phytochrome manipulation

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Desertboy

Desertboy

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I thought it was obvious I was talking about using a 7200k MH 12/12 and the 12 hours the MH is off using 450nm LED's which will hopefully do as I quoted.

I could use the genefinder (Flick 12/12 for 3 days then back 18/6) method but where's the fun in that.

I like to fuck about you don't grow like I do and not like fucking about, that's why I immediately bought 2 lamps when I saw this thread (Well within a week) because I love it.
 
dextr0

dextr0

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I thought it was obvious I was talking about using a 7200k MH 12/12 and the 12 hours the MH is off using 450nm LED's which will hopefully do as I quoted.

I could use the genefinder (Flick 12/12 for 3 days then back 18/6) method but where's the fun in that.

I like to fuck about you don't grow like I do and not like fucking about, that's why I immediately bought 2 lamps when I saw this thread (Well within a week) because I love it.

Hey if you've got it like that, then do it like that. No one else will do it for me.
 
dextr0

dextr0

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ok i missed deserts last post. let me read up on the subject of 450nm blues.

Jsän talked about it in the 18th post of the thread. I just never posted on it because until I read it in Eds book I had never heard of it. He posted what u need to know tho, for cannabis that is.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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In action hoping by lighting the walls and ceiling I can plant coverage I think we need very little FR to get the affect.

Otherwise I'll add the other lamp and point the lamps at the plant opposite each other.
 
DSCF1529
Desertboy

Desertboy

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You have to wonder what if I light a plant with far red and 450nm blue at the same time?

Can we get a plant we can light 24/7 yet flower that's not a ruderalis strain?

I also wonder about lighting 350nm during the dark period or with FR.
 
dextr0

dextr0

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You have to wonder what if I light a plant with far red and 450nm blue at the same time?

Can we get a plant we can light 24/7 yet flower that's not a ruderalis strain?

I also wonder about lighting 350nm during the dark period or with FR.

If u use far red and 450nm blue at the same time would u be using any other bulbs to supplement the missing spectrum's? I say this because with cannabis growing we have learned that more of the spectrum is better. Or thats the generally accepted theory. Most will agree that without red light you are just looking for small buds.

Can we get a plant we can light 24/7 yet flower that's not a ruderalis strain? Again maybe. In fact i think it highly possible. But again to what detriment to the plant. Is it worth it in the long run?

I also wonder about lighting 350nm during the dark period or with FR. The 350nm during the dark period was talked about by Jsän in the 18th post of this thread. We still know nothing about a dark period with FR though.

You say you have seen all the stuff pertaining to lights on CW, I dont doubt you. But I think u should take another look as it has good diggs on different blue and red light and how it affects cannabis. We even had a good talk on UV-B. Besides this I feel LED grows have shown us that without a good spectrum mix u get shitty plants.

Hope this helps man. I know not everyone will agree with me, and thats fine. But im telling u my experience from reading 100s of threads, and watching their grows.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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I would use the blue 24/0, use a hps for the first 12 hours and FR for the 2nd 12 hours only for sexing the plant, not flowering.

Still flower under HPS but would they're be any benefit to giving UV-b for 24 hours a day if you're giving FR during the dark period?

We all know UV-b is meant to be frostier buds so why not 24/0.

I only want LED's because they great for small scale experiments and the lamps to do this properly aren't available yet. I do have to wonder about 24 hour flowering or more precisely 20 hour flowering and 4 hour rest using combination of lights just for fuck about purposes. I'm going to grow some fucked up plants I'm sure but that's part of the fun.

From the attached PDF

which elicited normal stem elongation in response to crowding, with nonelongated plants grown in high-density stands receiving a high ratio of red : far-red (R : FR) light that suppressed the elongation response.
They're saying FR will supress Elongation not encourage it when used with R.

This result indicates that, as either a direct or indirect response to higher R : FR, stomatal conductance and therefore photosynthetic rate were increased. However, in the density experiment, we found no significant difference in photosynthetic rates between high-density and low-density plants. The high-density plants had higher stomatal conductance and higher specific leaf area. These results indicate that the lower specific leaf weight of low-density plants is more important than the light quality effects on stomatal conductance in determining the effects of density on gas exchange.
R:FR plants had increased photosythesis!


Phytochrome-mediated stem elongation in response to crowding and vegetation shade is hypothesized to be a form
of adaptive phenotypic plasticity. The increased stem elongation is thought to allow the plants to place their leaves above their neighbors, increasing light interception. Light that has passed through a canopy of leaves has a reduced red to farred ratio (R : FR) (Smith 1982). Via the phytochrome family of photoreceptors, plants are able to detect this change in light quality and respond morphologically (Smith 1982). A typical shade avoidance response is characterized by dramatic stem elongation, reduced branching, and a redistribution of leaves to the top of the canopy (Smith 1982; Geber 1989; Weiner et al. 1990; Ballare´ et al. 1991; Weiner and Thomas 1992; Schmitt and Wulff 1993). Even before plants are directly shaded, light reflected off neighboring plants in a developing 1 Current address: Department of Plant Biology, 502 Life Sciences Building, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803, U.S.A.; e-mail [email protected]. 2 Author for correspondence and reprints. Manuscript received September 1998; revised manuscript received February 1999.
dense canopy is sufficiently lowered in R : FR to elicit an elongation response (Ballare´ et al. 1987, 1990); thus, important functions of phytochrome may be to sense future competition for light and to trigger morphological and physiological responses to avoid future shading (Casal and Smith 1989; Schmitt and Wulff 1993). Recent studies have demonstrated that elongated plants have higher fitness in high-density conditions and nonelongated plants have higher fitness in lowdensity conditions, as predicted by the shade avoidance hypothesis (Schmitt et al. 1995; Dudley and Schmitt 1996). But while such studies provided strong support for the shade avoidance hypothesis, they did not explicitly test hypotheses about the costs and benefits of the stem elongation response that cause the fitness differences.
Shade avoidance! It's the abscence of R:FR on the lower leaves that causes the stretch!

I misread this the first time, Hmmm, I think I understand why they sell a mixed colour version now, very interesting.



Jsan was talking about pure blue not UV, see bopttom chart for UV wavelengths.

Pure Blue (400-450nm) inhibits the Pfr/Pr conversion, but not as much as the Red Spectrum. this can be used to our advantage when sexing young plants. The blue light would be used during HALF of a 24/0 veg cycle. ....that is, instead of placing cuttings under a 12/12 cycle. The whole plant is placed under 12hours of veg spectrum (6500k) then instead of lights out, they get 12 hours of 400nm blue light.
I need LED's in the 280-315nm range it's UV-b I want for frostiness and UV-c for germicidal warfare.

I might do a pure LED grow so I can fuck about with wavelengths, not worried about yield at all I've got a couple of HPS for actual yield and since I only grow 1 or 2 plants a time normally plant numbers isn't an issue.

This time I've got 11 plants on the go but normally it's 1 or 2.


I've been told ~250nm is a good wavelength for UV-c LED's for my purposes wattage unsure.




I think it's commonly accepted that UV-a or blacklight has little to no affect for our beloved herb so 315-400nm is essentially a dead wavelength to us (Glad I didn't order 350nm LED's now)
 
View attachment _'99-Effects of red.pdf
UV
dextr0

dextr0

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We all know UV-b is meant to be frostier buds so why not 24/0. Because most who have tried found more than 6hrs a day to be detrimental as opposed to beneficial. So though it caused increase in trichomes for protection, after a certain point it started destroying the same thing it was helping create. The plant like humans can only take so much UV light...
....or this is the accepted theory.

U definitely have some interesting ideas. And I apologies if Im confusing anyone im just trying to understand what u wanted to accomplish. I love fucking around too. I feel its the only way we will ever know FOR SURE.

Ill be back in a while to share a patent on uv-b u should find interesting and some thoughts.

Peace.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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We all know UV-b is meant to be frostier buds so why not 24/0. Because most who have tried found more than 6hrs a day to be detrimental as opposed to beneficial. So though it caused increase in trichomes for protection, after a certain point it started destroying the same thing it was helping create. The plant like humans can only take so much UV light...
....or this is the accepted theory.


Yes but did they pulse the UV light to even 6 hours light over 24/0 with FR pulsing in the dark period, hmmm.

When you tan a human being you don't give it a set amount every day you build the up with exposure over time for maximum effect. Human's can handle a lot more UV by gradual exposure.

Maybe the key is lower wattage UV's something that was harder to do a few years ago when most UV would be from fluro's not LED's.

Dimmable LED's make starting the UV-b off at low doses and gradually increasing it a simple possibility.
 
dextr0

dextr0

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Yes but did they pulse the UV light to even 6 hours light over 24/0 with FR pulsing in the dark period, hmmm.

my bad u gonna leave only the uv and the fr in dark. got it.

also 6 hours light extended by flashes throughout the day is still 6 hrs. Right?
 
Dunge

Dunge

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The idea of using led light in pulses as well as targeted frequencies is an attractive line of investigation to me. I am imagining the light receptor organics being charged with an led pulse then being allowed time to perform subsequent reactions to store the product. This is all very fascination and promises to be a productive line of investigation.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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Anyone link me to some good LED resellers?



I've been checking these out, am I right in thinking all I need is 3w LED and the drivers, something to mount the on that's a heat sink and a fan.

Will this really drive 8 3w LED's



and this one 12




What difference is using 620nm and 660nm going to make?
 
dextr0

dextr0

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What difference is using 620nm and 660nm going to make?

Answer your own questions. I tried to help u and u seem to ignore me. Aint many even know what the fuck your talking about, or trying to. But ignore the person helping u thats always a win/win.

Im out fuck all u hoe ass people who cant see something thats good when u got it on your team.

DIRECTLY DIRECTED TO WHOEVER WANTS TO WEAR THE SHOE.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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ermmm, all right. I will, I ordered 405nm, 450nm, 470nm, 620nm, 660nm and 730nm LED's around 500w in total. (Blue & red)

I've ordered the drivers as well, looking for 290nm and 250nm (UV) LED's now.

I'm going to do some grows under LED only for experiment purposes, possibly a different short day plant to cannabis so plant numbers are irrelevant.

I've also ordered some 520nm (green) LED's for visiting during the dark period although the FR should sort that out.

620nm LED'S are 60% the price of 660nm.


Since you are obviously passionate about the issue I wonder if you have pics of your FR experiments I'm always interested in others experiences and you sound like you have first hand experience and TBH we need all the friends we can in this game. I'm a cocky cunt sometimes and blinded others but when it comes to wavelengths of light I'll take any help I can get. Especially when it comes to wiring these LED's up.

I see a lot of people talking about it and no one actually putting the money where there mouth and trying prove theory. (Except primeform) That;s why I'm building several rooms to light with several different NM to get a far better idea what's going on.

Where is the FR!
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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I feel things have gone bad quick between us! I'm going to build custom small grows to see what happens when I grow plants under only 1type of light and then take it from there, when it comes to wiring the LED's I'll appreciate any help I can get.

I have plans for an outdoor greenhouse grow this year as well using FR to put plants into flower a month earlier than nature.

I also intend to use 660nm to extend day length of several legal crops as well and extend the season of a couple crops.
 
click80

click80

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thread longevity

I am so stoked about the response from when i started this thread...very smart farmers out there....I have been too busy to really do more than do check ups here and tbh you guys are light years (pun) beyond me with LED...

So thanks for all the input and this thread is definitely a good read....

and yes the original article i quoted did have things assbackwards on the PF and PFR i believe it was...taught me to check and reread sources for sure...

Please keep this up if at all possible.... I am thinking LED has def come far enough to maybe put a couple tables in an extra room.....and i love DIY...the sourcing links on here are def in my bookmarks...Phillips seems to be a favorite with U of Arizona i have been told by a friend there....or it could be they just get free shit for saying that....lol.....

Peace
 
dextr0

dextr0

1,665
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Since you are obviously passionate about the issue I wonder if you have pics of your FR experiments I'm always interested in others experiences and you sound like you have first hand experience and TBH we need all the friends we can in this game. I'm a cocky cunt sometimes and blinded others but when it comes to wavelengths of light I'll take any help I can get. Especially when it comes to wiring these LED's up.

I see a lot of people talking about it and no one actually putting the money where there mouth and trying prove theory. (Except primeform) That;s why I'm building several rooms to light with several different NM to get a far better idea what's going on.

Where is the FR!

I am passionate about growing, and yes other stuff. Am I passionate about this particular subject no. I only wish to help u get real results as opposed to fake. Why? You are sharing information that is going to be looked at by others and taken as true. I want my fellow farmers to be able to understand and follow. If your going to experiment for us (because u have the want or the $) I want it done accurate. I'm tried of half ass people doing half ass jobs and posting it as truth.

Am I saying that is what u have in mind or that's what you are doing? No. But I WAS trying to help you and get REAL truth out there without having to explain all that to you.

You brought up the subject of putting my money where my mouth is. Well first of all I actually never had any real intrest to do this myself. After prime and me had spoke I got my hopes up and learned a little more and shared what I learned.

Now Ive explained myself for only one reason, and that is because I am trippin and have been tripping. Ive posted 3 times already on somethings that I myself think are out of line.

1. with True Grit (Im sorry bro I really was out of line in some areas).

2. with Primeform

3. with you desertboy.

I apologize to u all because I went about things wrong. Im going to stop posting for awhile because I have some issues that are effecting the way I deal with people here on the farm. It shouldn't even be carried over but I let it. Its MY fault.

Now since I did go about things wrong, I want yall to know why I did what I did. I am having problems in my family and I now just today got evicted from my home. It is a really long story. And I know this has nothing to do with you all and that I should be able to take care of my own shit, but Im asking Yall to please forgive me.

I aint a hoe, or a hoe ass dude or anything like that so dont get it twisted.
I am a man though and I know I was wrong. So I apologies yall.

Imma kick back and get shit strait in my head, Everything's fucked up. Ill be back tho, and if yall will accept my help I am willing to help.

Peace.
 
P

primeform

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good luck with the real life stuff dude. stress can be a bitch. i get in fights with my girl all the time for unrelated things that are wearing on us.

I think this thread is doing well. now we need to apply our theories to real life and come back with the first results. We can take what weve learned and adapt from there.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

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263
Sorry to hear things are tough for you at the moment dextr0 I hope things improve I really do. I've had a very hard 2 years and my life is starting to get better maybe I can give you some of my Karma!

I hope you're hanging on for the ride I hope it's going to be a hell of a one.
 
Desertboy

Desertboy

1,416
263
I can't grow plants quicker, my digital timer's keep failing!

So I'm going to run 15/9 instead (I can use a good old grasslin then), the FR has made the plant stretch, never seen anything like it before it's cool, from now on I shall run the FR for a couple of muinutes at lights off only. (Been running it all through the dark).

I've lost my camera but I'll get on it.

I'm going to take the summer to rebuild my rooms properly for experiments including using computer controlled relay's for the timer and dataloggers for temp/humidity and CO2 which will cost a small fortune given I need 2 of everything to do it properly.

Looks like that holiday is out the window.


For tree growing FR might be your best friend!
 

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