120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

[dankworth]

My bad, I was copying and pasting hastily.
The MKP is like .265 grams/liter, and 1.002 grams/gallon.
If you run those values, you will end up a little over 3 ec/1500 ppms, I forget exactly how much. Dilute to whatever values you want after that.
The true elemental ppms should work out to the values listed in the title when you mix according to these values.

 

[Capulator]

Here are fatmans current ratios:


DTW VEG 2010 #2

Nitrogen 357
Phosphorus 55
Potassium 300
Magnesium 55.5
Calcium 200
Sulfur 78
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum 0.09

Ounces

Part A
Calcium Nitrate 13.2
Potassium Nitrate 4.0
Iron Chelate 1.35

Part B
Potassium Nitrate 4.0
Magnesuium Nitrate 7.07
Ammonium Sulfate 7.36
MonoPotassium Phosphate 3.5
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate.059
Ammonium Molybdate .002

Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100

DTW Bloom 2010

ppm

Nitrogen 400
Phosphorus 80
Potassium 430
Magnesium 70
Calcium 120
Sulfur 93
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum 0.09

 

[Capulator]

And here is Yosemetesams key points I took notes on:


Here are the exact formulas I am currently running.

veg...through stretch

cano3...3
mgso4...2.4
kno3...0.7
mkp...0.4
micro...0.1

150-24-101-144-60 (peak formula normally run at lower concentrations)

flower

CaNO3...3.7
mkp...0.8
mgso4...2.4
met k ...2.6
micro...0.1

150-48-240-177-60 (pretty much run at that level or a hair higher)

So that is almost exactly in line with your K:N the_extremist. On a 10 week strain I start feeding the flower formula at the end of week 3 (pretty much the end of stretch on my 10 week strains). At the end of 7.5-8 weeks (depending on how green they are) I quit feeding N and basically just feed a little K and a couple of other minerals...to let the coco rid itself of N and for the plant to have the other things it needs while the N is getting used up. Somewhere between a week or 1.5 weeks out I go to water only.

As to EC or ppm N or however you want to call it, how strong to feed them...that depends on your media and your growing method. DS is feeding around 1/2 strength in an UnderCurrent, I am feeding 150-200 ppm N in 65 gallon pots that I fertigate every 3-4 days (playing around with O2 management at the time). In the end though a pound of either of our bud probably used similar total cumulative amounts of nutes.

However, I will say if you are in coco and in pots that need watered every day the 115 N is going to be pretty close to what you need. You just have to watch how green they are and you kinda want the bud doubling in size every week...so you watch and tweak.

Ratio wise though that looks like a good formula to me

I have quit using Si in my res. The stuff seems to act a whole lot like carbonate...that is buffering the pH of my media constantly upward.

I am, however, going to foliar feed it once or twice in veg and once in flower. It is most excellent in preventing PM on tomatoes when used that way...in spite of other plants in the area having it.

Hope that helps.

edit...S would be 79 on both my formulas.


40 P through the first 3 weeks of flower, 60 P after that.

K:N 1.5 through stretch, 1.75 after that
K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1 the entire way. i am straight up fuckin lovin this ratio.

 

[dankworth]

I ate some chocolate like a dumbass and my crohns is fucking fucked right now but thanks, Cap, this is hella badass. I'm going to lay down and lose hard and try to digest this while I pay for being a dumbass.
Fuckin awesome post Cap. Thanks again.

 

[outwest]

I ate some chocolate like a dumbass and my crohns is fucking fucked right now but thanks, Cap, this is hella badass. I'm going to lay down and lose hard and try to digest this while I pay for being a dumbass.
Fuckin awesome post Cap. Thanks again.

Dude - Get some rest.

 

[dankworth]

That's like a 5-1-5.4 on Fatman's DTW bloom values.
Is he talking rockwool, peat? I remember his coco values were a direct copy of CNS-17 soil/coco @ 2-2-3 for a 1:1.5 N:K ratio.
That is a ton of N with Fatman.

The Yosemite Sam flowering formula has 1:1.6 N:K ratio.
I liked 1:2.5 best, copying JK. Also have ran 1:1.5 and 1:1.6.
Maybe think about boosting K last 2 weeks past 1:1.75?
Your strain is probably not as leafy as mine.

I cannot go without silica with my cultivar. I should hook up that aquarium ph controller.

Dude that flushing technique is pretty trick. I think I will have to give that a try.

Thanks for all the info Cap.

 

[Capulator]

That's like a 5-1-5.4 on Fatman's DTW bloom values.
Is he talking rockwool, peat? I remember his coco values were a direct copy of CNS-17 soil/coco @ 2-2-3 for a 1:1.5 N:K ratio.
That is a ton of N with Fatman.

The Yosemite Sam flowering formula has 1:1.6 N:K ratio.
I liked 1:2.5 best, copying JK. Also have ran 1:1.5 and 1:1.6.
Maybe think about boosting K last 2 weeks past 1:1.75?
Your strain is probably not as leafy as mine.

I cannot go without silica with my cultivar. I should hook up that aquarium ph controller.

Dude that flushing technique is pretty trick. I think I will have to give that a try.

Thanks for all the info Cap.

fatman runs aero DTW. Those are his ratios and he dilutes like 1:100, but ratios are ratios. see how much iron he is running? Also Boron.

I flush the YS way with my coco base don this same post. I drop out the N and justy add a little of everything else for a week, then just RO the last week. they fade out pretty good and smell great when they finish up. I am using more sulfur. At least 100ppm in every formula. I am pretty much out of jacks so I have some potassium nitrate and magnesium nitrate on the way and then I will be able to manipulate a little better.

 

[dankworth]

fatman runs aero DTW. Those are his ratios and he dilutes like 1:100, but ratios are ratios. see how much iron he is running? Also Boron.

I flush the YS way with my coco base don this same post. I drop out the N and justy add a little of everything else for a week, then just RO the last week. they fade out pretty good and smell great when they finish up. I am using more sulfur. At least 100ppm in every formula. I am pretty much out of jacks so I have some potassium nitrate and magnesium nitrate on the way and then I will be able to manipulate a little better.

I bumped my iron to 7 ppms w/2k ppms/4ec. I want to try 10 ppms next time. They loved it.
Gotta check the boron values on my micro mix when I get up there.
I need a 50 lb bag of Jack's micros.
And some chlorides.

Been checking out this book.
http://t1.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStKgbQ4OK76w1SkHYU0tETc3pfDbE4CRMf2JIByA7Nc-wFGeJk2g

They are obviously full of shit, they don't mention AN anywhere.

edit- any benefit to having mg nitrate vs mg sulfate? I always look for an excuse to bump S.

 

[Resinable]

I am a bit confused; YosemiteSam told me two days ago that he is running the following in coco:

"I run elemental N-P-K-Ca-Mg at 100-75-75-110-40 and add a little more Ca as an amendment. I do that through stretch and then, based on what I see, give occasional bumps of mpk. I use CaNO3, ammonium phosphate (to control media pH vs the alkalinity of my water), epsom salt, mpk, a micro package called STEM, a little iron dpta and a little Zn edta.

So wouldn't his N:K ratio be 2:1.5 or 1:.75 not 1:1.6? Or do I misunderstand something?

My understanding is he wanted to lower the K from a traditional hydro formula to account for the K that coco gives off.

Also perhaps the reason that some claim coco imparts a better taste to the finished product is the result of the Sulfur it releases, so it is probably important not to over do the sulfur in when fertilizing coco.

One thing that bothers me about coco though is this: different batches of coco have undergone different treatment processes and been grown in different place thus the properties of coco are probably variable making it hard to build the perfect fertilizer for all coco.

I wish Yosemite hung out on the farm more; fatman for that matter too.

 

[dankworth]

Yeah dude and then if you ran big plants that needed higher ppms, you would be short on the K you needed.
Because if the coco let's say contributes x ppms of K, then as the ppms go up, the K ratio would then be reduced proportionally.

Wouldn't work for my hater mix(chow, 24% coco)(fuck you kushtrees!);)
For people employing 100% coco medium with smaller plants/smaller containers, I could see how this strategy would work.

 

[ttystikk]

I'm switching to coco/ chow mix and going DTW. I got sick and damned tired of always wondering what's going on with my RDWC; PH all over the place, then EC not behaving... screw it. I've had it with inconsistent results. Maybe when I grow up or something...

Meanwhile, I am not following all the info on this thread- but I will, likely once I've been running the coco for awhile and have a knowlege base built up.

Would you guys offer a Jacks and Calcium nitrate ratio for me to use while I get my coco legs?

 

[dankworth]

May I recommend getting the salts if possible. You will end up wanting to play with the N:K ratio eventually. That is harder to do with Jack's.
With Jack's you would need (I think)
Jack's
epsom
cal nit
are micros in Jack's?
or
epsom
cal nit
k sulfate
k nitrate
mkp
micros

and then follow the grams/gallon, don't be afraid to bump your iron/micros up to see what happens.

 

[ttystikk]

May I recommend getting the salts if possible. You will end up wanting to play with the N:K ratio eventually. That is harder to do with Jack's.
With Jack's you would need (I think)
Jack's
epsom
cal nit
are micros in Jack's?
or
epsom
cal nit
k sulfate
k nitrate
mkp
micros

and then follow the grams/gallon, don't be afraid to bump your iron/micros up to see what happens.

Yes, Jacks 5-12-26 has micros in it. I agree with you that going with salts and rolling my own is the way to go eventually, but for now I just want to keep things on the simple and repeatable side- plus I have over 30 lbs of Jacks to use up- not to mention some 65 lbs of calcium nitrate.

If you- or anyone- could, help me out with a specific mix to use?

 

[dankworth]

Yes, Jacks 5-12-26 has micros in it. I agree with you that going with salts and rolling my own is the way to go eventually, but for now I just want to keep things on the simple and repeatable side- plus I have over 30 lbs of Jacks to use up- not to mention some 65 lbs of calcium nitrate.

If you- or anyone- could, help me out with a specific mix to use?

I think Cap has experience and specific knowledge about Jack's and coco mixes.

 

[ttystikk]

I think Cap has experience and specific knowledge about Jack's and coco mixes.

True- he's the guy who got me onto it in the first place. Does he run coco, or just straight water- do you know?

 

[dankworth]

True- he's the guy who got me onto it in the first place. Does he run coco, or just straight water- do you know?

I believe he has a room with rdwc and coco/perlite all espalier'ed out against the walls, but am not 100% sure.

 

[Resinable]

Dankworth,

Yeah dude and then if you ran big plants that needed higher ppms, you would be short on the K you needed.
Because if the coco let's say contributes x ppms of K, then as the ppms go up, the K ratio would then be reduced proportionally.

Don't know if I agree that bigger plants need different ratios, my experience has not shown that. Yosemite grows decent sized plants with his formula over a p per plant I think.

Wouldn't work for my hater mix(chow, 24% coco)(fuck you kushtrees!);)
For people employing 100% coco medium with smaller plants/smaller containers, I could see how this strategy would work.

Wonder about this tho; about how cutting coco with perlite or hydroton changes nute requirements. Seems like maybe not since perlite and hydroton are fairly inert?

Would you guys offer a Jacks and Calcium nitrate ratio for me to use while I get my coco legs?

Ttystick,
I'm using Jack's and Cal nit and love it even though I managed to muddle it up in my haste this first run. I started off running a ratio of 2:3:1 . . . Jacks/Calnit/Epsom and my plants looked super healthy so it took me second to realize my mistake. Most run a 3:2:1 or 3:2:.5 or just 3:2 ratio. A 1:1 might be okay for veg and early flower but 3:2 is better for bloom for sure and maybe veg too. I started out using Epsom salts but will try dropping them based on YosemiteSam saying that Jacks already has near the upper limit for Mag.

Funny thing was my plants looked super healthy with 2:3:1 but by week 5 I realized my bud size was not what it should be and my plants were producing a tremendous amount of healthy leaf. So I switched it up to 3:2:1 at half strength and added MOAB at 1 gram per gallon and things have responded.

I am in about 60% perlite 40% coco and have been running my ppms (500 scale) at about 800 to 1200 prior to week five and about 650 with MOAB.

Yosemite was using Jacks with no boosters in coco but switched to salts to get a more coco specific formula. He told me that his yield did not go up with the switch but his quality did. He also foliars with calcium 25.

I might stop using Epsoms as Yosemite pointed out that Jacks already has the upper limits of Mag.

Jacks and calnit is super user friendly. Plants love it.

Wonder if anybody on the Farm has ever used Magnon grow or bloom from AmericanHydro? A and B two part dry nuts. Interesting looking stuff. They are from Humboldt and have been around for a while but don't sell exclusively to the cannabis market. They carry some interesting products. There Companion product is the shit if you want b.subtilis.

 

[ttystikk]

In RDWC, my preferred ratios with Jacks were:
3g/gal Jacks
3g/gal CalNi (veg)
2g/gal CalNi (bloom)
2g/gal Epsom, since the molecule has so much hydrate in it, you have to use a lot to get much sulfur.

If someone sees something wrong with these ratios, by all means say so- don't go by the ppm, I dilute to the strength needed for the plants' needs.

I'm not sure what too much magnesium looks like, but my girls were healthy- at least unitl the crazy pH swings set in. Capulator mentioned that he quit using silica due to pH issues, and I think I had the same problem- and then I think I got a bug of some kind that dragged my pH down, and hard. In the tug-of-war, my plants basically just gave up a week or two early.

 

[dankworth]

Resinable, I fed at 2000 ppms/4 ec, and I clearly need to bump it to 2200 already. So let's say the coco contributes a total of 50 ppms K, that would be enough ppms to balance out K ratio at lower ppms. But at my ppms, there would be a deficit.
I use 1/4 coco chow, didn't think I would have to run such high ppms.
My plant is a freak eater, and getting lit up pretty well, high humidity right now, halfway optimized, so my ppms are up there.
I am betting if the bucket were filled with all coco, I would have to run lower ppms.
Fuckin love my new hater buckets.

 

[Dirty White Boy]

Question exactly what natural elements does cannabis need to reach its peak. Does it use all 90?