My plants apparently keep eating themselves

[RavenRaziel]

Hi there :)
So by the start of last December I started my first indoor run.
My only experience to that point was a summer outdoor grow on my balcony that went okish until the bud rot came, with my best plant having been a Gelato Auto.
Therefore I went for Gelato Auto again.
I planted 4 of them in 11l pot, fully watered (I was told that's how it's supposed to be done).
Apparently that was not good (and having the seedling soil turn out a gnat hotel didn't help either) because she behaved over watered.
The plants grew (except for one that never really made it far) but a weird cycle occurred.
The plants' fan leaves would always wither away.
To be precise, I would have an average set of 3 nodes with fan leaves, the lowest withered strongly, the one above beginning to go that direction as well and the too growth looks healthy at first then when outgrown enough to let the next pair shoot through, the most recent one would start with things like interveinal chlorosis.
They also didn't really grow in width, after 7 weeks I gave up on them.

This was the status when I dug them out:

So I figured
Try again, this time water only as much as you think the plants need
That went well for about two weeks, then this happened

So I asked and explained that (and why) I kept the watering on the limited side
I got basically treated like and idiot because I would just let the soil turn hydrophobe and got told to water the pot fully both on her and the seedling that just popped out 3 days ago.

After a while my plants looked like this

Because of that I got recommended to transplant the smaller one to a smaller pot/different soil
I figured it's worth a try

This was the situation a few days later

Under the impression that they are overwatered I let them dry back real good but it wouldn't change a thing
Plant behaves like that no matter how light/heavy the pot is.
Drying back would not stop that cycle, neither would watering again when at a reasonable point.

I got recommended to do a full transplant of the big one to another soil
So I did, oddly enough the roots did not look mushy or brown at all
She didn't handle it well but seems to recover?
This was immediately after

She lost some foliage since but this is her now

It looks like the top growth is getting green again, I assume that is a good sign?
Anyway, that's how she looks as of now

Meanwhile the smaller one is doing something, but it doesn't seem to be something good

I also started to raise 4 Blue Sunset Sherbert Photo Fems, they too show issues like that already (one of them stunted because of issues with the seed shell but she is doing better after I freed her)
This was a few days ago (morning of the 15th to be precise)

This is now

I don't understand where the issue is
I went with a bottom feed on these (on the 18th) to make sure they only take as much as they need to
It won't take much longer until they start eating themselves too

I don't understand it, I really dont
My temps are between 24.5 and 29.5 on average
Humidity in the 60s
The soil I use now is a common growing soil here (Floragard Professional Grow Mix: 85% peat, lime, perlites, NPK fertiliser with trace nutrients, additional trace nutrients, trichoderma) and many people seem to be able to grow with it, so it should be fine.

I run a Caluma 80cm×80cm×180cm tent with a Caluma Force Full Spectrum LED (150w, running at 30% atm).

I did not feed anything yet, I just gave water.

My water pH is a little high (past 8) but I keep hearing very conflicting things here ranging from "completely irrelevant because soil acts as a puffer, don't screw around with pH" to "neglectable for organic grows" to "regulate your pH to the right range regardless of medium" so I'm not sure if it even is an issue.

The last 3 months have been nothing but a short period of excitement (this time it seems to work) followed by a feeling of depression and defeat whenever I get up and check the plants because all I see is how they become progressively worse as I'm standing there, powerless, watching myself create just for it to be destroyed by something I don't understand.

 

[trygrowup]

Sorry can't help much.
I grow in dirt to.
I also get problems.
I can't get it to work with full soaked dirt when starting in the end pot.
Best succes i had with starting autos in end pot, is watering in bigger and bigger circles as the plant grows, and next auto grow I'll be trying that again.
I also had succes with up potting, with absolut best results when the dirt keeps the shape of the pot, so roots don't get setback. Either by the dirt being dry enough or plant got enough roots so the soil don't come apart when up potting.

The autos i run now wasn't the best up pot. I knew it wouldn't be optimal when i saw the dirt came apart when up potting, and got a small setback. One of four never really settled.
My problem with up potting autos is the relative short vegging period. I want to get the plant rooted a bit in end pot, before flowering starts, and plant start prioritizing the flowering.

But your situation looks different.
First thing i would do in your case is to check the dirt bag for information on PH because maybe something else than the watering is wrong.
If Ph is too far off it will lead to lockout. I would also try find out if plants gets the right amount of light.

Also drainage is always good, if you soak all the pot from start.
I'll also be using more drainage next grow

The thing that is obvious, is your roots is not developing at all.

The advice you got, not making them hydrophobic is not wrong although it shouldn't be a problem when watering in bigger and bigger circles.
But yes to much dryback makes the dirt hydrophobic and i don't like it in dirt.
It slows down growth and makes watering harder for example.
I don't call the dry dirt outside the circles i water, for dry back.

Oh yeah one last thing. It true that soil can be frogiven on Ph. But that doe's not mean 8+ PH watering can't cause problems.
The plant and soil will try to stabilize the PH to what it likes and armed at, maybe 6.5 but it comes with a price. The plant need to use some energy to adjust the PH and if you have other problems, then it have less energy for them.

Not saying you have a PH problem but better water would eliminate some problems.
I use RO water cos my tap water is 8+ too. It stabilize my water at 6 PH. So next grow i'll try mixing some tap water in the RO water to get it to 6.5 PH

Good luck getting it sorted out

 

[carlosescobar]

Ive struggled with this for 2 years (if i planted 4 seeds i might get one to take off ) but even then the roots would struggle, to fill my pot , so the plant would grow but the small rootball only takes up a small amount of nutes so you get 2oz of rubbish.
the 2 things i have realised make a big difference is soil temp and less watering . because you have your pots sitting on a metal tray, im going to guess that your roots are too cold ...if the soil is under 18 oC they will hardly grow , around 15 oC and they will stop completely , then every watering will just build up in the plastic pot (and if you water with cold water it compounds your problems ) .
they would do better if they were on a heat mat and if you could get them in a fibre pot or something with more airflow they would dry out quicker . I like using these type of baskets for growing now.

 

[grayoldnproud]

Ive struggled with this for 2 years (if i planted 4 seeds i might get one to take off ) but even then the roots would struggle, to fill my pot , so the plant would grow but the small rootball only takes up a small amount of nutes so you get 2oz of rubbish.
the 2 things i have realised make a big difference is soil temp and less watering . because you have your pots sitting on a metal tray, im going to guess that your roots are too cold ...if the soil is under 18 oC they will hardly grow , around 15 oC and they will stop completely , then every watering will just build up in the plastic pot (and if you water with cold water it compounds your problems ) .
they would do better if they were on a heat mat and if you could get them in a fibre pot or something with more airflow they would dry out quicker . I like using these type of baskets for growing now.

I have cloth grows bags but saw something similar to what you have and was curious about it. Have you grown in them yet?

 

[trygrowup]

Looks like we could make a team @carlosescobar and @RavenRaziel .
I here by present Team Strugglers

 

[JIMKSI64]

I have made some recent mistakes on soil moisture levels but went the other way. I was watering like I normally do with a solo cup over the plant and starting with 100 ml of water. Bumping it up 50 ml every few days based on growth and a touch of the soil 2 inches down.
By rehydrating the soil to the same smell and feel as a new opened bag of my soil from the shop I corrected the mistake and had 80 % success rate.
Just ensure the bag is moist or the soil you are using is moist the whole way. I go from sprouted seeds to the pots, fabric and 3 or 5 gallon auto or fem.
It is best to water new sprouts every day and away from the stem. I use a solo cup or a 400ML jelly jar so I can ensure position of the water. New stuff 100ml and go up based on 2 inch poke into soil and look for not very moist but not dry at this stage.
Grab a new bag or one that was well sealed and feel the moisture levels. This feels is about where you water a well growing plant that has established roots. It is at this point you start watering the pot instead of the plant.
I believe you prolly overwater using a 4 week in veg plant technique where you water the pot and not the water the plant technique seedling and early veg.
But then again opinions will differ here.

 

[hillbil]

Little plants in big containers are very easily overwatered
Easier to start small and up pot a couple times when needed
Solo cups have worked well on this hill

 

[carlosescobar]

I have cloth grows bags but saw something similar to what you have and was curious about it. Have you grown in them yet?

yeah , i grew outside last summer with it , i think its perfect because its stronger than cloth bags, the roots air prune, and it dries out quicker , good for people like me that over water.
they are designed for pond plants , i found this one in a garden centre

 

[carlosescobar]

Looks like we could make a team @carlosescobar and @RavenRaziel .
I here by present Team Strugglers

that was over the last 2 years , current grow is doing really well, i have made every mistake going though,.
last summer i had some plants that looked like that top pic, chucked them outside in a sunny part of the garden and they grew.

 

[MrSativa]

My water pH is a little high (past 8) but I keep hearing very conflicting things here ranging from "completely irrelevant because soil acts as a puffer, don't screw around with pH" to "neglectable for organic grows" to "regulate your pH to the right range regardless of medium" so I'm not sure if it even is an issue.

Past 8 is just to high,

Go buy a gallon of bottled water, plant a seed give it a humi dome and just give it 50ml water this should get you going for a week water it again with 50-100ml water this way 1 liter of water will bring you trough the first 3 weeks and is error proof if anything happens u can be sure its not nutes or watering.

Also 29 is just to high for a seedling on the foto with the 4 seedlings it looks like they already have light burn.
You are just over-caring your plants let them chill for a bit

 

[carlosescobar]

Hi there :)
So by the start of last December I started my first indoor run.
My only experience to that point was a summer outdoor grow on my balcony that went okish until the bud rot came, with my best plant having been a Gelato Auto.
Therefore I went for Gelato Auto again.
I planted 4 of them in 11l pot, fully watered (I was told that's how it's supposed to be done).
Apparently that was not good (and having the seedling soil turn out a gnat hotel didn't help either) because she behaved over watered.
The plants grew (except for one that never really made it far) but a weird cycle occurred.
The plants' fan leaves would always wither away.
To be precise, I would have an average set of 3 nodes with fan leaves, the lowest withered strongly, the one above beginning to go that direction as well and the too growth looks healthy at first then when outgrown enough to let the next pair shoot through, the most recent one would start with things like interveinal chlorosis.
They also didn't really grow in width, after 7 weeks I gave up on them.

This was the status when I dug them out:
View attachment 2605828
View attachment 2605829View attachment 2605830

So I figured
Try again, this time water only as much as you think the plants need
That went well for about two weeks, then this happened

View attachment 2605831


So I asked and explained that (and why) I kept the watering on the limited side
I got basically treated like and idiot because I would just let the soil turn hydrophobe and got told to water the pot fully both on her and the seedling that just popped out 3 days ago.

After a while my plants looked like this
View attachment 2605834View attachment 2605833

Because of that I got recommended to transplant the smaller one to a smaller pot/different soil
I figured it's worth a try

This was the situation a few days later
View attachment 2605841View attachment 2605842

Under the impression that they are overwatered I let them dry back real good but it wouldn't change a thing
Plant behaves like that no matter how light/heavy the pot is.
Drying back would not stop that cycle, neither would watering again when at a reasonable point.

I got recommended to do a full transplant of the big one to another soil
So I did, oddly enough the roots did not look mushy or brown at all
She didn't handle it well but seems to recover?
This was immediately after
View attachment 2605843

She lost some foliage since but this is her now
View attachment 2605844

It looks like the top growth is getting green again, I assume that is a good sign?
Anyway, that's how she looks as of now

Meanwhile the smaller one is doing something, but it doesn't seem to be something goodView attachment 2605845

I also started to raise 4 Blue Sunset Sherbert Photo Fems, they too show issues like that already (one of them stunted because of issues with the seed shell but she is doing better after I freed her)
This was a few days ago (morning of the 15th to be precise)

View attachment 2605848


This is now
View attachment 2605846View attachment 2605847

I don't understand where the issue is
I went with a bottom feed on these (on the 18th) to make sure they only take as much as they need to
It won't take much longer until they start eating themselves too

I don't understand it, I really dont
My temps are between 24.5 and 29.5 on average
Humidity in the 60s
The soil I use now is a common growing soil here (Floragard Professional Grow Mix: 85% peat, lime, perlites, NPK fertiliser with trace nutrients, additional trace nutrients, trichoderma) and many people seem to be able to grow with it, so it should be fine.

I run a Caluma 80cm×80cm×180cm tent with a Caluma Force Full Spectrum LED (150w, running at 30% atm).

I did not feed anything yet, I just gave water.

My water pH is a little high (past 8) but I keep hearing very conflicting things here ranging from "completely irrelevant because soil acts as a puffer, don't screw around with pH" to "neglectable for organic grows" to "regulate your pH to the right range regardless of medium" so I'm not sure if it even is an issue.

The last 3 months have been nothing but a short period of excitement (this time it seems to work) followed by a feeling of depression and defeat whenever I get up and check the plants because all I see is how they become progressively worse as I'm standing there, powerless, watching myself create just for it to be destroyed by something I don't understand.

Im a bit stumped as to whats causing this if your temps are 25-29 oC , i am assuming you dont have a fan blowing on them 18 hrs a day... one thing you can do is leave the soil alone , let it dry out and give it a foliar feed..foliar feeds are taken into the plant almost immediatly compared to the root route ! i gave mine 2 foliar feeds when they were smaller , i like to think it kickstarts the plant again .. diluted nutrients, root juice or clonex spray . I just mist mine , i dont have it running off the leaves .
do you have them in a tent or enclosed area? anything with holes in the side will be better , ive got one growing in a waste bin at the moment .

 

[Ninjadogma]

Hi there :)
So by the start of last December I started my first indoor run.
My only experience to that point was a summer outdoor grow on my balcony that went okish until the bud rot came, with my best plant having been a Gelato Auto.
Therefore I went for Gelato Auto again.
I planted 4 of them in 11l pot, fully watered (I was told that's how it's supposed to be done).
Apparently that was not good (and having the seedling soil turn out a gnat hotel didn't help either) because she behaved over watered.
The plants grew (except for one that never really made it far) but a weird cycle occurred.
The plants' fan leaves would always wither away.
To be precise, I would have an average set of 3 nodes with fan leaves, the lowest withered strongly, the one above beginning to go that direction as well and the too growth looks healthy at first then when outgrown enough to let the next pair shoot through, the most recent one would start with things like interveinal chlorosis.
They also didn't really grow in width, after 7 weeks I gave up on them.

This was the status when I dug them out:
View attachment 2605828
View attachment 2605829View attachment 2605830

So I figured
Try again, this time water only as much as you think the plants need
That went well for about two weeks, then this happened

View attachment 2605831


So I asked and explained that (and why) I kept the watering on the limited side
I got basically treated like and idiot because I would just let the soil turn hydrophobe and got told to water the pot fully both on her and the seedling that just popped out 3 days ago.

After a while my plants looked like this
View attachment 2605834View attachment 2605833

Because of that I got recommended to transplant the smaller one to a smaller pot/different soil
I figured it's worth a try

This was the situation a few days later
View attachment 2605841View attachment 2605842

Under the impression that they are overwatered I let them dry back real good but it wouldn't change a thing
Plant behaves like that no matter how light/heavy the pot is.
Drying back would not stop that cycle, neither would watering again when at a reasonable point.

I got recommended to do a full transplant of the big one to another soil
So I did, oddly enough the roots did not look mushy or brown at all
She didn't handle it well but seems to recover?
This was immediately after
View attachment 2605843

She lost some foliage since but this is her now
View attachment 2605844

It looks like the top growth is getting green again, I assume that is a good sign?
Anyway, that's how she looks as of now

Meanwhile the smaller one is doing something, but it doesn't seem to be something goodView attachment 2605845

I also started to raise 4 Blue Sunset Sherbert Photo Fems, they too show issues like that already (one of them stunted because of issues with the seed shell but she is doing better after I freed her)
This was a few days ago (morning of the 15th to be precise)

View attachment 2605848


This is now
View attachment 2605846View attachment 2605847

I don't understand where the issue is
I went with a bottom feed on these (on the 18th) to make sure they only take as much as they need to
It won't take much longer until they start eating themselves too

I don't understand it, I really dont
My temps are between 24.5 and 29.5 on average
Humidity in the 60s
The soil I use now is a common growing soil here (Floragard Professional Grow Mix: 85% peat, lime, perlites, NPK fertiliser with trace nutrients, additional trace nutrients, trichoderma) and many people seem to be able to grow with it, so it should be fine.

I run a Caluma 80cm×80cm×180cm tent with a Caluma Force Full Spectrum LED (150w, running at 30% atm).

I did not feed anything yet, I just gave water.

My water pH is a little high (past 8) but I keep hearing very conflicting things here ranging from "completely irrelevant because soil acts as a puffer, don't screw around with pH" to "neglectable for organic grows" to "regulate your pH to the right range regardless of medium" so I'm not sure if it even is an issue.

The last 3 months have been nothing but a short period of excitement (this time it seems to work) followed by a feeling of depression and defeat whenever I get up and check the plants because all I see is how they become progressively worse as I'm standing there, powerless, watching myself create just for it to be destroyed by something I don't understand.

I think youre having a watering issue... you just swung the other direction. Before, you were watering too often and root oxygen was suffering. You changed it up and switched to drybacks, but you're likely not using an adequate volume of water when you rewet the pot, or related to this, watering to quickly for the pot to get properly rehydrated. This causes the soil to become uneven and EC pockets to develop, which leads to things like the potassium edge burn you're seeing now. It could be overfeeding but more likely it's just the pocketing giving you grief.

 

[ChairmanFester]

Don't use pre-loaded soils, I bet that's a lot of it.
in a 5 gallon bag, I use 4 gallons of promix microrhyzzial soil. Half a handful of worm castings (just insurance) and one and a half handful bone meal. Nutes plus a little 1/4 tsp epsom salt. 3-4 day water cycle checked by hand in the soil.

 

[ChairmanFester]

I think youre having a watering issue... you just swung the other direction. Before, you were watering too often and root oxygen was suffering. You changed it up and switched to drybacks, but you're likely not using an adequate volume of water when you rewet the pot, or related to this, watering to quickly for the pot to get properly rehydrated. This causes the soil to become uneven and EC pockets to develop, which leads to things like the potassium edge burn you're seeing now. It could be overfeeding but more likely it's just the pocketing giving you grief.

Look at the soil though. Top matting and subsurface "balling" forming nodules. Something is off.

 

[carlosescobar]

how close id your light ? a 150W light at 30% probably wants to be around 12'' ...i had mine at a safe distance for too long, i didnt want to burn the leaves so i had mine around 20'' and it was too high.
I wonder if your issues are a little bit of everything, peat soil is a bit too wet, slightly too cold , light too high, and soil could be a bit too hot. you have everything you need , it just needs dialing in.
i usually mix a small bag of orchid mix into my soil helps with drainage , (i just found a bag of bonsai soil with added mychorizea which would be perfect. ) and these sort of things you can get at any garden centre.

 

[carlosescobar]

Bonsai Soil Mix | Premium Potting Mix for Bonsai Trees

Premium bonsai soil and potting mix for healthy roots, proper drainage, and moisture control. Ideal for shaping strong, thriving bonsai trees indoors or out.

growcerygardening.co.uk

 

[ChairmanFester]

The Vermiculite will end up fucking him until he can "feel" his plants. Not that it's hard or takes long to learn. Other than that it looks good. Amusingly tried to get double credit for volcanic rock though lol.

 

[carlosescobar]

How are the plants doing dude ? i was determined to get them up and running (because i made similar mistakes) so i know you just need a little tweaking...well i say a little tweaking , looking back over the last 3 years i wish i had started with photos in soil...and a general fetiliser, rather than go out and buy coco and advanced nutrients.

 

[ChairmanFester]

How are the plants doing dude ? i was determined to get them up and running (because i made similar mistakes) so i know you just need a little tweaking...well i say a little tweaking , looking back over the last 3 years i wish i had started with photos in soil...and a general fetiliser, rather than go out and buy coco and advanced nutrients.

A set up that gets tuned in nice always looks more complex than it feels when you build it doesn't it? You end up kinda fancy after a bit.

 

[Bigalmoby]

Hi there :)
So by the start of last December I started my first indoor run.
My only experience to that point was a summer outdoor grow on my balcony that went okish until the bud rot came, with my best plant having been a Gelato Auto.
Therefore I went for Gelato Auto again.
I planted 4 of them in 11l pot, fully watered (I was told that's how it's supposed to be done).
Apparently that was not good (and having the seedling soil turn out a gnat hotel didn't help either) because she behaved over watered.
The plants grew (except for one that never really made it far) but a weird cycle occurred.
The plants' fan leaves would always wither away.
To be precise, I would have an average set of 3 nodes with fan leaves, the lowest withered strongly, the one above beginning to go that direction as well and the too growth looks healthy at first then when outgrown enough to let the next pair shoot through, the most recent one would start with things like interveinal chlorosis.
They also didn't really grow in width, after 7 weeks I gave up on them.

This was the status when I dug them out:
View attachment 2605828
View attachment 2605829View attachment 2605830

So I figured
Try again, this time water only as much as you think the plants need
That went well for about two weeks, then this happened

View attachment 2605831


So I asked and explained that (and why) I kept the watering on the limited side
I got basically treated like and idiot because I would just let the soil turn hydrophobe and got told to water the pot fully both on her and the seedling that just popped out 3 days ago.

After a while my plants looked like this
View attachment 2605834View attachment 2605833

Because of that I got recommended to transplant the smaller one to a smaller pot/different soil
I figured it's worth a try

This was the situation a few days later
View attachment 2605841View attachment 2605842

Under the impression that they are overwatered I let them dry back real good but it wouldn't change a thing
Plant behaves like that no matter how light/heavy the pot is.
Drying back would not stop that cycle, neither would watering again when at a reasonable point.

I got recommended to do a full transplant of the big one to another soil
So I did, oddly enough the roots did not look mushy or brown at all
She didn't handle it well but seems to recover?
This was immediately after
View attachment 2605843

She lost some foliage since but this is her now
View attachment 2605844

It looks like the top growth is getting green again, I assume that is a good sign?
Anyway, that's how she looks as of now

Meanwhile the smaller one is doing something, but it doesn't seem to be something goodView attachment 2605845

I also started to raise 4 Blue Sunset Sherbert Photo Fems, they too show issues like that already (one of them stunted because of issues with the seed shell but she is doing better after I freed her)
This was a few days ago (morning of the 15th to be precise)

View attachment 2605848


This is now
View attachment 2605846View attachment 2605847

I don't understand where the issue is
I went with a bottom feed on these (on the 18th) to make sure they only take as much as they need to
It won't take much longer until they start eating themselves too

I don't understand it, I really dont
My temps are between 24.5 and 29.5 on average
Humidity in the 60s
The soil I use now is a common growing soil here (Floragard Professional Grow Mix: 85% peat, lime, perlites, NPK fertiliser with trace nutrients, additional trace nutrients, trichoderma) and many people seem to be able to grow with it, so it should be fine.

I run a Caluma 80cm×80cm×180cm tent with a Caluma Force Full Spectrum LED (150w, running at 30% atm).

I did not feed anything yet, I just gave water.

My water pH is a little high (past 8) but I keep hearing very conflicting things here ranging from "completely irrelevant because soil acts as a puffer, don't screw around with pH" to "neglectable for organic grows" to "regulate your pH to the right range regardless of medium" so I'm not sure if it even is an issue.

The last 3 months have been nothing but a short period of excitement (this time it seems to work) followed by a feeling of depression and defeat whenever I get up and check the plants because all I see is how they become progressively worse as I'm standing there, powerless, watching myself create just for it to be destroyed by something I don't understand.

I looked up your soil it come pre fertilized little on the hot side for seedling and young plant
IMO it’s the root of your problem not letting your roots develop
Biggest problem most people have is over watering and not letting pots dry back plant will tell you when she needs water that’s easy to tell hard to tell over watering until it shows at a young age less is more