Ice Box for A/C?

[RMCG]

Currently venting in/out across the lights, would like to be able to make the room temp a bit more adjustable without having to add A/C as I am tight on amps, can't hang one out the window and already have a chiller for the room.

I know Hydro Innovations recommends 1/4HP chiller power / 1k for hood cooling, but anyone using it just for supplemental air conditioning? sort of like a mini water cooled airhandler?

I would like to rework the nute res chiller setup and go with more of a immersion style res chiller (like their cool coil) and T off of the supply line and run an 8" icebox for cooling.

The immersion coil would go in the epicenter of a UC style DWC system, so plenty of water flow around it for heat transfer. It would take a bit of fiddling with the water flow rate through the immersion coil to keep it where it should be (68*) vs where the chiller res will be set to (55*), but I think once dialed in, it would stay fairly consistent, maybe dipping down during lights out a little.

30G insulated res for chiller
1/4HP Current Prime chiller
600+GPH pump
25' SS 'wort' chiller

8" IceBox and 8" to 6" reducer with 6" Vortex 440CFM fan attached to a day/night thermostat.

I figure the 30g res, properly insulated, could be taken down quickly and held there by the chiller. Worst case, add in an additional 6" icebox run as a recirculating heat extractor (pump hot water in, blow out hot air via existing hood ducting) on the res to lower temps down without over working the chiller.

Something like this:
[YOUTUBE]UmHp2ydAv1s[/YOUTUBE]


Looking at the 8" Ice Box as it has nearly double the surface area (more cooling) than the 6".

How much cooling is possible from a single 8" Ice box in this set up?

H.I. says a 10* water temp difference from room temp negates the heat of a 1k lamp. A 20* water temp difference actually cools the room.

Thoughts? Real world experiences?

 

[FileError404]

I haven't used them but Mystre.Pharmer cools his room with iceboxes:





Good Luck!

 

[RMCG]

I haven't used them but Mystre.Pharmer cools his room with iceboxes:





Good Luck!

Thanks. And I've read those threads too..
Dammit.
Faded.

 

[Mystre.Pharmer]

Greetings Fellow Pharmer!

I have 2 8" Magnum XXXL "The Ocho" hoods ducted together with 8" ducting then a 8" to 6" reducer on the end then a 6" Ice Box and a 6" High Output (I think its 440CFM) the air that comes out of that (the heat from the two 1k lights) is cooler than the room itself.

I also have 2 dehumidifiers in the room one is about 800-900watt on turbo!! and the other is 400-500 (i think more like low 400 watts) watts. for a max of 1400watts more

(... I keep my ballasts out side the sealed grow room)

Also I have a Hydro Innovations HydroGen (the original ones not the newer ones... which are better in my opinion but I'm basing that off of reading the new features). I put it on high flame with high water so it's only on for seconds at a time. but keep in mind that burning propane raises humidity, hence the two dehumidifiers.

so, to take care of the rest of my heat. (can be found in my second journal) I use another 6" High Output fan attached to an Ice Box at the roof height. its plugged into my CHHC-1 controller as the A/C.

I bought the 8" hoods instead of 6" (the size of my current equipment) because I want to eventually upgrade to 8" Ice Boxes and 8" High Output fans. But currently my set-up is great :). its very controllable. I set my JBJ 1 HP 230V Commercial Arctica Titanium Chiller to 58F but just recently set it to 55F with better results (its pretty warm out now). My room temp I keep at 80 and it might hit 81 for a minute every once and a while, which is still perfectly acceptable for a sealed room with lots of CO2.

so going by their statement about 10F diff negates a 1k and 20F diff can be used as A/C. during hot summer, I run water at 55F and room temps of 80F for a difference of 25F difference and I use it as A/C. however my "A/C" isn't always on maybe if i ran my a/c constant during light on I could lower my chiller 5 degrees? I'm glad I upgraded to a 1HP for my set-up though, I don't think anything less (meaning a 3/4HP) chiller would be able to handle all the heat in the summer.

In the winter I can keep my chiller temp lower (like maybe 5-7 degrees less than now) but obviously heat is easier to deal with in winter rather than summer ;)



I would recommend more than 1/4HP per 1k tho. I think that's definitely a minimum. a 1/2hp per 1k is more comfortable in my mind, but I run a 1hp for ~3,500watts ROOM watts (2 1k lights and lots of de-humidification... also that a high estimate). Everything that uses electricity creates heat.

some math off the top of my head that may not be correct, but should be close ;):
1k watts=3,600BTU of heat
2k=7,200BTU of heat
my two dehumidifiers: ~1,250watts (not constantly!!)... 1.25x 3600= 4500 BTU of heat

4500+7200=11,700BTU of heat at max (both dehumidifiers on at once, doesn't happen that long or often)

My Chiller is rated at 12,000 BTU/h (5.5AMPS @ 230V) so its capable of cooling my sealed room of 11,700BTU max it runs cooler than that though. because my de-humidification isn't constantly on, my set-up is capable of taking care of the additional heat from my CO2 burner.

..the only other things in the room that use electricity are my oscillating fans, and very minimal at that.


... This post got long, lol sorry. I hope I helped. maybe answered a question somewhere in this post haha. if not feel free to stop by my journal :)

Happy Pharming!
-Mystre.Pharmer

 

[FileError404]

Hey Mystre!

Your threads are tough on my internet connection :)

What kind of dehumidifiers are you using? Prices? Thinking of getting a Driz Air. Very pricey, though.

Thanks!

 

[RMCG]

I am planning in keeping the hood venting in place with no IB's on those. Just a heat exchanger to deal with some of the radiant heat(5*-10*).

Might be going the DIY route vs HI's 8" IB.

Stealing some ideas from the PC overclocking crowd.

 

[fatman]

Mystre,

Wow, such wastage of watts. Do you actually know how little difference there is between a window air conditioner and a dehumidifier. A window air conditioner has an extractor coil, a condenso coil, a compressor and two fans. An air conditioners #1 fan blows warm moist air through the cold extractor and therefore water condenses on its surface and absorbs heat it send to its condensor. The once moist air is blown into the room as cool air, the heat is extracted at the condensor by outside air and blown out by fan #2 IE it is an dehumidifier that exhausts heat out doors. A dehumifier draws moist warm through the extractor so that the moisture condenses. The now cool air is blown through the condensor where it is rewarmed and re enters the room. Ie the air conditioner cools the room and dehumififies. The dehumidifier just dehumidifies.

If you wish to improve your set up, use a window air conditioner set inside the room as a dehumifier. It uses the same wattage and cost 1/3 as much. You simply need to set the air conditioner so that one side of the rear is lower so all water drains from one spot. Use a simple humidistat as a controller. Use a window air conditioner for cooling.

It appears your just dumpig your heat into another room rather than outside so as long as you are exhausting its heat out side of the room it will work as well as your watt wasting system. Unless you are putting your lights down to two or three inches below the plants rather than 6 inches or so then there is no real gain to using water chiiled lighting especially considering the high prices and poor quality of nearly all commonly sold chillers. Air cooled tubes are nearly always good enough.

If you think you need a chiller simply buy a large window air conditioner and buy a GOOD Titanium chiller heat exchanger on eBay. If you want a top class chiller, buy a refrigerant filter, sight glass and a haed pressure device. Then the air coniditioner can run all year around, sitting outside like a split unit.

Yes, I imagine your system works, but it is absurdly wasteful energy wise and just directs the heat to another part of your house where you will then have to deal with it twice.

Even consider the simple fact that a dehudimifier costs over 3 times as much as a comparable sized Sears window air conditioner. Most chillers have very small titanium heta exchangers, no filter, site glass or head prsssure device so the sit inside and simply remove heat from tour water and dump it into the air so tha you then have to pay for the energy to remove the excess heat in the air.

 

[RMCG]

Well due to the RIDICULOUS weather we have had recently, I had to forgo this little project and grab an A/C.

It wasn't me that caused the substation to blow up though.
:confused0059:

I will come back around to this shortly, as I f'ed up(in a good way). This location actually has a 1/3HP chiller and I would still like to test out immersion res chillers and water cooled air handlers.

 

[fatman]

Well due to the RIDICULOUS weather we have had recently, I had to forgo this little project and grab an A/C.

It wasn't me that caused the substation to blow up though.
:confused0059:

I will come back around to this shortly, as I f'ed up (in a good way). This location actually has a 1/3HP chiller and I would still like to test out immersion res chillers and water cooled air handlers.

Can you at least locate the chiller outside during summer use so that all the heat created as well as the heat moved from the grow room will be dumped outside.

 

[RMCG]

Can you at least locate the chiller outside during summer use so that all the heat created as well as the heat moved from the grow room will be dumped outside.

Was planning on building a box (with a fan) for the back end of it and tying it into the existing light ducting.

 

[DeRail]

I thought of using a heater core from a truck or a small car radiator and building a box or fitting it to some type of plastic container.

 

[fatman]

As long as the water flowing through the set up is not a solution that will come in contact with the plants that would work fine. You can buy titanium tubing for a heat exchanger in a reservoir and just used RO water flowing through the heater core. hose and the titanium tubing in the reservoir. This would keep the lead and copper from the core or aluminum from a core from entering your nutrient water.

 

[RMCG]

I thought of using a heater core from a truck or a small car radiator and building a box or fitting it to some type of plastic container.

Exactly. The PC Overclockers are using Bonneville and Chevelle heater cores (~$22.00) for radiators.

I will post up a spread sheet that I snagged that has all cores with dimensions and the corresponding vehicle model.

 

[RMCG]

As long as the water flowing through the set up is not a solution that will come in contact with the plants that would work fine. You can buy titanium tubing for a heat exchanger in a reservoir and just used RO water flowing through the heater core. hose and the titanium tubing in the reservoir. This would keep the lead and copper from the core or aluminum from a core from entering your nutrient water.

I was planning on using a dedicated 30 g res for it. Potentially a glycol mix or maybe just 'water wetter' with RO.
Most of the heater cores and even the ice boxes are copper or copper aluminum mixes.

 

[fatman]

The best ones are from large construction equipment, semi trucks and busses. The motors will not be of much use though unless you want to buy a large AC to DC invertor.

 

[RMCG]

Heater core cross reference spreadsheets.

 

[RMCG]

The best ones are from large construction equipment, semi trucks and busses. The motors will not be of much use though unless you want to buy a large AC to DC invertor.

Marine A/C's work to, just not for what I am looking to do here.

 

[motta-tokka]

Ok now the only reason you would want to do this is if you had a sealed grow and running co2. When you run a sealed grow you must either have two fans, 1 for the lights (basically outside the grow, going to your lights, back to the outside, and 1 for the carbon filter that stays in the grow. OR, a variation like my setup currently..

carbon filter-424 cfm fan-going to the light(s) going to the icebox. The icebox is essentially a radiator. Well that stuff coming out is hot, unless you cool it with water. The problem is with more heat, the water in return gets hot and then you have issues again. So you must keep that res decently cool. It does work nicely though. I do not have a/c in the grow but the chiller for the rdwc reservoir is currently good enough to keep things in check. I should be running another chiller to the lights reservoir to help things even better in check, temp wise. This is the problem that fatman has which I understand his point, is with TWO chillers, it starts becoming nuts with watts and coolers but if you find a balance, you should be able to get it right. Check out my RDWC thread as this is my current setup as well.

Efficiency is what we are trying to accomplish in the first place with this method. Lets see if it bites us in the :icon_animal26:

 

[RMCG]

Ok now the only reason you would want to do this is if you had a sealed grow and running co2. When you run a sealed grow you must either have two fans, 1 for the lights (basically outside the grow, going to your lights, back to the outside, and 1 for the carbon filter that stays in the grow. OR, a variation like my setup currently..

carbon filter-424 cfm fan-going to the light(s) going to the icebox. The icebox is essentially a radiator. Well that stuff coming out is hot, unless you cool it with water. The problem is with more heat, the water in return gets hot and then you have issues again. So you must keep that res decently cool. It does work nicely though. I do not have a/c in the grow but the chiller for the rdwc reservoir is currently good enough to keep things in check. I should be running another chiller to the lights reservoir to help things even better in check, temp wise. This is the problem that fatman has which I understand his point, is with TWO chillers, it starts becoming nuts with watts and coolers but if you find a balance, you should be able to get it right. Check out my RDWC thread as this is my current setup as well.

Efficiency is what we are trying to accomplish in the first place with this method. Lets see if it bites us in the :icon_animal26:

Or a properly sized chiller.

With vented hoods, you are removing ~50% or more of the heat.

At this time I am not looking at attaching IB's to the light hoods.

If a DIY 6"x12" heater core or 8" IceBox with a 440CFM fan can maintain a consistent temp, using an existing chiller that would be ideal, with only a few slight mods (insulated 30G res, immersion chiller for nute res, and a heat exchanger), then it would be 'worth it', as water cooling is more efficient than air cooling.

I understand how water cooling works, just not sure 'how much' a single 8" Ice box is capable of cooling, efficiency, etc. ie if chiller water is coming in @ 55* and 85* ambient air is being blown through the exchanger, whats the T-differential of outputted air? 5* or 20* drop resulting in 80* or 65* output air?

I realize if you need to remove 10k BTU/hr from the air, you need a chiller to handle that load and you have to 'do something' with the heat removed.



Link to your thread?

 

[Mystre.Pharmer]

Mystre,

Wow, such wastage of watts. Do you actually know how little difference there is between a window air conditioner and a dehumidifier. A window air conditioner has an extractor coil, a condenso coil, a compressor and two fans. An air conditioners #1 fan blows warm moist air through the cold extractor and therefore water condenses on its surface and absorbs heat it send to its condensor. The once moist air is blown into the room as cool air, the heat is extracted at the condensor by outside air and blown out by fan #2 IE it is an dehumidifier that exhausts heat out doors. A dehumifier draws moist warm through the extractor so that the moisture condenses. The now cool air is blown through the condensor where it is rewarmed and re enters the room. Ie the air conditioner cools the room and dehumififies. The dehumidifier just dehumidifies.

Hey fatman. yes, i know an A/C dehumidifies as well. but that's a good description for people who don't know

If you wish to improve your set up, use a window air conditioner set inside the room as a dehumifier. It uses the same wattage and cost 1/3 as much. You simply need to set the air conditioner so that one side of the rear is lower so all water drains from one spot. Use a simple humidistat as a controller. Use a window air conditioner for cooling.

lol is that paragraph a recommendation for me? I would never put a window A/C in a sealed room. lol. that's silly. Have you seen my set up? you think saving $100 dollars is that big a deal when i spent as much as i did? and anyway one of my dehumidifiers cost under $100 dollars on sale (extra 20 i think otherwise, and its a good quality too, both are well built). your saying I can get a GOOD QUALITY window A/C unit for $33.33 dollars! awesome! sign me up for one for my office. (to be fair though i think i paid $160 (at most) for my analog hydrofarm dehumidifier (when you buy as much as i did at once, you get a pretty awesome hydro store discount lol)

why go cheap on your cooling!? I would never pick up a cheapo window a/c (or any cheapo A/C) and depend on it for my crop. what about when it breaks? i can run cold city water through my iceboxes if something horrible happens to my chiller (heaven forbid!) I would just need to close some valves and open some others and tada! cold water and A/C without a chiller. Having back up fail safes is comforting when people depend on you.

It appears your just dumpig your heat into another room rather than outside so as long as you are exhausting its heat out side of the room it will work as well as your watt wasting system. Unless you are putting your lights down to two or three inches below the plants rather than 6 inches or so then there is no real gain to using water chiiled lighting especially considering the high prices and poor quality of nearly all commonly sold chillers. Air cooled tubes are nearly always good enough.

Since earlier you seemed to know how A/C works... the object of using water to cool is because: One, water is more efficient at extracting heat than air is. you seem fairly intelligent so you should know that. and secondly to have that water move the heat somewhere else more convenient. why would an A/C be more efficient for me? it would be WAY more inconvenient and would of been more expensive to replace or add another A/C to the house. You think I exhaust my heat into my house or something? i'm a little confused i think you might of read something wroung. and yes, My lights are MUCH closer to the plants than probably any air cooled persons set up is. my plants can touch the glass (they don't touch it though) and not be to hot! although they would get light burn from my 1k bulb lol. it's what running a perfect environment is all about.

If you think you need a chiller simply buy a large window air conditioner and buy a GOOD Titanium chiller heat exchanger on eBay. If you want a top class chiller, buy a refrigerant filter, sight glass and a haed pressure device. Then the air coniditioner can run all year around, sitting outside like a split unit.

things aren't always cut and dry. every situation is different maybe some people are stealthy, or some are located in a weird or small spot. not everyone is comfortable wiring stuff or putting things together themselves. they make products that have warranties and designed for specific functions for a reason. but good idea, although i would never do it. ChillKing i think makes chillers that are converted window A/C units.

Yes, I imagine your system works, but it is absurdly wasteful energy wise and just directs the heat to another part of your house where you will then have to deal with it twice.

LOL NOT "absurdly wasteful energy" you don't understand my set up fully, and that cool. I never really, even in my journals, explain/talk about what my basement is set up like or even what the door to my grow looks like for that matter lol. I own but i never take security lightly. I may be legal but it doesn't protect you from thieves. my set up is a lot more efficient than your thinking... i dont have to deal with the heat twice that would be moronic. like putting a big A/C unit in a basement to cool a room only to have to use the houses A/C to cool the basement A/C lol that makes no sense (u should put the bong down j/k hahahaha who am i kidding, pack another one ;) )

My system is awesome, and I love it. A sealed room isn't for everyone tho (nor is perpetual, which is what im trying now... its hard to have everything in order on time and rooted etc. etc.). it takes a lot of work to build and planning. I can get over 2 lbs a light and I still have room for improvement! and that's the truth :) (i still have nutrient things to dial in, i wanna switch brands here soon too) having perfect control over your environment makes it easier to grow a real quality product. people (including myself) depend on my buds for medicine, I want to be able to give em some good medicine.

Even consider the simple fact that a dehudimifier costs over 3 times as much as a comparable sized Sears window air conditioner. Most chillers have very small titanium heta exchangers, no filter, site glass or head prsssure device so the sit inside and simply remove heat from tour water and dump it into the air so tha you then have to pay for the energy to remove the excess heat in the air.

lol when you actually start growing, you'll realize that spending an extra $200 bucks or whatever your trying to say i did, is worth the peace of mind! definitely. I use dehumidifiers to dehumidify, know why? its what they were designed to do, and i know they will do what they are supposed to. dealing with bud rot or powdery mildew isn't something I want to ever deal with. so spending a couple bucks ain't no thing when it keeps you from worrying.

My electric bill is just under $300 a month. that's with my grow, and a two bedroom 3 bath house. electric stove (and we cook ALL the time too AND bake a lot too!) T.v's, 1 desktop gaming pc (lotsa watts there) and a laptop, and a whole house A/C to boot. that's not bad in my opinion for growing ~2lbs a month AND 2 people living here. I give my meds out for a VERY ridiculously low reasonable price, and free if they can't afford it at the time. i'm not in this for the money. I love growing and smoking myself :)



lol this post got long lol oh well.


Happy Pharming!
-Mystre.Pharmer