming the intensity, that maybe I can fix that, or at the least, prevent it from getting worse. We'll see.

Can I just ask, when using the epsom salt, is it better to add it to my nutrient water mix, or put it directly into the soil? Thanks again for all your help.

 

[PooToe]

One thing you may want to consider doing is to raise the smaller plants so that they are level with the larger ones. This way everyone is receiving the same amount of light and it'll give your smaller plants a chance to catch up in terms of growth to your larger ones.

Now that you've narrowed what you think the issue is you can better adjust your area to get the plants back into growth mode rather than recovery.

You can combine the epsom with your nutrients as long as you are watering it immediately into the soil. If you were to setup an automatic watering system then I would say to separate the two to keep them from precipitating.

How to prevent nutrients from precipitating in fertilizer tanks?

When mixing the fertilizers, the risk of precipitation in the fertilizer tanks is present. This is often caused by incorrect dosing or mixing.

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