Lets have a discussion about leds!

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Lost

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Please do not move this thread to the LED thread, so I am not supposed to post there and I do not want my posts edited. Lets keep it civilized :)

Great article about the issues with leds and their intensity.



A New Breed of LED: Intensified Lighting for Indoor Growing
by Brian Chiang and Josh Puckett
2010-08-01
PrintEmailThe Spectral Revolution
In “LED Technology: Paving the Way for a Spectral Revolution” (July Maximum Yield) we discussed how LEDs may transform the way gardeners light their grow rooms. The biggest advantage of advanced LEDs is their ability to deliver wavelength-specific light for plants in different growing conditions.

By mixing various LED chips, a complex and unique light spectrum can be created. Although we know that plants benefit mostly from the blue and red parts of the spectrum, making the best light is not as simple as randomly placing blue and red chips on a panel. There are specific wavelengths that are ideal for plant growth. As research advances, growers will better understand which spectrums can accelerate or slow down growth, improve yields or morph plants. This is only the beginning of the revolution.

Light Intensity Matters
Photosynthesis is the process plants use to convert light into food. In addition to the spectrum of the light received, the intensity of the light also plays a large role in this vital process.

Photosynthesis usually occurs in the leaves of the plants. The green color of the leaves comes from chlorophyll, the pigment that absorbs red and blue light energy and reflects green. Chlorophyll is found in the interior of the leaves in structures called chloroplasts. Light must pass through several layers before it can reach the chlorophyll. Even then, the chlorophyll only serves to harvest the light photons. The photon is passed on from molecule to molecule until it is trapped by photosynthetic reaction centers located deep within the chloroplast. These reaction centers then take the light energy to be used in the photosynthetic process.


Effective LEDs are able to deliver intense light that penetrates down to the lowest levels on a plant.
A reaction center intercepts only around one photon every second, so chlorophyll’s ability to capture light is critical. The more photons there are, the more chances the chlorophyll will have to transfer the photons to a reaction center. This is where light intensity becomes an issue. More intense light means that more photons are being emitted, which increases the probability that a photon will reach a reaction center. Take a simple ring toss for example: the more rings you throw, the higher are your chances that you will hit a target bottle. In the same way, plants benefit from higher light intensity because a higher concentration of photons results in higher photosynthetic productivity.

The “More” Factor
Heat from broadband sources has long limited the amount of light supplied to plants. Such light, including the sun, emits more of the light spectrum than what is required for photosynthesis. Much of this light gives off heat, which is crippling to plant performance if the temperature of the environment is elevated beyond what plants can tolerate. Artificial sunlight sources create heat due to their inefficiency in converting energy from electricity to light. If the lights are placed too close to the grow area, the plants will burn from convection or radiation.
This is not an issue for LEDs. The ability of LEDs to specify wavelengths eliminates the excess light that contributes to unwanted heat. LEDs are a naturally cool light that efficiently converts electricity to light. Growers will be able to place more LEDs over their plants to give that extra boost of light without having to worry about heat.

So what’s the problem?
If this is the case, why haven’t most growers moved on to LEDs? Simply put, some LED grow lights don’t have enough light intensity for photosynthesis to occur.
Although LEDs have the capability to specify wavelengths, some LED lights just aren’t manufactured for effective plant growth. These fixtures are built with an LED die placed in a reflective cavity, bonded to two electrical contacts, and then sealed by an epoxy or plastic lens. The LEDs are then assembled by sparsely populating single LED chips over sheet metal and secured in a panel. The goal of this light is to provide broad, widespread light for general illumination purposes, or to use as decorative color changing Christmas lights. However, this bulky packaging limits the amount of LED lights that can be placed over plants, especially when the fixture is almost as large as the grow area! If growers can’t use more LED lights over the grow area, the light intensity issue of these LED fixtures has to be remedied.

General consensus is that LEDs do work, but the overall intensity of the light is not enough. LEDs cannot be used to grow tall plants because of this shallow penetration. Leaves closer to the roots will wither over time. Most LED lights have to work in conjunction with T5 lights, or lower power HID lights in order to be effective.
A New Breed of LED
Now half a century after LEDs were first introduced, a new LED platform is finally here. A scientific breakthrough has resulted in a material that dissipates heat rapidly. When LED chips are placed on this material, they are able to draw heat away quickly and efficiently. This advancement enables LED dies to be placed in close proximity to form a dense “matrix LED” platform. This platform can populate more than 20 LED chips in an area no greater than a dime. What results is directional light that focuses on a much smaller area through an expertly designed reflector. This compact LED provides cool but intense light through this reflector for more photons. In addition, growers can place multiple panels of these lights over their plants. With more light that provides more photons for better photosynthesis, growers can expect a boost in plant performance.

The difference in the two packaging approaches for LEDs is seen in the simple illustration below. The picture demonstrates an analogy using two different nozzles mounted on the same garden hose. On the left, water sprinkles out of many tiny pores from the sunflower-type nozzle. In contrast, the picture on the right shows a single jet of water from an industrial pistol nozzle. The sprayer on the left merely mists the surface of the plants while the steady stream on the right cuts straight down to the soil. Although the amount of water is the same for both hose heads, the nozzle from the right picture is drastically more effective in reaching plant roots.

Let’s apply the garden hose example to LEDs. Imagine the water as light. The typical LED light has tiny chips spread over a wide area similar to the individual holes that water trickles through on the left picture with the sunflower nozzle, and puts out equally weak light. Conversely, imagine if the light has many LED chips densely grouped together to send out an intense beam that behaves like the jet stream shooting out of the pistol nozzle in the right picture. Instead of sprinkling misty light onto the plant’s surface, you would be able to inject light straight down to allow photosynthesis to also happen in the plant’s lower tiers. With more of these lights over a grow area, all parts of the plants will be able to carry out photosynthesis effectively!


LEDs and Tomato Plants
In a lab setting, we tested the effectiveness of this new LED platform over tomato plants in a four by four foot growing area. Six LED lights totaling around 200 watts were hung over nine tomato plants. The lights were scheduled for an 18 hour on and six hour off cycle, and growth of the tomatoes was monitored for two months.

After a month the tomatoes began to flower under the LED lights. The light was able to penetrate down to the lowest levels of the plant, giving the amount of light needed for photosynthesis. In six weeks, the tomatoes began producing fruit even in the bottom tiers of the plant. After two months of testing, the tomato fruits closest to the roots were abundant and healthy.

In a separate experiment, we doubled the intensity of the LED lights to about 400 watts over the tomatoes in their vegetative phase. As with the previous experiment, the testing was done in a controlled four by four foot growing area and closely monitored.

Although the experiment is still in progress, plant growth is evident. Leaves grew wider with a darker green color indicating high levels of chlorophyll even in the lowest tier of the plants. With this added intensity, the tomato plants began to flower in just two weeks. The flowering stage for these tomatoes began early in comparison to the plants in the previous experiment, which began to flower after four weeks. It is clear that these tomato plants benefited from the extra boost of light.

Conclusion
The new dense matrix LED platform revolutionizes the horticulture industry. Growers can now deliver depth penetration that plants need. This advancement provides more intense light, producing tall and healthy plants. LEDs are naturally cool so growers can add even more LEDs to increase the light intensity and supply optimal light to plants. This platform carries plants from vegetation to flowering and fruiting, without the need for additional supplement lighting. The light penetrating capabilities in combination with the spectral offerings of LEDs will give growers even more control over how their plants grow.
 
L

Lost

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So we have some good take offs from this article.

Leds are good for smaller grows where yield is not the main goal. Heat and being easily hidable are pros for the LEDS but if you are looking to grow big buds, this is not the best choise. Not a bad choise, but not the best.

For scrog applications leds are also a great possibility if electricty and heat are issues. Its a great hobbiest light but you will never be a commercial grower with them.

Lastly, the article points out a really good point, penetration. They are not intense enough to get the depth penetration. That is why bud size with leds is limited, as comparted to 600 and 1000 hps light sources.
 
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edux10

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Leds are good for smaller grows where yield is not the main goal. Heat and being easily hidable are pros for the LEDS but if you are looking to grow big buds, this is not the best choise. Not a bad choise, but not the best.

For scrog applications leds are also a great possibility if electricty and heat are issues. Its a great hobbiest light but you will never be a commercial grower with them.

.


I would think that is why they arent catching on. The "beginner grower" is 9 times outta 10 limited greatly by budget. No one is going to sink 10k into a room when they dont know what are doing. Most beginners, like very beginner, no expericence, never grew before, want to get by as cheaply as possible. It is basically a hobby at that point and if it blooms into something where they can make some extra money that is good and all, but they are not expecting much besides personal smoke and maybe a little (very little, lol) for friends.

LEDs are very high priced right now. So, as a light source they may be perfect for the grower that is just starting and doesnt want to worry about heat and a large electric bill but once they see the price, their mind goes elsewere. They can easy get a 150w WITH FANS, and worry about upgrading to a bigger light later if they contiune. Really big investment aimed at people who dont really have a lot of money to start out usually.

Now there are some first time growers that do have the money to invest. But they are thinking more on the commercial side of things already. They have x amount of money and they want to quadruple it. Again, this leaves LEDs out of the picture because there is NO WAY to light a 10x10 room effecently with LEDs.

I really think that the selling point for "it will save you so much money over the course of 5 years that it pays for itself" really doesnt work either. People are thinking about being as effeciant as they can over the course of 3 months and going from there more than they are making plans for the next 5 years or whatever. Also, anyone that is not in a med state is REALLY not making long term plant, that is the nature of the biz there, lots of people are looking to grow for a half a year then chill out.

Pretty much every selling point of LEDs i can think of done really make much sense to me. Maybe if a 600w equivelent cost as much as a 600w or less it would be more of a consideration but untill then i will happily work with HID lights. And with HID there is alway room to expand. If i waned to grab a 600watter now, then in a year as my operation grows, i can add another of a few more and it will all work find. If i wanted to step up my LED to 2 600s i would have to sell the LED on craigslist or whatever and it seems like a hard sell to me.
 
Papa

Papa

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For scrog applications leds are also a great possibility if electricty and heat are issues.



that is your keystone, Lost.

like any light source, to be effective you must design the grow to suit. you wouldn't use T-5s like you would 1,000HPS, and you wouldn't use CFLs like MH. every source has different characteristics. to be effective, one must understand the characteristics (including limitations) of the light source you're using and design your grow based upon those parameters.

with the current state of technology of LEDs available on the market, scrogs and sea of green grows seem, imo, like your best shot of utilizing what they have to offer.

about the stupidest thing i've ever seen is a "vertical LED light". it's plain old trying to jam a square peg in a round hole . . . or, to put it another way, plain old snake oil.

so, you're not allowed to post in the LED forum also? i used to post advice there, but as soon as one of the advertisers learned that i was a lighting professional and was critical of their posts, i too was told that i was not welcome to post in that forum and my posts were deleted.







Papa
 
greenthumbdanny

greenthumbdanny

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Please do not move this thread to the LED thread, so I am not supposed to post there and I do not want my posts edited. Lets keep it civilized :)

:giggle That is funny shit lost>>>I dont get it<<<<who told you not to post in the LED forums???

:passingjoint:

gtd
 
motherlode

motherlode

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for me its about how much meds I can grow with my space and my medical plant limit.

there was a thread where one of ledgirls light grew somewhere around 160 grams and she compared that to unit to a 600 watt light.

if thats all I got out of a 600 watt light I may as well throw all my shit out and buy weed at a club.

lets be serious about yield per sqaure foot of canopy, because in the end I dont care how much meds I grow per watt!
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

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i've been researching LED's, and it seems like there is a lot of misinformation going etc... but from what we can see from test grows, LED's may outperform HPS by roughly 20% watt for watt, given a good quality LED light (claims of 3x performance are unfounded and usually given by some chinese seller accompanied by talk of "spectrum").

So, with a 20% increase, with price being about 1000% higher than HPS watt per watt, its up to the grower to make the call, if their operation will be long term enough to "get savings." The thing that is holding me back on LED's, is lack of quality standards (ie: 1 company uses cheap LED's to save money, but perform a lot worse that higher quality LED's), "spectrum" arguments (which is really the good spectrum for LED's? we've all seen the charts), and that the technology is changing so fast, what you buy today may be outdated in 6 months.

Once I can start seeing 1.5gpw/2gpw, then I will probably likely start emptying my pocketbook.
 
K

kuz

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For 20 years we keep hearing about the latest led breakthrough.

The problem is heat, the article lacks details on the heat dissipating material. Intel supposedly developed something a few years ago to mount computer chips on. Anybody ever seen one of these lights? I have seen an intense led light, nine - 30 watt led's. The heat was also intense, and it would fry the light if you didnt put a fan on it.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I don't know enough about LEDs to be able to say anything about a heat issue. I didn't think they made much heat, though, and I've been under the impression that, along with wavelength, the key to getting them to a really comparable stage is intensity, and that can be done by the right lenses. I haven't paid much more attention than that, because right now outside of HID lighting I rely on readily available CFL and tube fluoros for my indoor lighting needs.
I was told by ledgrl that If I posted in her forums, she would take it to the mods and have me banned. :(

Edit - same here my posts were edited and or deleted.

Mods - please delete entire post this as soon as your done checking my pm's and verifying (or I can PM them to you if you need). Im not here to air dirty laurdry, but to establish what leds are currently suited for and what they are not.
Yeah, good Christ. Many of us have our minds open, but at the same time do have the ability to read things outside these forums. Squelching almost entirely the ability to discuss any technology freely and without fear of retribution cripples the site as a place useful for anything *other* than pimping seeds and related products. It also makes suspect those who do the squelching, as TG pointed out in another thread.

Is that all this place is good for...??
 
K

kuz

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They make heat its just concentrated in a different place. The light I mentioned was as hot as a hid probably, you wouldnt want to touch it for sure. Everybody wants led street lights, but nobody want a street light that needs a fan. For what we do with all the fans it might work. The technology is out there, but for real intensity it takes clusters of 20 or 30 watt bulbs vs 2 or 3 watts.
 
convex

convex

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Personally, I wish the vendors would stop advertising equivalent watts.

It can be extremely misleading, especially to neophytes - just look at the confused posts for CFL's wattage here.

I would much like to see a true side by side - 400 or 600 actual LED watts vs. HID (or T5 even) of same wattage and canopy area.

Cheers
 
K

kuz

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I was just talking with the guy that had the light i'm talking about, and they were only 10 watt led's. He seems to think there would be no problem to remote mount the circuit board to keep it cool and dry, just an idea but I'm good with t5's and hid. Dont know what spectrum they are available in either.

9, 10 watt bulbs. It was amazingly bright for 90 watts. I was impressed when i thought it was 270 watts.
 
M

monkey5

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Squarepusher, Here:Once I can start seeing 1.5gpw/2gpw, then I will probably likely start emptying my pocketbook...What i got out of all the LED threads i've looked at might be More/not the same as/different/than what you look for...I want Killer! Top Shelf Flowers are my end goal! Lets say after all the reading i have now an understanding of making/re-creating in my room..the desert! Or a tropical climate...For me evan 1 gram per watt of Top Shelf Flowers might just be what i'm looking for in my room! That set up might have to be not just LED's! I'm looking to re-create Sweet spots! monkey5
 
X

Xceptional

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this is such a dead conversation i'm really tired of hearing it. here is how you sum up LED fr now and until penetration and cost decrease

it's a good choice for someone with money to blow on start up costs AND has low yield expectations (not lbs but oz's) PERIOD NOW CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM?

I understand people have invested interest in this technology but it's the same convo over and over nothing really changes.
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

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this is such a dead conversation i'm really tired of hearing it. here is how you sum up LED fr now and until penetration and cost decrease

it's a good choice for someone with money to blow on start up costs AND has low yield expectations (not lbs but oz's) PERIOD NOW CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM?

I understand people have invested interest in this technology but it's the same convo over and over nothing really changes.

i dont think this is true, LED could possible now even yield better than HPS (test growers showing 1+ GPW rather common).

So, lets look at a 30,000 watt HPS grow, could maybe do that with 25,000 LED and yield the same. but yes, the startup cost is gunna be assloads more with LED.
 
K

kuz

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this is such a dead conversation i'm really tired of hearing it. here is how you sum up LED fr now and until penetration and cost decrease

it's a good choice for someone with money to blow on start up costs AND has low yield expectations (not lbs but oz's) PERIOD NOW CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM?

I understand people have invested interest in this technology but it's the same convo over and over nothing really changes.

"Conclusion
The new dense matrix LED platform revolutionizes the horticulture industry."

didnt you read the article. lol. I know, i've heard it too many times also. Did i miss it or did they fail to let us know where we can get this new breed of light?
 
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