How can I build a 24 light board?

[greenthumbdanny]

Sorry for jumping to a conclusion there Danny. Im sure you can understand how that happened. My apologies though. Im curious as to why you think Olyver is the only safe way to go, and why another electrican is merely "playing with fire" and "cut(ting) corners"? Im going to hit Olyver up through his site and see what he has to offer. While DX is ridiculously inexpensive, I really dont see any red flags with him. The 120 outlets wired for 240 are what some people want, and those people fully understand how to employ a 5-15 outlet with 240 power. He explains what is going on with them on his site so only a novice would plug a 120 ballast into it. Hes actually saving u money if your local store wont swap 120 cords for 240, mine will so i could care less. I have no idea how costly Olyver is there Danny. My only thought on it is hes got be more expensive than DX b/c DX is sooo inexpensive. The parts used by both seem to be of comparable quality, and they seem to offer identical services. The only difference I can tell is that Olyver has gained quite a following on this site. Im all ears as to why Olyver is better and if you/ or Olyver himself can make a compelling argument for it I can assure you Ill have no problem covering Olyver's bill. My opinion is that this should be cake work for any experienced electrician and acting like you need a specific guy to do it is ridiculous. Id love to hear why Im wrong.

http://www.nowirenuts.ca/
Its self explanatory really:) The pictures alone = QUALITY
>>Your average qualified licensed electrician can install your equipment but that is about the extent of it:) Designing this shit to perfection is a complete element of its own bro<<Again depending on what your looking for??This is just the way I am going to go when i get my flip box designed:) no cutting corners on my end.

If you look at that crap job picture that UCtestin posted that is exactly what I am NOT looking for.

gtd:passingjoint:

 

[ballzdeep]

@GTD At least we can agree on one thing. That homemade "board" by UC is a steaming pile of shit. DIY doesnt have to be like that. That is most certainly cutting corners, how much did UC save by not buying an enclosure to house everything in? Definitely worth spending the extra dough on enclosures for the outlets and guts. Unfortunately your argument for Olyver makes about as much sense as your need to constantly use emoticons. DX's site is marketed to the masses who want 30 and 50 amp controllers. Not 100 amps+ like Olyver's site, Im sure you would agree that most growers do not need a controller of that magnitude. It appears that even you do not own a controller of this size. It seems to me that you have been misled by the marketing on DX's site. At dxhydro.com at the top of the page on the upper left side is a controller built by DX that is of the quality and advanced nature of an Olyver product, and it looks to be pretty much identical to what Olyver builds. Here is part of an email from DX explaining options:
Options:
Onboard digital timer $50; Dual timers $80
–another option is to “flip” the outputs on a 12/12h cycle so that 12 lights are on at a time on alternating cycles Great if you are limited on power.
Power meter $80 (special order item because my stock meter are limited to 100 amps)
High-temp cutoff or fan control. Two stage ‘stat, agricultural rated/waterproof -$80 (additional cost if we add relays for AC or other large load control)
Anything else –flow switch, fire alarm, intruder alarm cutoff, whatever you can conceive…
Maybe we should arrange a time to talk on the phone and come up with a design that will do exactly what you need it to do.

Seems to me like he is very similar to Olyver in design characteristics and options, which is the only part of your argument that even seems to hold water, but in reality it does not. Your thinking that spending more money equals higher quality is flawed, especially concerning grow equipment. Do your research before you attest that someone is "playing with fire" and "cutting corners", because frankly, you dont know what your talking about. That being said I wholeheartedly believe that Olyver is a great way to go, Im just going to try DX out. If I encounter any problems or the panel is not to my liking I will eat crow and explain my issues on here. You shouldnt be so arrogant about your grow knowledge, after viewing that 10k room you built w/ magnums, your far from the be all end all authority on indoor growing. Not trying to be harsh, but after enduring your pompous responses I felt it was well warranted.

@UCTestin
That was brave of you to post that pic, took some balls to post something that you know is crap. And thanks again for your help, I now know completely understand how
my mlc-24 works and how other 80+ amp controllers work. Now i feel that I can personally repair everything that i use except for fans. Thanks

Ill post some pics after I get my board from DX and Ill have an electrician take a look at it and let you know what he thinks.

 

[Olyver]

There is very little similarities to what I build. There is no "quickwire" connections to the receptacles. Stranded wire instead of solid copper hook-up wire is what I use. All wires are connected with terminal lugs. I use SIEMENS breakers, loadcenters, relays, contactors, PLCs, etc, NOT SquareD. The only wall-switch style digital timer to use is AUBE, all the rest have high failure rates. There are no wirenuts inside anything I build. When contactors are enclosed in a wall mount enclosure, there should be some form of venting or internal fan. The only similarity is that they are loadcenters. If you are going to purchase a loadcenter, ask the manufacturer to show you internal photos. When you see internal views, look for how wires are terminated and how the loadcenter is attached to the gangboxes. Threaded pipe nipples join enclosures to gangboxes, make sure you see bushings as well as locknuts. It's hard to notice in the pix, but every unit I build is wall-mountable. I see no brackets on those other loadcenters.

It is eay to build a loadcenter with a few contactors, timer, breakers, and receptacles.

 

[Underground]

There is very little similarities to what I build. There is no "quickwire" connections to the receptacles. Stranded wire instead of solid copper hook-up wire is what I use. All wires are connected with terminal lugs. I use SIEMENS breakers, loadcenters, relays, contactors, PLCs, etc, NOT SquareD. The only wall-switch style digital timer to use is AUBE, all the rest have high failure rates. There are no wirenuts inside anything I build. When contactors are enclosed in a wall mount enclosure, there should be some form of venting or internal fan. The only similarity is that they are loadcenters. If you are going to purchase a loadcenter, ask the manufacturer to show you internal photos. When you see internal views, look for how wires are terminated and how the loadcenter is attached to the gangboxes. Threaded pipe nipples join enclosures to gangboxes, make sure you see bushings as well as locknuts. It's hard to notice in the pix, but every unit I build is wall-mountable. I see no brackets on those other loadcenters.

It is eay to build a loadcenter with a few contactors, timer, breakers, and receptacles.

Looks good. Would you ever intentionally wire a 125v receptacle at 240v like that other guy?
I agree that in most cases stranded wire is best. Especially where these are likely to be used and will def be moved around a lot more than anything that was installed permanently. A solid wire connection is a lot more likely to loosen in this situation.

Square D makes excellent equipment. The only one I would stay away from is their homeline. They are great for their intended purpose, but as you obviously know by your material choices- this is more equitable to an industrial application.

I really only looked at the panel and briefly. The quality of work looked excellent. There are only a few changes I would make, and they may not apply if this load center was built to specifications for which it was to be used.
1. MB vs MLO panel. I would use a main breaker panel. Whether it was fastened in place and hardwired or mounted on a stand and cord and plug connected I would like to see this. Even if it was only a 30 or 50 amp cord and plug I would want a main disconnect (Even if it is not serving as the over current device- ie:100 amp main breaker cord and plug connected to a dryer receptacle)

2. Floating neutral bars vs bonded neutral bars. I would install a separate grounding bar and not bond the neutral conductor. (Unless it was ordered with a 3 wire cord) But if every panel is wired keeping the neutral and grounds separate, the end user can easily change the panel from a 3 to 4 wire set up (and vice-versa) by changing the cord and either bonding or un-bonding the neutral.

3. Crimped connections. Most people don't know that crimped connections are superior. BUT in the case of a device that was designed for stranded wire and has the proper terminations for stranded wire, adding crimped connectors is pointless and adds an extra point of failure and sometimes adds stress to the wire by forcing tighter bends.
I would use these anywhere they were needed though, and that may have been the case here but I think you had them on the breakers and maybe even on the neutral bars.

 

[Olyver]

The wires connected to breakers and neutral bars were covered with ferrules. A lug that screws down on stranded wire should be encased in a ferrule, they come in sizes to cover from 20AWG to 10AWG. Then apply a tiny amount of Penatrox on the stranded wires, slide the ferrule over or terminal lug. The ferrules aren't crimped. I usually go a little overkill on assembly sometimes...lol.

 

[greenthumbdanny]

You shouldnt be so arrogant about your grow knowledge, after viewing that 10k room you built w/ magnums, your far from the be all end all authority on indoor growing. Not trying to be harsh, but after enduring your pompous responses I felt it was well warranted.

Thank you for your comments:)my emoticons could be compared to your diarrhea of the keyboard lol<<>>The more money you spend on things the better it is>>That can be applied to everything in life literally:)<<<
I never claimed to be the all end authority of indoor growing>>that would be kinda cool tho:giggle<<<
That room is old news now>>>24k build coming at ya:)
I will be purchasing one hell of a load center/flip box:harvest:

gtd

 

[UCtestn]

@Ballzdeep I'm just going to send good vibes your way. I hope you have received what you wanted out of this thread. At least in the OP, you were asking for what is needed and I think that has been answered.

@Underground Seems I may have offended you, I'm sorry about the eye sore that let me continue my build for $100. Someday I will be able to afford nice stuff like Olyvers or DX. Until then, I will continue to do what I can within my humble ability and resources.

I'll take up some reading lessons so I can keep up with those of you who type fast... ;-)

 

[Underground]

@Underground Seems I may have offended you, I'm sorry about the eye sore that let me continue my build for $100. Someday I will be able to afford nice stuff like Olyvers or DX. Until then, I will continue to do what I can within my humble ability and resources.

I'm not offended. We are just looking at things from different points of view. My point of view comes from 4 years of school, 8000 on the job training hours, 10+ years experience working for someone else as a project foreman and lead service tech, and another 2 running my own electrical contracting company.

But I never said anything about your build. I only responded to you saying I sounded like an idiot. I never said anything about your board, I honestly thought that your board was something you built for educational purposes. But if you still want to use your set up until you get a new one, I would suggest at least using 3 or 4 gang boxes and putting those relays in the free space. Enclose all your connections. Boxes don't just look pretty, they hold the smoke and limit the oxygen available hopefully giving you time to notice a problem before it turns into a ball of flame.

 

[UCtestn]

I'm not offended. We are just looking at things from different points of view. My point of view comes from 4 years of school, 8000 on the job training hours, 10+ years experience working for someone else as a project foreman and lead service tech, and another 2 running my own electrical contracting company.

But I never said anything about your build. I only responded to you saying I sounded like an idiot. I never said anything about your board, I honestly thought that your board was something you built for educational purposes. But if you still want to use your set up until you get a new one, I would suggest at least using 3 or 4 gang boxes and putting those relays in the free space. Enclose all your connections. Boxes don't just look pretty, they hold the smoke and limit the oxygen available hopefully giving you time to notice a problem before it turns into a ball of flame.

I could sit here and give talk about my industry and use big words on you, but I won't because I would loose you like you've lost me. You see, we do have different perspectives. I have no years of schooling in electrical work. I do have about 4 hours of internet training through google and maybe 6 hours of on the job training. I have never worked as a "tech" or foreman so I have no clue what a gang box is. I'm sure any room I have built would give a true electrician a heart attack.

Having said that, perhaps you are willing to be helpful to an electrical ignorant grower (me)

Why does my commercially available MLC-16 have 110V style plugs?
Why would I not use 110V receptacles other then someone trying to plug a 110 Device into it?
Why would I spend $ on upgrading my default 110V power cord on my ballast to a 220V power cord?

 

[ballzdeep]

@Olyver Thanks for dropping by and explaining the differences between the panels. I just want to make sure that Im following you correctly. So essentially what your saying is that you have the experience to know which parts to use (i.e. only using an Aube timer) and that your connections are of immensely higher quality (i.e. terminal lugs and no crimping). Let me know if I missed something or if Im totally off base. I must say that you do the cleanest work Ive seen in my life and Id be shocked if you weren't the guy whos on the cutting edge of of this industry's production. With that being said Im glad you even stated that the assembly is overkill. In my opinion, which is far from professional saying its overkill is an understatement. Ive worked in 30+ panels, installing new circuits and pulling out unnecessary circuits to install ones for lights and I've never seen anything but "quickwire connections" in them. Maybe things are differrent here in Oregon than the rest of the country, but quickwire connections seem to do fine (i.e. no fires or any problems) and Ive never seen anything but them in all of the panels that I have worked in. I took the cover off my MLC-24 yesterday and discovered solid copper wire between the breakers and contactors with quickwire connections, and that the contactors are wired to the receptacles by stranded wire and connected by terminal lugs, they seem to be really cheap solderless lugs that are crimped on. So this mass produced product that has been proven to be safe and reliable for many years has quickwire connections and it is nowhere near as clean a job as Olyver's, yet still safe and reliable. I do agree that when moving the panel, wires may be loosened (which is still a longshot imo), so every panel should be inspected before installation. Id love to hear your professional opinion on my unprofessional thoughts.
@GTdanny "Diarrhea of the keyboard lol" for a guy with a bubba avatar I expected a lil more, I bet even spice boy thinks your a 12 year girl between the emoticons and the way you construct your sentences. If you really think that spending more equals better quality across the board, I wont even waste my time delving in to the thousands of products that are higher quality, more reliable and perform better than more expensive competitors. You probably buy the hort super blues b/c their more expensive and cutting edge when is reality the performance is similar and their reliability is poor in comparison with the super hps. I know science says they should be better, but in real world tests (which Ive seen with my own two) they are pretty much the same. If your gonna grow 2-3 footers on tables you should use 600's not thousands. You dont need the penetration of the 1k and the more light sources will greatly increase your yield.
@UCTesting If your running that many lights youve got no exscuse to not get your money right. Either way you seem like a real chill guy and I hope things go real well for you. Gangboxes are the boxes that house the outlets. Your right about the X style outlets on the mlc-12 and up, they have 240 power and are a combo of 5-15 and 6-15 receptacles so you can use a 120 style cord on 240 power. Underground does not seem to me to be an electrician of that experience, especially when he referred to a 5-15 outlet as having 125v, in my experience it would either be called 110 or 120. Ive been told actual voltage is closer to 115 but never checked it myself. But I do agree with underground that SquareD is a good product, out of all the panels I have worked in (mostly ge and siemens with a couple federal pacifics and squared), square d has seemed to me to be of the highest quality.

about to fire up some aota y'all have a nice day even you GTD

 

[Underground]

Why does my commercially available MLC-16 have 110V style plugs? If you are asking me why a commercially available assembly comes with 125v receptacles wired in a 240v configuration, I would say I guarantee you that it is not a UL listed assembly. Anybody can build a system with UL listed components, but that does not mean the assembly is UL listed. Why? Because some clown can wire a receptacle at the wrong voltage. And if that was something that was built in place, it would fail inspection.
Why would I not use 110V receptacles other then someone trying to plug a 110 Device into it?Well that is the main reason! If the proper receptacles are used you don't have to worry about something like that.
Why would I spend $ on upgrading my default 110V power cord on my ballast to a 220V power cord?I have no idea why you'd do such a thing. I'd just change the cord cap for a couple bucks.

I'm more than happy to offer any help you need. I just don't like being called an idiot for calling out a situation that could cause property damage, fire, bodily harm or even death.

Electrical components are designed to be operated within their appropriate voltage and amperage ranges. Running them outside of their appropriate ranges can have drastic consequences. For equipment that is wired in place, the users rely on the installers competence and training. For portable items that are cord and plug connected, users rely on manufactures following standardized industry requirements.
In any other industry, this half-assed work would not be tolerated. Manufactures and installers would be held responsible for any inadvertant harm done. And the consumer protection organizations would be all over these people's asses.
There's no reason not to demand the same level of quality be met for this industry. Consumers should be able to expect if they are paying for something, it is done correctly and not just "good enough for now".

 

[Olyver]

All terminal lugs ferrules are insulated. The terminal lugs are ratchet crimped, not the cheap crimps standard on wire strippers. Being overkill then I never have to worry about any problems or malfuctions, only human error when it comes to programming the Aube digital timer...lol.

 

[greenthumbdanny]

>>>Im still gonna have Olyver do my work:)<<<

:passingjoint:

gtd

 

[dxco]

Completely Irresponsible? I'm not alone!

Wow, that guy is an idiot!!! What kind of a moron wires 120 volt receptacles at 240 volts!?!?! What happens when people use their 120 cords so they will fit the outlet and then burn up their ballasts!?!?! And using medical grade receptacles some how make up for this?

Receptacles are designed in, and UL tested & listed in certain configurations to limit improper connections. If this guy was having his equipment tested or listed, they would fail him.

Completely irresponsible. :confused0054:

It’s really a common procedure in our industry for people to use their 120v power cords for 240 volt operation. Several manufacturers of grow light controllers use the NEMA 5-15 receptacles for 240v lights.
CAP is a respected manufacturer of products for the indoor grower and, before they started using the universal 5/6 series X-outlets, they offered NEMA 5-15R receptacles as an option on their MLC series 240 volt controllers. Sentinel lighting controllers are equipped with Wonpro receptacles that will accept the 5-15, 6-15, 5-20, 6-20 as well as plugs from most European & Asian countries. Titan once offered their 240v controller with 5-15 outlets, now also using the x-outlet.
Look at some of OLYVER’s flippers, you will see NEMA 5-15 plugs and outlets used as lamp connectors.
While I would never install a 5-20R (or 5-15) wired at 240v in your living room, our lighting controllers are usually installed in an out of the way location and the connections are made by only one person who knows exactly what the receptacle is for and what should be connected to it. Any controller I build using the 5-series or universal receptacles has "240 VOLTS!" stickers on the receptacle as well as a clear warning on the front of the panel.
I didn't come up with the idea and I use the NEMA 6-20R all the time for my customers that have the 6-15 cord -but most do not and request 5-15R.
And as far as the hospital grade receptacles -I use them for the timed connections when I can find them at a good price. The reason I use them is not to "make up for anything" but because they are superior to any other grade of receptacle you can buy -the higher contact pressure and non-plated brass contacts equate to a better electrical connection meaning lower resistance, lower voltage drop, less heat = safer connection at any voltage.

 

[ballzdeep]

Danny boy, I never said not to buy Olyvers gear. In fact I said it was the best Ive seen. What I said was that if you dont use Olyver, your not "playing with fire son", as you so eloquently put it. While I havent seen any of Dans work personally, I would bet quite a bit that its crafted better than my MLC-24 that I paid twice as much including a 25% discount, b/c the mlc-24 is not put together very well imo. but I run it and its safe. You dont know what your talking about just like underground.

 

[dxco]

Really... Really

Hey BallZ -If you are seriously thinking about building your own panel send me an email & I can hook you up with some relays.
PS: "You've been warned"


UCtester -Love your work man!

And as far as those other guys being some kind of experts or knowing this stuff... Niether one seems to know that it's not safe, in fact it's just STUPID to run neutral return current on the ground or bonding paths! It's called objectionable current and something they teach about in the first couple days of training (doesn't take 80,000 hours!). This is something that kills hundreds of people every year.
Should probably disconnect that Neutral Bonding Strap in that nice looking panel there wirenuts (it is a nice looking panel! definately not something thrown together -some serious time & planning went into that job). I also like the little Siemens 125A panel (loadcenter) below with the perfectly cutout GFIC/DECRA space for the timer in the cover. The multiple-gangboxes are deluxe too -
Multiple neutral bonds are a dangerous situation and one of the most common mistakes made, even by experienced & otherwise qualified people.
FROM NEC:
To prevent a fire, electric shock, improper operation of circuit protection devices, as well as improper operation of sensitive equipment, the grounding of electrical systems, the bonding of equipment and circuit conductors must be done in a manner that prevents objectionable current (neutral return current) from flowing on conductive materials, electrical equipment, or on grounding and bonding paths [250.6].
This is accomplished by keeping the grounded (neutral) conductor separated from the metal parts of electrical equipment, except as required for service equipment in 250.24(B) and separately derived systems in 250.30(A)(1)] in accordance with 250.142.


AND -I've installed hundreds of lighting contactors over the years (up to hundreds of amps) and never installed fans in any of them. Never have seen a NEMA rated enclosure with a fan. In fact, I REALLY (REALLY) don't think it would be a good idea to be flowing air through a contactor enclosure due to the dust, that would eventually accumulate and catch fire! The SSR's are a different story & require some cooling capacity or they will burn up.

I'm not completely sold on the "flip box" idea. If you read PowerBox's hype about their little flipper it's funny. They claim that your saving money on your power bill. Saving wear on your ballasts. And some other retarded crap... I don't see how you are saving power: You're still starting a lamp every 12 hr & running 24 (a 1Kw x 24 hrs = 24Kwh any way you look at it). And reducing the wear on your ballast? You're still starting a lamp every 12 hr & running for 24! How is that going to increase the life of your ballast? Unless... They mean you will save money because if you have a warranty the ballast will only last half as long at 24 as it would at 12 hr/day and if it fails you can get a new one under warranty, making it last twice as many hours. Does that make any sense? I think I'd just buy the ballasts and might actually save a few dollars in the long run.
Powerbox's claims about the benefits of the flip box remind me of an advertisement by an LED growlight manufacturer that actually claimed that their LED's were better for plants than the sun!

DX

 

[Olyver]

Hey DX, not interested in your opinions on how to build a loadcenter. The neutral/ground is required by Canadian Electrical Code. Worry about building your own panels. Venting for enclosures is a good idea considering the relays get very warm.

 

[Underground]

I have seen that type of work Olyver. It's just not that common. Usually it's in an industrial setting where most of the equipment is custom built. When I see this kind of work it's usually specialized. Looks to be about inline with the same line of work the Siemans guys do when building a new um something. Let's just say I have done a ton of work in many industrial applications on a "live" building, one that's occupied while work is going on. Generally money is of little concern when you this type of work, and it is "over done" to reduce chances of failure. Because failure could mean millions of dollars in losses.

I have also seen people use 125 or 240v rated receptacles for light whips. I've never liked the idea of doing that, but I do understand that not everything can be hard-wired. In cases like that, I would probably use a twist lock so there was less chance of someone getting hurt or causing property damage.

Everything as it is, I would certainly recommend something that is "over built" to this particular audience.

 

[Olyver]

I don't use the NEMA 5-15R Indsutrial spec grade receptacles anymore for flip box receptacles. Like UG said, twistlock are better, but Sunsystem seems to be the norm. I see Greenair has a 10 ballast flip box LFT-10. A customer attached their own lampcords to terminal strips on the exterior of the enclosure. I wonder if the exposure to heat and humidity might make the bare wires under the screws to oxidize over time.

 

[Olyver]

And as far as those other guys being some kind of experts or knowing this stuff... Niether one seems to know that it's not safe, in fact it's just STUPID to run neutral return current on the ground or bonding paths!
DX

You mean like this.