Welcome to the Fungal, it gets worse here everyday - Fusarium Solani

[sonofdust]

Have you thought about ozone treatment for the room ?

 

[entropy99]

Have you tried using a systemic fungicide? And soaking all tools, etc. in a bleach solution?

 

[Boylobster]

Yo silver, I just wanted to throw this thread at you:

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/how-i-defeated-pythium.35614/

It describes symptoms very similar to what we've experienced, and is definitely a root-based issue, but pythium is the culprit. Food for thought. Hope you're keeping the stress in check, man.

 

[silverhaze]

Have you thought about ozone treatment for the room ?

Hey Sonofdust,

Thanks for your reply. Actually, I have not thought of this. What can you tell me about it and, are you talking about treating the res with ozone or somehow treating the room? Could you elaborate a bit. Interesting. I've read about using OMB (ozone microbubbles) in the res but I have no experience with it at all.

SH

 

[Boylobster]

Bubbling ozone through the rez is a sterilization technique, and it works on the same principal that ozone does in the air (sorry to butt in). O3 is highly unstable, and therefore highly reactive. To become ordinary O2, like what we breath in the atmosphere, it's wants to give off a single oxygen atom, and *that* thing will bind with absolutely anything. When it does, it *oxidizes* them (anti-oxidants, yeah?), altering them fundamentally at a chemical level. This is how it destroys odors, bacterium, rubber, plastics, metals, your lungs, etc.

Hydrogen peroxide works in the same way. As H2O2, it's much more comfortable as plain 'ol H2O, but it's got to give up that rampaging single oxygen atom to do it, which then goes on to rip apart the first thing it touches.

Adding ozone to the atmosphere is one way to reduce the number of viable airborne pathogens in your space, but you gotta' be careful with that: ozone at sufficiently high concentrations is extremely hazardous. Not only can it damage your plants and corrode damn near everything it comes into contact with, but it can absolutely liquify your lungs. That's at high concentrations, mind you, but in a small space, you gotta' be careful with that stuff.

Basically, at appropriate concentrations, it's a cleaning and disinfecting agent, but at sustained, high concentrations, its a highly corrosive gas.

That's my quick and dirty explanation, anyway; anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)

So, if you suspect that airborne mold and spores are a big part of the problem, maybe ozone could be part of a solution. In the rez, you might as well just be adding H202. The advantage of ozone, I suppose, is that you could have a measured and constant supply trickling in, but you could probably rig up something similar with a peroxide drip.

 

[silverhaze]

Have you tried using a systemic fungicide? And soaking all tools, etc. in a bleach solution?

Hey entropy99 thanks for chiming in.

Only in this last unsuccessful run did I have the lab test done to identify the fusarium. Therefore, I have yet to start another run as I'm still working out what new approach to take and what actually works against it. As far as the soaking and sterilizing of all tools, yes, I've gone to great extents to clean and sterilize everything that touches the plants. What systemics would you recommend using for this fungus?

 

[silverhaze]

Bubbling ozone through the rez is a sterilization technique, and it works on the same principal that ozone does in the air (sorry to butt in). O3 is highly unstable, and therefore highly reactive. To become ordinary O2, like what we breath in the atmosphere, it's wants to give off a single oxygen atom, and *that* thing will bind with absolutely anything. When it does, it *oxidizes* them (anti-oxidants, yeah?), altering them fundamentally at a chemical level. This is how it destroys odors, bacterium, rubber, plastics, metals, your lungs, etc.

Hydrogen peroxide works in the same way. As H2O2, it's much more comfortable as plain 'ol H2O, but it's got to give up that rampaging single oxygen atom to do it, which then goes on to rip apart the first thing it touches.

Adding ozone to the atmosphere is one way to reduce the number of viable airborne pathogens in your space, but you gotta' be careful with that: ozone at sufficiently high concentrations is extremely hazardous. Not only can it damage your plants and corrode damn near everything it comes into contact with, but it can absolutely liquify your lungs. That's at high concentrations, mind you, but in a small space, you gotta' be careful with that stuff.

Basically, at appropriate concentrations, it's a cleaning and disinfecting agent, but at sustained, high concentrations, its a highly corrosive gas.

That's my quick and dirty explanation, anyway; anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)

So, if you suspect that airborne mold and spores are a big part of the problem, maybe ozone could be part of a solution. In the rez, you might as well just be adding H202. The advantage of ozone, I suppose, is that you could have a measured and constant supply trickling in, but you could probably rig up something similar with a peroxide drip.

Cool, thanks for this bro,

Not a big fan of the ozone idea in the air for odor control or for pathogens and now with your description I see my skepticism is well warranted. However, I still don't know for sure if this shit is airborne. I only have one opinion on the subject, the pathologist, who says it is not airborne. In which case, I don't have the air to worry about. I have seen the ozone add ons for the RO machines and I can see how this could be effective. However, you're saying that the same thing can be achieved with H2o2 though? That's a bit of a bummer since the H2o2 hasn't worked for me against the fungi.

Still haven't had results from my water test so looking forward to that. Checking the tap water, water that's been filtered and the filter itself.

How's your fight going? Thanks for that other link. I had seen that before I knew about my infection but it read a lot more interesting this time around.

 

[Boylobster]

No problem, man. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that ozone is ineffective - quite the opposite. In a small, confined space, you just gotta' be careful that it doesn't get *too* effective, know what I mean? That's if it's being deployed into the air, of course.

It works via the same principle as H2O2, yeah. They both let loose a free oxygen atom that, in high enough numbers, go forth and wreck havoc. Whether it works for you or not may be a matter of concentration... but of course, given a high enough concentration, you'll damage your roots as well. : P

My fight is... well, not much of one. I'll crop out, and there's definitely bud, but it's nothing like the harvest it should have been. I weep. Thank you for asking, though! I'll put some pics up soon on my problem thread and you can see for yourself.

 

[ethnoman]

I'd be careful with ozone. You obviously have a good idea of the destructive potential of it, so I need not warn you of the danger. Simply saying I would think twice about it using it considering its nonselective destructive potential.

I've not had any direct experience with F. solani, but if it is like other pathogenic species in the genus, then it looks like you have a battle ahead. Have you looked into treatment for other species of Fusarium to get an ideas of what is required?

 

[entropy99]

Hey entropy99 thanks for chiming in.

Only in this last unsuccessful run did I have the lab test done to identify the fusarium. Therefore, I have yet to start another run as I'm still working out what new approach to take and what actually works against it. As far as the soaking and sterilizing of all tools, yes, I've gone to great extents to clean and sterilize everything that touches the plants. What systemics would you recommend using for this fungus?

Wish I could answer that question for you Silverhaze. Ethnoman has the right idea of looking into how other Fusarium-caused diseases are treated and going from there.

A quick look on Wiki tells me that methyl bromide is used for Fusarium oxysporum f.sp. cubense, which attacks bananas. Methyl bromide is commonly used as a fumigant for fruit and bananas. This is not to say that it isn't toxic (it is), but that it can be used safely on products intended for consumption.Whether its use as a fumigant is applicable to your needs, I cannot say.

Another fungicide used to treat the same Fusarium species as above is carbendazim, but that is not something to be handled carelessly. It has severe and permanent health side-effects, so it's not something any of us are likely to go spraying all over our plants.

 

[silverhaze]

Have you looked into treatment for other species of Fusarium to get an ideas of what is required?[/quote]

Thanks Ethnoman!

This is the very thing I've been searching so hard for. The most common of the Fusarium species for cannabis seems clearly to be Fusarium Oxysporum. This is such a tough one because I have yet to find anyone who said, "I had Fusarium for sure (lab tested) and this fixed it". It seems I may never find that. So I have had a lot of suggestions on different products but not much certainty as of yet. Entropy99 has a new suggestion of methly bromide and carbendazim so I'll look into those as well.

 

[silverhaze]

Wish I could answer that question for you Silverhaze. Ethnoman has the right idea of looking into how other Fusarium-caused diseases are treated and going from there.

A quick look on Wiki tells me that methyl bromide is used for Fusarium oxysporum f.sp. cubense, which attacks bananas. Methyl bromide is commonly used as a fumigant for fruit and bananas. This is not to say that it isn't toxic (it is), but that it can be used safely on products intended for consumption.Whether its use as a fumigant is applicable to your needs, I cannot say.

Another fungicide used to treat the same Fusarium species as above is carbendazim, but that is not something to be handled carelessly. It has severe and permanent health side-effects, so it's not something any of us are likely to go spraying all over our plants.

Say thanks Entropy99,

As mentioned in my reply to Ethnoman, I'm going to look into the things you've mentioned and thank you so much for going out of your way to look some stuff up for me. Since it takes the full veg time plus a few days to a few weeks for the fugus to really show up, I want to be really careful with what I choose to move forward with. Trial and error is fine but in 6 to 8 week intervals it can be really touch to keep your chin up and keep trying. Every time I come in the room and notice that this stuff has taken hold of my crop, well, let's just say it's a bad feeling. As you may have read above I am waiting on some water test results to see where I stand. I suppose it would be lucky if that were identified as the source. I agree with you both that if there is an effective treatment for one species that would be well worth trying on another. I have read about a few other things that have been said to be effective against oxysporum. I will try and find the sources again and share.

 

[Boylobster]

Man, I know you're hurting, but I would weigh the use of systemic fungicides very, very carefully. The one (and thankfully only) experience I had with spider mites nearly drove me to tracking down some hard-core, persistent industrial pesticides out of sheer frustration and desperation... but I'm glad I didn't. The shit that is almost 100% guarantee to kill anything is guaranteed for a reason - they all tend to be incredibly toxic, and remain in the environment. o_O You're going to be trapped in that room with whatever solution you deploy, so just... y'know, think about it. I know you've got to be at your wit's end, but keep at it; whatever the solution, I know you'll find a way to beat this that *doesn't* compromise your health or your customer's health in the long-term.

 

[zombie III]

that carbendazim stuff causes cancer im pretty sure. u would have to be crazy to put that on buds ur gonna smoke or sell.

 

[squiggly]

1. Ditch your pumps.

2. Ditch anything you can cheaply replace (pots/trimmers/tubing/chains/ropes/ducting)

3. Buy a set of clothing meant only for entering the garden and keep it CLEAN--store it in a clean plastic container (sterilize it often) while not in use.

4. Take a shower before entering the grow.

5. Wear a clean suit (if you feel like going this far)--failing this, definitely be sure to cover your hair.

6. Invest in a hepa filter/air purifier--and be sure to affix hepa filters to any intakes in the room (google hepa dust shroom to find some examples).

7. Using spray adhesive, affix panda plastic to every surface in your room--sealing the seams with appropriate water-proof tape, being sure to align the plastic such that the "floor" layer is underneath the upper layers, so that it will act as a liner for the room.

8. With #7 completed unleash chemical doom upon your room. Physan, forbid, bleach, etc. Until you're satisfied that nothing could possibly be alive.You might consider utilizing a pressure washer of some kind.

9. Consider being a bigger dick about how you've cleaned your lights--anything on them can drop onto your plants.

10. Consider treating around your building/yard with the antifungals. This could be making its way in from just outside.

 

[entropy99]

Say thanks Entropy99,

As mentioned in my reply to Ethnoman, I'm going to look into the things you've mentioned and thank you so much for going out of your way to look some stuff up for me. Since it takes the full veg time plus a few days to a few weeks for the fugus to really show up, I want to be really careful with what I choose to move forward with. Trial and error is fine but in 6 to 8 week intervals it can be really touch to keep your chin up and keep trying. Every time I come in the room and notice that this stuff has taken hold of my crop, well, let's just say it's a bad feeling. As you may have read above I am waiting on some water test results to see where I stand. I suppose it would be lucky if that were identified as the source. I agree with you both that if there is an effective treatment for one species that would be well worth trying on another. I have read about a few other things that have been said to be effective against oxysporum. I will try and find the sources again and share.

No problem Silverhaze, I really hope you manage to get this problem under control. I can imagine how frustrating it must be!

Boylobster is correct in that you should really consider whether you want to use such heavy chemicals or not. They should be a choice of last resort and even then, need careful consideration.

Squiggly has suggested a good approach to dealing with it, although honestly, I would just move to an entirely new place and get new equipment. A fresh start, well removed from all sources of contamination is sure to resolve the problem.

 

[sonofdust]

Hey Sonofdust,

Thanks for your reply. Actually, I have not thought of this. What can you tell me about it and, are you talking about treating the res with ozone or somehow treating the room? Could you elaborate a bit. Interesting. I've read about using OMB (ozone microbubbles) in the res but I have no experience with it at all.

SH

Silverhaze; Sorry for taking so long to get back to ya.
I run my water through a UV-C light before it gets to the rez. If you run your nutes through it, it will cause Iron,Zinc,and Manganese to drop out of your soup. Ionic makes UV Balance that will stop this but, is not sold in the good ole US of A.
Before I start the next grow I run a shock dose of ozone and as the weather changes I use shorter doses with my girls. DO NOT point the ozone machine directly at the plants, as the extra atom attachés to mold,pollen,dust and settles on the leaves, leaving spots that look like a magnesium deficiency. As Boylobster mentioned, it can dangerous so please do a little research first.

 

[silverhaze]

1. Ditch your pumps.

2. Ditch anything you can cheaply replace (pots/trimmers/tubing/chains/ropes/ducting)

3. Buy a set of clothing meant only for entering the garden and keep it CLEAN--store it in a clean plastic container (sterilize it often) while not in use.

4. Take a shower before entering the grow.

5. Wear a clean suit (if you feel like going this far)--failing this, definitely be sure to cover your hair.

6. Invest in a hepa filter/air purifier--and be sure to affix hepa filters to any intakes in the room (google hepa dust shroom to find some examples).

7. Using spray adhesive, affix panda plastic to every surface in your room--sealing the seams with appropriate water-proof tape, being sure to align the plastic such that the "floor" layer is underneath the upper layers, so that it will act as a liner for the room.

8. With #7 completed unleash chemical doom upon your room. Physan, forbid, bleach, etc. Until you're satisfied that nothing could possibly be alive.You might consider utilizing a pressure washer of some kind.

9. Consider being a bigger dick about how you've cleaned your lights--anything on them can drop onto your plants.

10. Consider treating around your building/yard with the antifungals. This could be making its way in from just outside.

Thanks so much Squiggly,

Entropy and some other friends on the farm have a good and well taken point about finding a new location and starting over from scratch. I fully agree this is the easiest way to get back up and running. However, my current location, excluding the fusarium, is ideal. So in an effort to keep something going, I am going to have to do both and the search has already begun for a new location. That said, I fully intend on trying to beat this thing here where I am. From here forward, I will only be experimenting with a few plants so as not to break my wallet or heart over more lost crops and I feel this way I can do a bit more trial and error as I know I'll probably be in for a lot of that.

Your checklist is awesome and as you're pointing out here, there is an absolute order to these things. While my cleaning practices are pretty good, doing them in the wrong order or skipping even one step renders the whole effort useless.

1/2. Check! will dump all pumps, hoses, chains, scissors, ducting etc. Most of it is already gone.

3/5. Let's not f around, I'll get a cleanroom suit booties and a cap. Can the disposable suits be re-used? Or, should I get a more serious chemical suit?

4. Check!

6. Room is sealed and I run fans with carbon filters in the room but no intake or exhaust. However I have a Hepa filter that I used to use for fresh air in. Do you think the filters themselves are fungus traps and should I toss this too? It was outside the room fyi.

7. Panda film covers my room, floor too, and was done almost as you describe. Largely, I stapled the film to the walls, some covers new plywood, some cover very old studs. Is it worth re-doing with adhesives? The floor film was added last of course and before putting it down I vacuumed forever then drenched the floor with Physan 20 and let it air dry, then put down the film. I worry about the old stud walls the most. Also, how about electrical sockets? Obviously film is cut around them and it would seem an easy place for spores to hide.

8. I will have to come back to you for advice when I'm ready to unleash hell on this environment so I'll leave this one for now.

9. Good point and I might just consider buying new hoods for this room.

10. Been doing this. When I have a Physan mixed and in the pump sprayer, I cover all the entrances and pretty much do the footprint of the structure. However as I was mentioning earlier and the point I think you're trying to make, if I do all this and then walk back in with contaminated shoes, it was all for not. The suit is a really good idea and on that note I think I will build in a small "change room" where I can slip into my clean suit before entering.

So my thought is from all this advice is to clean, clean, clean and keep it clean. Then, new tools, pumps hoses and all the rest. Then Genetics. No more fucking clones from shit sources period! Do you have any advice or suggestions about strains that are more resistant to fungi? I will start from seed once I am satisfied with my cleaning efforts.

Thanks Squiggly,
SH

 

[Capulator]

That sucks. Was the lab able to verify the exact species, or just that it was fusarium? Fusarium is kind of broad...

You may want to try trichoderma t-22. I bought some to scope it out and it is for root diseases, including fusarium. I bought mine at johnnyseeds dot com. I'm still researching whether or not it is safe to use on cannabis, but I will post here for you when I call them tomorrow to find out.

 

[silverhaze]

That sucks. Was the lab able to verify the exact species, or just that it was fusarium? Fusarium is kind of broad...

You may want to try trichoderma t-22. I bought some to scope it out and it is for root diseases, including fusarium. I bought mine at johnnyseeds dot com. I'm still researching whether or not it is safe to use on cannabis, but I will post here for you when I call them tomorrow to find out.

Hey thanks Cap,

Yes, the Fusarium was identified as F. Solani. It seems the Oxysporum species is more prevalent in cannabis but mine is definitely F. Solani. That, in itself, doesn't mean a ton to me. Do you know of any differences in the species or dealing with them? Very interested in your findings about trichoderma t-22. Let me know what they say and thanks so much Cap.

SH