What do you get from an F1 crossed to an F2?

Here are some shots of the males when they dropped pollen, there were 3 of them. I crossed the mixed pollen of all 3 back to 3 of the F2 plants in question, which were in turn created from the same F1 stock using 2 males that were different. It gets confusing, but the F1 back to F2 seeds won't get out in order to keep things from getting out of hand. There will be plenty of straight F2s which is what I want.

the reason i always use the term original mother is because i only work bx with clone only strains so i'm always using the same original mother in my pieces, ix are a bit different but i stay the course with those as well because i usually keep the mothers for a while before letting them go.


great knowledge and some good reading thank you much.


respect:)

piehole said:

hillbilly :clown:

Click to expand...

How does a hillbilly get circumsized?




When the Daddy kicks the sister in the jaw.lol

Always tought that was funny as shit.
Happy farmin;)

I was under the impression it would be an incross because your still crossing within the same line/strain. To me, in order for it to be a back cross, a hybrid would first have to be made. But that's how it was explained to me.

SSH F1 (f) x SSH F2 (m) = SSH IX1
SSH F1 (f) x [SSH F1 x Skunk#1] (m) = SSH BX1

That's the way I always interpreted it, but I could've very easily just been given incorrect info to begin with.

SourDank said:

I was under the impression it would be an incross because your still crossing within the same line/strain. To me, in order for it to be a back cross, a hybrid would first have to be made. But that's how it was explained to me.

SSH F1 (f) x SSH F2 (m) = SSH IX1
SSH F1 (f) x [SSH F1 x Skunk#1] (m) = SSH BX1

That's the way I always interpreted it, but I could've very easily just been given incorrect info to begin with.

Click to expand...

Yea,its an ix,76

If you cross and F1 x F2...the offspring are considered F2...


Found a little snippet explaining in goat breeding...



~Lem


GenerationsIf you see F1, F2, F3 etc and wonder what that means, let me explain. The F in F1 etc means Foundation. The foundation animals in Mini-Manchas are the purebred LaMancha and purebred Nigerian Dwarf. Anytime you breed back to a full blood LaMancha or Nigerian Dwarf, then you have bred back to the foundation stock. The number behind the F tells you how many generations away from foundation you are. Meaning how many generations you are from pure Nige
rian or pure LaMancha animals. So for example, a F1 goat is 1 generation from foundation animals. That F1 goat was born from a pure Nigerian and LaMancha parents. A F2 goat is 2 generations from foundation. It was produced from crossing two F1 goats together. (There are exceptions to those but we'll get to that later.)Does that make sense? The best way I can explain how to figure out what generation your kids will be when breeding minis is to take the lowest generation goat of the crossing and the kid will be one generation higher. So for example; If you breed a F1 to an F2, the kids will be one generation higher than the lowest parent. The lowest parent is a F1, so F2 is the kid's generation. Doesn't matter if you cross a F1 to an F6, the kids will still be one generation higher than the lowest parent, so the kids will still be F2s. That being said it also applies to crossing back to foundation LaMancha or Nigerian animals. If you cross a F2 to a LaMancha, the kids will be still be one generation higher than the lowest generation parent. The lowest is foundation, so the kids will be F1s. Here's a brief chart to show how it works too.
LaMancha x F1 Mini = F1
F1 x F1 = F2
F2 x F2 = F3
F2 x F3 = F3
F2 x F6 = F3
F3 x F3 = F4
F4 x F5 = F5
F1 x F4 = F2

http://sweetgumminifarm.webstarts.com/minis.html

What is an F1 hybrid?

Posted by Vic High on February 13, 1999 at 22:09:27 PT:

This page isn't about ego trips and pissin contests to see who knows the most. It's meant to be about
sharing info and furthering our understanding of cannabis genetics. So here's a step in the right
direction. Anyone else want to join in?

What really is an F1 cross?

Well defining the terms P1, F1, F2, homozygous, and heterozygous can be a simple task, however,
applying them to applied genetics can often create confusion. Depending on your point of reference, a
plant could be described as any of these terms. For our specific field of interest it's important to further
define these terms to reduce confusion and protect the consumers. First I'll provide the classic scientific
definition of these and other related terms and then I'll dive into each term into detail.

Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of
homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation
and are not true breeding for that trait.(Clarke)

Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a
homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding
for that trait. (Clarke)

- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an
individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be
considered both homozygous or heterozygous. For instance, say you have two individuals that are both
short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.

#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw

They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf
trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous
individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by
others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed
leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.

For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because
as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are
often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem colour and potency. When taking
a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we
still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs. Using dogs is another
way to explain this, take a dobie for example, you can tell the difference between dobies, but you can
tell a dobie from another breed. Ya follow?

Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says
that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.

- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines.
ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.

F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a
hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.

F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources
don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As
well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.

- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique
traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid.
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross
of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a
Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid
between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.

- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants
until the industry adopts some standards. This is what this article will attempt to initiate. Clarke eludes to
standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding
communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards
makes the most sense and offers the best protection to the seedbank consumer.

Watts defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines.
This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not
true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1
seeds that they should expect uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from
being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents). [There are
exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone)]

F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor
will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify
terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.

What does this mean for the preceeding example? Well, the blueberry, romulan, skunk#1, NL#5, and
haze were all P1 true breeding seedlines or strains (another term that needs clarification). Romberry,
NL/Haze, and SK/NL were all F1 hybrids. Both the Romberry/NL/Haze and the RNHSN would be F2s.
Within each group the consumer can know what to expect for the price they are paying.

Few cannabis seedbanks (if any) and their breeders are following these definitions and are subsequently
creating confusion within the cannabis seedbuying community. This is a change that needs to happen.

Note: this is a rough draft to be published to the internet. Hopefully in time it or something similar will be
used to help establish an industry standard. Any comments and critism is welcome to aid in the
production of the final draft. Small steps like this can only benefit the cannabis community over the long
haul.

REFERENCES:

Clarke RC. 1981. Marijuana Botony Ronin Publishing, California

Colangeli AM. 1989. Advanced Biology notes. University of Victoria, BC

Futuyma DJ. 1986. Evolutionary Biology Sinauer Associates, Inc. Massachusetts

Klug & Cummings. 1986. Concepts of Genetics 2nd ed. Scott, Foresman, & comp. Illinois

Grossnickle & Russell. 1989. Stock quality improvement of yellow-cedar. Canada-BC Forest Resources
Developement Agreement (F.R.D.A.) Project 2.40

Watts. 1980. Flower & Vegetable Plant Breeding Grower Books, London

Wright JW Introduction to Forest Genetics Academic Press, San Francisco


Re: What is an F2 hybrid? - longer post

Posted by MrSoul on February 14, 1999 at 08:02:30
In Reply to What is an F1 hybrid? - longer post posted by Vic High.

Vic_~

Some folks may find the development of your points a bit difficult to follow due to some typos that cause
contradictions...but I knew what you meant {8o)_~

I agree there's a need for all cannabis aficionados to have a standard glossary. I agree with the terminology you
suggest and have always used it.

The subtlety of the F2 definition needs a bit more clarification IMO. I suggest the convention that an F2 be the
offspring of members from the same F1 generation. Using your F1 Romberry example, an F2 Romberry is the
offspring of two F1 Romberry parents. Your mixed F2 hybrids are what most of us have been simply referring to
as a ìmulti-wayî hybrid. But technically youíre right that itís an F2 because it is a generation created by two F1
generations.

The recombination potential of these two types of F2 should be emphasized. While an F2 Romberry may exhibit
traits ranging over all the possibilities inherent in the genetic palette of Romulan and Blueberry, the "mixed F2" has
almost infinitely more possible genetic recombinations due to the larger genepool of NL, SK#1, Haze, Romulan
and Blueberry.

Having made the above clarifications to your comments, Iíd like to expand on the subject of F2ís just a bit. More
people should be aware of the IMPORTANCE of the F2 generation in breeding.

It's easy to be confused by terms that have more than one interpretation, depending on the context. F2 seeds are
generally considered by the seed-buying public to be an inferior product. This may be a true statement ñ for
example, in the case of a seed bank selling Jack Herer seeds WITHOUT STATING that they were created by
crossing two Jack Herer plants from Sensi Seed Bankís F1 stock. These seeds are an F2 generation of Jack Herer
in the classic definition of the term. The F2 generation is NOT going to produce the same results as the F1 in
terms of the similarity of the plants in the groupÖthey will vary in their characteristics rather than all of them
being essentially identical. Such a scam rips off the buyer expecting a uniform crop of Jack Herer.

Now hereís the ìkickerî ñ because of the negative connotation of the example of an F2 above, some have the
mistaken impression that any member of the F2 generation is undesirable as a plant. This is NOT necessarily true.
Quite the contrary; the F2 generation is a treasure trove of possibilities. The recombination of genes produces a
variety of different plants, among which there may be individuals of great value. This is actually the source for
future true-breeding strains. A breeder who recognizes an outstanding and unique individual from an F2 group can
work with it to create a true-breeding hybrid strain such as was done with classics like Skunk #1 and Northern
Lights. The methods to accomplish this task vary, but back crossing to the original unique plant is typically a part
of a process which ultimately must accomplish the goal of creating a strain which breeds true for all the important
traits which made the unique individual so valuable.

I hope the above will enlighten.


Re: Soul - thanks for the F2 additions

Posted by Vic High on February 14, 1999 at 10:40:34
In Reply to Re: What is an F2 hybrid? - longer post posted by MrSoul.

I too wanted to expand on the subject of pros and cons of the F2 but didn't want to further complicate the original
post. This is all going towards a genetics section at the BCGA webpage. Mind if I add your additions? I think
your points are very important.

Now your Jack Herer example brings up an interesting point that I was trying to make. Jack Herer is a multi-way
cross between a skunk/NL and a haze wasn't it? We talked about this in the the past but I can exactly remember
the concenses on which way it was created. Was the skunk/NL a stabilized inbred line at the time of the cross? If I
remeber right the initial feedback of Jack Herer was that it was variable but that there were excellent individuals
within the mix. If this was the case, then it would seem that the Skunk/NL was a hybrid and not a true breeding
seedline. (If I'm wrong about this particular example lets just assume otherwise for the sake of argument since
many new "strains" are from hybrid parents.)

Even though Jack Herer was technically an F1 hybrid of the SK/NL and haze, it could also be said to be an F2
seedline. For the purpose of the seedbuyer, which term would be more useful? By calling it an F1, is the consumer
being mislead into what to expect from the seeds? But then calling them an F2 makes it hard to distinguish them
from the more variable knock offs.

I think creating a standard where all seedlines coming from unstabilized parents should simply be considered to be
F2 in general. This would help seperate the serious breeders from the not so serious. It would also put pressure on
the breeders to slow down and take their time when making new strains.

Your princess is a good example of this. It's a killer clone and you could have simply made crosses with it and
called them F1s even though they would behave like F2s. But instead you are taking the time to stabilize her
genetics by cubing. You have created a sound building block for the developement of new true F1 hybrids.

Once the designation of F1, F2, and IBL (inbred line=true breeding) is standardized, it would make it easier to
standardize pricing structures and bring them in line. Now both F1s and F2s are valuable in their own ways, but
generally speaking one would need less F1 seeds than F2 seeds to find what they are looking for. Therefore F2
seeds should be priced lower than F1s. Also, anyone under the sun could make quality F2s from a relatively small
number of F1s so this should also affect the pricing by lowering it.

But what about the IBLs? Well these can be the most valuable of all the seedlines so at first one would expect
them to be the highest price. However, because of their true breeding nature, if they are priced too high, it would
make it easy for someone to create a less expensive knock off as I have with blueberry. Many breeders simply
don't release the IBLs to protect their investment and will instead rely on creating F1 hybrids for market.

It's a tough call to decide what should be priced higher but supply and demand will probably dictate that a true F1
will be the highest priced seeds. Then the IBLs, followed by the F2 seedlines. I suspect that there should be a
further breakdown in the F2 catagory to distinguish between original F2s (technically F1s or mixed hybrids) and
their knock-offs.



Re: What is an F2 hybrid? - longer post

Posted by MrNugget on February 16, 1999 at 04:15:21:
In Reply to Re: What is an F2 hybrid? - longer post posted by MrSoul.

Excellent posts from both of you guys...probably beyond the scope of most of the people who frequent this
site...I feel that an F1 hybrid should be labeled as such if the P1 parents are true breeding...taking an F1 female
from NL#5 and crossing with an F1 male from Romulan would make a first generation cross of these two hybrids,
but would theoretically be an F2 generation...but if the cross is made by F1 hybrids from two seperate lines then
the gene pool would be far more vast then if the two F1 parents were from the same strain...for the grower or
breeder that would be an enormous inconsistency in the F2 generation--which can be great for the breeder, but bad
for the grower...what that means is that the grower would have to buy a large amount of F2 seeds in order to find
the particular plant to suit his needs i.e.yield, potency, taste etc. so his chances of finding a killer plant might take
20 or 30 seeds...seed companies have to take this into account and offer F2 seeds at lower prices, of course they
should explain what the differences are in True breeding, F1, and F2 seeds, that way growers can make a
choice...now if only the seed companies can be consistent with F1 hybrids...I just hope the breeders for these
companies have pride and integrity as a driving force....peace


Posted by solsteve on October 22, 1999 at 10:32:53 ET:

In Reply to: Here's that repost - What is an F1? posted by Vic High on October 22, 1999 at 00:00:50 ET:

That was a great post Vic, I think it gave a lot of people food for thought. I just wanted to add my two cents. An F1 is a cross conceived from the genes of two
different strains. If the parents are true breeding (very rare), then the resulting offspring will follow Mendelís law and the resulting recombinations will be fairly
predictable. If you seed the desirable plants together, brothers and sisters, from the F1 population you will see more ancestral lines showing up in the population
making it far less predictable. If I take a choice male plant from the F1 population and seed it back to the original mother, or original father with the daughter, I am
trying to fix the traits of those particular plants. I call this an F1 Back cross. When I grow out these plants and use the winner with the original mother or father
again I recognize this union as a double backcross. You'd feel quite sick thinking of this in human terms.
Important clarifications are required regarding the system of classification. It is true, I'm only telling you how I define these occurrences. So at least you can
interpret my descriptions. The F2 hybrid, to my way of thinking, is the result of the union between the choicest brothers and sisters in an F1 population. This lineage
is still hybrid (unstabilized hybrid at that) but on its way to becoming a homogenous hybrid if inbred, or backcrossed, for several generations until all the plants
represent the ideal. This way if I pick out the winner (the plant most closely resembling the ideal) from the F2 population, seed it and subsequently backcross those
seeds to it I call it an F2 Backcross, or doublebackcross (F2DBX) if the procedure is repeated. I could not just call the backcross the F2 as those Germans do
because I generally keep a few lines of each strain, some backcrossed and some inbred. I've only kept up to three separate lineages in each direction
(inbred=forward, backcross=backwards). If you cross F1's or F2's with F1's or F2's from another lineage you've got a whole lot of sorting through an enormous
amount of recombinations. Very few of the plants will even appear related. The progeny will resemble a mixed bag of seed with a tremendous amount of variation,
describing what the buds will be like is virtually impossibe other than to say that no two will be alike. F1 seeds are desirable to growers for their vigour, stabilized
strains on the other hand are desired for their predictability of cropping and ease of hybridizing for breeders. Most cannabis seed sold today is intended for
growers, not breeders. The grower doesn't care how stable a plant's lineage, the grower is just going to clone it again and again to efficiently reap its fruit. When
growers play at breeding they inevitably make some mistakes, it's called learning. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes, and perhaps we can warn others. Good
Luck, Have Fun, and Stay Safe!!!

Question for chimera.

Posted by Watchtower on December 01, 1999 at 21:33:26 ET:
O.k, now the seed that grew the blueberry f2 plants came from sagarmatha, who sells the orignal version of dj short blueberry, the f1 variety. If the seed stock was
created by growing a female and male plant to breed for seed stock, why would the fl generation stop breeding true? Thats what bcga did when the created the f2.
Howcome once you create an fl variety, it dose not creat a seed stock that is f1 variety seed stock? So in otherwords, if I am understanding you right, I go buy the
original version of blueberry from sagarmatha I find one good female and male in the bunch and I breed them together and create my own seeds they will nolonger
be f1 even though the parents were f1,truebreeders? Is this correct?


Re: Then why do they cost so much?

Posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 01:51:16 ET:
In Reply to: Then why do they cost so much? posted by watchtower on December 02, 1999 at 00:40:46 ET:
Basically because they give you the best chance of finding a predictible phenotype with the yield and vigour worth momming up :) And they are the hardest for a
reliable knockoff to be created from, thus protecting the breeder.

I found better mothers choosing from ...

Posted by Ganja Baron on December 02, 1999 at 06:15:30 ET:
In Reply to: Re: Then why do they cost so much? posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 01:51:16 ET:
100 true breeding plants, then from 10-or 20 F1´s of an instable nature. If you want to get a good F1 mother you need with most strains at least 30 or more plants
which can be very expensive, cause you can´t breed your own seeds.
Baron

Re: I found better mothers choosing from ...

Posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 10:56:42 ET:
In Reply to: I found better mothers choosing from ... posted by Ganja Baron on December 02, 1999 at 06:15:30 ET:
Ganga Baron*******************************************
F1´s of an instable nature
******************************************************
This is the main point of what many of us have been trying to address here the last couple days, if they are instable, in the way you use the term, then they are not
F1's but should be classes as an F2. True F1s will be as uniform as a pure breeding strain but have the potential of more vigour, yield and potency.


Vic- Question regarding F1's and increased potency

Posted by Chimera on December 04, 1999 at 20:40:07 ET:
In Reply to: Re: I found better mothers choosing from ... posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 10:56:42 ET:
As far As I could tell from the literature on the suject (university of mississipi published some in 60's 70's) I thought that F1's had potency intermediate of thier two
parental strains (high thc X low THC). Doesn't this conflict with the Hybrid Vigor argument for potency. I always felt that DP's description in thier cataloge ie- "this
means that all F1 will be a lot more potent" was misleading. Your or anyones thoughts..?
-Chimera

Re: Vic- Question regarding F1's and increased potency

Posted by hand on December 05, 1999 at 01:02:24 ET:
In Reply to: Vic- Question regarding F1's and increased potency posted by Chimera on December 04, 1999 at 20:40:07 ET:
yes,if you do the cross in your example highXlow,you will get intermediate.if you do highxhigh your chances of increase improve.the best f1 hybreds are made with
two true breeding or inbred strains that are potent and have different kinds of highs,sativa x indica this combines the head and the body.highxhigh2.if you do a cross
of two different breeds that have much of the same characteristics the cross will likey be an even mix of the two,stable,vigor improves,but somtimes the potency
will cancel out.hybreds have to be tested to see if there is actually an improvement over the original breeds used.its kind of like a mixed drink um tastes good but
diluted from the original.some hybreds are worth buying and trying because there unique you cant make it youself,you either dont know the mix,or the breeder is
using a special mom and breeding his indica,if the mom is special enough she will throw a good cross even if the indica drifts a little from the original.a hybred thats
been around awhile and is still the same has someone special behind it.too produce the same hybred year after year is a feat.you have to keep two distinct breeds
going strong and the same without drift.genes are more like switches that you turn on or off to get the desired effect.if a plant already has the right switches flipped it
is easyer to work with,and the result is less of a gamble.individual results may vary


Re: Vic- Question regarding F1's and increased potency

Posted by Vic High on December 05, 1999 at 13:31:00 ET:
In Reply to: Vic- Question regarding F1's and increased potency posted by Chimera on December 04, 1999 at 20:40:07 ET:
Exellent qyuestion, I'll give it my bets shot. What I say isn't gospel, so anyone able or willing to add to or correct what I say, please do so.

Your right, in theory this is pretty much exactly what happens, potency is usually an average of both parents. However, vigour often distorts this so that what we
observe does not always coincide with the theory. I think that a strain has a potential potency based on it's genetics, but due to not being totally happy with it's
environment, it doesn't always live up to it's potential. An IBL with it's reduced vigour will be less likely to live up to it's genetic potential than say a very vigorous
hybrid.

For example, lets look at my romberry, a cross of blueberry and romulan. That first line of blueberry I have lacks vigour, or is a bitch to grow as I put it. I've been
growing the same original clones since 96/97. She usually produces nice buds that are well recieved, the high is nice, but some would like more. Then about every
3 or 4 crops, I succeed in giving her exactly what she wants, and she rocks!! Respectable yields and with top notch buds with a respectable kick. However, with
romberry, with it's increased vigour, I can pretty much dial into it's needs all the time and observe it's best just about every crop. Romulan's potency is at least three
times blueberry's average potency. But romberry's potency is usually about 3/4 that of romulan, higher than the average of the two. But it's potency is pretty close
to the average of romulan's best and blueberry's best.

So say you combine two IBLs of equal potency, your potential potency probably won't improve much. But you should observe an increase in potency simply as a
result of the added vigour. Hope this makes sense :)

Vic's got the answer

Posted by Chimera on December 02, 1999 at 11:32:01 ET:
In Reply to: Question for chimera. posted by Watchtower on December 01, 1999 at 21:33:26 ET:
As Vic stated, blueberyy is an IBL. At this point, the version available from Marc Emery and the Amsterdam Hemporium Coffe shop (direct from DJ himself) are
in their 5th or 6th generation of inbreeding (F5-F6). At this point, the traits for which DJ selects should be stable. There may be some unstable traits but the strain
should breed true for the most part.
When Bluberry was first released commercially(Sagamartha)the plants had not been inbred for as many generations. Therefore any seed bought early on (ie-before
a year and a half to two years ago) may not be as stable as the current selection offered by DJ.
This is a great plant to use as a P1, or parental generation because of it's stability. You can see this from the success of its hybrids (shishkaberry, blue domino, and
the NL X BB crosses etc.) If it is crossed to an unrelated strain (prefeably also stable) THESE offspring will be an F1.
Check the posts below by Daniel and Vic, they also have some good input on this topic.
ABOUT SAGAMARTHA- DJ no longer sells to these guys, he sold about 500 or so seeds to them 3-4 years ago for which he was never paid (as I understand
it). This is why he no longer supplies them. That leads me to believe that they have started their own line from his genetics.

As far as Dutch Passion goes, DJ claims that they sell seeds that he produced. When I was over there, they tried to pull some shit about how they created it from
their own stock etc. I don't know how DJ feels about this, but the people at the seed bank could also have not known what they were talking about. There just too
much misinformation on this topic to really know. As for the all female BBs now available from them, DJ doesn't sell them so DP must be making their own.

As for creating your own, depending on which generation you got seed from, you will have some stable and some unstable traits. Now you will select for the traits
that you desire, which will probably differ from DJs original goals, so your seeds may of may not represent the strain that DJ now sells. Hope this helps.
-Chimera

Hey Chimera :)

Posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 21:13:41 ET:
In Reply to: Vic's got the answer posted by Chimera on December 02, 1999 at 11:32:01 ET:
It's a pleasure meeting someone who can talk the talk :)

Since you seem fairly up on the blueberry heritage, maybe you can help solve some of the information and conflicting information about it. One DJ article suggests
blueberry came from some berry kushes, then in the followup article in Cannabis World, DJ suggests blueberry is actually Afghani heritage. I'm not going to
pretend I know alot about the classic strains (blueberry is classic to me ;) so these two statements seem to conflict for me. Any insight?

Another confusing point made by first Marc Emery and now you. You both seem to suggest that the blueberry genetics haven't been inundated with foreign
genetics (like bubbleberry) and that it is still the same line, but just further inbred. This completely conflicts with what the seed description says and what I've
observed. If blueberry was further inbred, I would expect it to have less vigour, but in fact the opposite is true. If you can trace your blueberry to the first batch
offered by Sag, you will get one phenotype, a real bitch to grow. But any blueberry aquired after that will show more vigour. I must admit that I have only two
experiences with the initial blueberry release, but both are of identical phenotype. The first is what I bought way back from Marc Emery. The second were some
second generation I got from a friend in the UK who says he bought the parents direct from Sag and that it was their first batch. Like I said, both of these are very
similar, consistent, and show symptoms of being inbred for 10 years in a closet. Now after that date, whether from Sag, Marc, or DP, the blueberries were much
more robust, but I have noticed as you suggest, that the initial batches were somewhat variable, but that they have been becoming more consistent over time.

The evidence suggests this:

that DJ inbred blueberry for 10 years in a small closet like grow for ten years as he has stated. He then made an initial release of these but got complaints of their
lack of vigour. Or for some other reason, he then crossed it with bubbleberry (dutch genetics) as his seed description suggests, and has been stabilizing that cross
ever since. And as you say is now at generation 5 or 6. Despite the new revelations by you and Marc Emery, this is what the evidence and archived info suggests.
Otherwise, how do we explain that the new, further inbred, version is more robust than the older version? What's your thoughts?


Re: Hey Chimera :)

Posted by Chimera on December 03, 1999 at 14:48:24 ET:
In Reply to: Hey Chimera :) posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 21:13:41 ET:
Hey Vic, How ya doin?
This is what I know about the heritage, unfortunately there seems to be a lot of pollitics involved which really muddy the waters on the subject.

Dj bred this and his other strains all from the same gene pools, he just took different routes and incorporated different strains in further geerations. I also notcied
some incongruences between his hightimes and Cannabis Culture articles ( I wasn't to pleased with the CC article, he realy didn't say much in it so I'm looking
forward to the follow up article). DJ did the original breeding from the berry kushes as per hightimes article. Sag sold the first commercial version, and subsequently
bred a Blueberry bubblegum cross. I highly doubt that DJ then rebred that cross into the original, Sag screwed him and didn't pay for the seeds, in fact they sold
many more that DJ originally gave them, so they must of cut him out and stole the strain to sell as their own. This is where Marc and DP enter the picture as
AUTHORIZED DEALERS whatever that means.
The only thing that I can think of to clarify the Kush/ Afghan argument is that the Kush mountains (where the name kush came from) are in afghanistan. He may use
these terms interchangeably which obviously leads to confusion. This is like saying BC genetics are the same as Canadian genetics, its Kinda true, but definitely not
precise. As for the initial vigor and stability goes, I didn't get to the blueberry untill Marc and Sita (Amsterdam Cafe in Vancouver) started carrying them, so I really
shouldn't comment on anything prior to that. I'll recheck the HT and CC articles and see if I can come up with a better answer. As a side note, DJ won't do
business with Sag anymore, and Sag won't do business with Marc anymore (they told me that he is not authorized to sell Sag seeds). Adam (TH seeds) was also
somewhat disgruntled that he didn't recieve any agknowledgement for his contribution to the Bubbleberry cross. Goes to show that this is in fact a SEEDY
business, and we should all do what we can to legitimize it wherever we can.
Peace to all, and hopefully your individual blueberries are sweet and stony. -Chimera


Re: Hey Chimera :)

Posted by Vic High on December 03, 1999 at 18:07:46 ET:
In Reply to: Re: Hey Chimera :) posted by Chimera on December 03, 1999 at 14:48:24 ET:
With what you know of Marc and your "business man" quote, I sometimes wonder if we've met before ;)

Anyway, thanks for your insight. I think I remeber blueberry being around for about a year before DJ and Sag announced their splitting of ways. That whole deal
has always turned me off of Sag genetics. Like I've said before, if I was to spend the big bucks on any DJ stock, I would buy from the suppliers supplying the real
deal.

Chimera**********************************
Adam (TH seeds) was also somewhat disgruntled that he didn't recieve any agknowledgement for his contribution to the Bubbleberry cross
**************************************************

I assume you are talking about the bubblegum? I was yacking with RC about his bubblegum and asking what it's source was. He said it was supplied from the
original breeder of bubblegum, but I forgot the name he tossed my way. Would this be the same person? I gotta start keeping track of these things, haha, before
the knowledge is lost forever in the politics. What makes things even tougher is how often who we think is the breeder (the front man) and the real breeder (behind
the scenes) are not the same person.

Yes this is a seedy business, and I'm with ya on finding a way to legitimize it. Got any suggestions? I think these forums will help, as it's hard to keep the truth
hidden for too long. But us breeders will need an incentive to change our ways. Like maybe customers avoiding seedbanks who practice questionable business
ethics, and not giving into the hype and/or great deals.

Re: Hey Chimera :)

Posted by Chimera on December 03, 1999 at 18:23:23 ET:
In Reply to: Re: Hey Chimera :) posted by Vic High on December 03, 1999 at 18:07:46 ET:
Vic,
you are most right, I miss-typed and put Bubblebrry instead of Bubblegum. Adam claimed to be the breeder of Bubblegum, but really, who knows? You
mentioned RC, I don't know him.
As for the legitimacy issue, I think it will only be truly possible when it becomes legal. Only then can the breeders come out in the open and represent their own
strains. Then again, there are just as many knockoffs in Holland (if not more). I think it's really up to the buyer to chose whether he wants to support the original or
get the cheap one, unfortunately our future is in their hands.
Be safe -Chimera ;}



F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future!

Posted by Watchtower on December 01, 1999 at 10:52:47 ET:
They will be the way of the future. They will bring seed prices down considerbly. One good expamle is bcga blueberry for $25. Seed vendors will try to convince
you to go for the expensive f1 varieties. I predict that more professional growers will come onto the growing scene and take these expense $100 or more strains
and create f2 knockoffs and they will sell them to seedvenders or seedcompanies. People, of coarse, will love paying $25 for white widow as oppossed to
$125.,only one of many examples. I cannot beleive that their would be too much difference between an f1 variety and f2 variety other then one huge inflated price.


DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!!

Posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 14:10:47 ET:
In Reply to: F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future! posted by Watchtower on December 01, 1999 at 10:52:47 ET:
Attention People!!
"I cannot beleive that their would be too much difference between an f1 variety and f2 variety other then one
huge inflated price."-Watchtower
This is an example of a statement by someone who doesn't understand the science behind genetics. I have a degree in molecular genetics, and am very interested in
cannabis breeding- if anyone wants to discuus this please leave a post!

F2s are most definietly not the way of the future. I don't own a commercial seedbank, so please don't take this as spam. First of all, people have a real problem
when discussing issues such as purebreeding strians, F1 and F2 generation. Any strain is condsidered to be true breeding if the traits that are chosen by the breeder
are continually represented is every generation of seed from the same strain. This is accomplishedby chosing specific traits and "fixing" them into the plants by
inbreeding. For example, DJ Short (who by the way invested ten years of his life develloping Blueberry) chose plants that exhibited the blue tinge for many
generations. He also incorporated traits such as early maturation and type of high into his strain. For the most part, these characteristics breed true when you cross
two blueberry plants. This is because at this loci (the place where this gene is situated in the genome) the plants have the same version of the gene is present.
Many genes have more than one possible version (called alleles) that can be present, but a plant can only have a maximum of two of the versions (remeber that
most organisms other that some virus' have two copies of each chromosome, that means one copy of each gene on each chromosome). When an individual plant
has two copies of the same allele, it is said to be homozygous. If this plant is crossed with another individual who is homozygous for the SAME allele, all of the
offspring will breeed true for that triat. However, there are thousands upon thousands of other genes present in this stain that don't breed true. When another
breeder now comes along and crosses two blueberry plants, the plant may breed true for those initial characteristics, but the other genes will assort independantly
and randomly with respect to the first gene. What this means is that if you go and buy blueberry from another company, you may end up with plants that look
nothing like the originals, except that they smell the same or have the blue tinge. Blueberry is more that just smell and colour; it has great a growth pattern, nice
high,and good yield. The "Fakes" may not contain these other traits.
AN F1 is a cross beween two PUREBREEDING (truebreeding) strians. If the srains are in fact truebreeding, the F1s (the offsrpring of the parents) will all look
similar for the most part. When we cross two F1's (a brother and sister) their kids will not look like them for all traits. The F2 generation will show a huge
variability among traits.
You may be able to find a good plant for cloning from these
F2s, but you would have to grow very many (50-500) so it's just not worth it Not only that, Selling F2s isn't very ethical- DJ puts years of work into developping
this strain, let him reap the rewards for his hard work. Really, is the extra Hundred bucks not worth the quality and stability that youd be paying for?- spend the
money on the originals, and you'l be much happier than if you don't
-Chimera

Here, let me help you understand that theory ;)

Posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 01:29:27 ET:
In Reply to: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!! posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 14:10:47 ET:

BTW - where did you get that degree in molecular genetics?

Chimera*******************************************
However, there are thousands upon thousands of other genes present in this stain that don't breed true.
**************************************************
Now how many of these heterozygous genes have a noticeable effect on blueberry's phenotype? The breeder has selected for more than what you suggest, he has
selected for all the traits important to the grower, or at least I would assume any decent grower would after 10 years of selection. Why would he select for
undesireable triats? I see the point you are trying to make, but I feel it is misplaced. Any true breeding strain will breed true for all the phenotypical traits important
to the grower, or the growers would bitch about them being too variable, and not true breeding. And for the record, blueberry does breed true for more that the
berry smell and blue colour, hehe.

Chimera******************************************
Blueberry is more that just smell and colour; it has great a growth pattern, nice high,and good yield. The "Fakes" may not contain these other traits.
****************************************************
So how can the original breeder guarantee these will come out in his release if they are unstable? You don't make sense here, and as I said, they do breed true for
the important phenotypically expressed traits. The only traits that randomly assort are the silent and non expressive redundant genes.

Within any truebreeding strain, there is a natural amount of accepted variation, this is important for maintaining a certain level of vigour. Ever go to a dog show?
You will see several of a single breed (a pure breeding strain) in the ring at the same time, but each will look a little different from the next, but each dog is
definately a good representative of the breed, or it wouldn't be in the ring ;) This is what you are talking about when mentioning the thousands and thousands of
heterozygous genes?

Now a breeder can influence the look of a breed by selecting for or against some of these insignificant traits. After several generations, he can change it enough to
actually create a new breed, but this would take several generations. Ditto for plants, I think this is what you were trying to say, but your message got distorted by
the timeline you suggest.

This gradual drift from generation to generation (more on this if I remeber) is why I still have clones of my original blueberry purchase. That way, the bulk of the
blueberry produced is the same as that very first seed crop which was and still is 2nd generation. There is very little chance that there could be a significant
difference between these and the originals because they are only 1 generation removed. If it was 10 generations, that would be a different story.

Or at least that is what I'm hoping for :) You see, I am selecting for plants void of the deformities that are powdery mildew resistant, more vigorous, better yielding,
and more consistent of producing that rich blueberry smell. Basically, less bitchy plants ;) And hopefully create a completely new version of blueberry ;)

Good to meet ya!!

Re: Here, let me help you understand that theory ;)

Posted by Chimera on December 03, 1999 at 17:21:01 ET:
In Reply to: Here, let me help you understand that theory ;) posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 01:29:27 ET:

Vic, your points are well taken, but you do back up some of my points here. The fact that you are selecting for traits such as yield, mold resistance vigour show
without a doubt that some of the genes in the plant are heterozygous, if they weren't, you wouldn't have the variations of which you discuss (unless they were
caused by environmental difference).
As for the "Fakes" not being stable, what I meant was that they would't be as stable as those CURRENTLY offered by the breeder. If you purchased your parents
from DJ in the first or second generation, they may not be as stable as DJ's current F5/F6. (I must point out to anyone reading this that Vic really does seem know
his genetics, and seems to be including important traits which DJ didn't consider to the same extent in his original breeding goals, so cudo's to Vic for improving his
version of blueberry :).
By the way, variability is not necessarilly a bad thing. Some growers may wan't small stocky blueberries for sea of green, and others may want bigger individuals
for their own needs. Stability really only becones a factor for those growing crops from seed with no plans of cloning, of for people like Vic who would like to
reproduce and sell cheaper versions of strains.
There are also many traits involved in biological processec that a breeder couldn't possibly breed for, and these may effect the phenotypic expression of other
traits. Having said all of this, maybe we shouls have a blueberry cup, where all of the currently available versions could be made avialable, and only then could we
really decide whos is best. In the mean time, people can only choose to buy seed on their own criteria. Some may want cheap versions, some may want stable
versions (not that the cheap ones aren't stable), and some may want to support the original breeder for combining the desired traits. There has been some
discussion on the ethical concerns of reproducing others strains, but that isn't what we are discussing here. Mind you consider Monsanto's ( a major player in the
Agribusiness) products, some of which contain the so called "terminator" gene. This gene make the plants sterile, they can't produce seeds so that farmers must buy
the seeds year after year and also stops others from "reproducing" their strains (which they did spend considerable time and money developping). If we aren't
careful, the canabis world may soon have to deal with these issues if we don't watch our step.
-Chimera P.S. Sorry for the book, I got on a roll and couldn't stop. Peace!


Re: Here, let me be less cocky, hehe

Posted by Vic High on December 03, 1999 at 18:59:54 ET:
In Reply to: Re: Here, let me help you understand that theory ;) posted by Chimera on December 03, 1999 at 17:21:01 ET:

Chimera***************************************
The fact that you are selecting for traits such as yield, mold resistance vigour show without a doubt that some of the genes in the plant are heterozygous, if they
weren't, you wouldn't have the variations of which you discuss (unless they were caused by environmental difference).
************************************************

point well taken, you are right, and no I won't try and suggest anything Lamarkian ;) Since this is up your alley, I would just like to suggest that not all variation from
generation to generation would be attributed to the heterozygous condition. Many genes are in a dormant state and kept that way by supressor genes. And that
crossing over is quite frequent in gene pairs and sometimes a dormant gene and it's supressor can become seperated and therefore the dormant gene activated.
There are several similar scenarios which can account for variability developing where there was none. You could take a 100% homozygous population (if there
was such a thing) and let it randomly interbreed. It wouldn't take long to start seeing variation within the population if it was allowed to breed without selective
pressures in an uncontrolled environment. Such is nature.

Chimera******************************************
so cudo's to Vic for improving his version of blueberry :)
*************************************************
Thanks, but still a long ways to go here, so the cudo's is premature ;)

Chimera*********************************************
maybe we shouls have a blueberry cup, where all of the currently available versions could be made avialable, and only then could we really decide whos is best.
*******************************************************
What an awesome idea, unfortunately it shouldn't be me on this one. Even if I received the beans in numbered form, it wouldn't take me long to identify which came
from where. So my observations could be questioned as being biased. Not sure if you picked up on some of the other shit I've been posting about, but I will be
doing this with some other strains. Because it's another that's often hotly debated I think I will be starting with white widow ;)

As for whos is best, I think it will depend on the intended use of the blueberry. IMO, If I was looking for a special clone mom to use in a blueberry crop to send to
market, I would look to DJ's blueberry without a doubt. But if that's the case, bubbleberry is even a better choice. If I was looking for breeding parents, then that
first release is where I would look the hardest. For the connoseur personal grow? this is where the waters get murkey, hehe. Everyone has a different opinion on
this one, haha. When doing a blind taste test of siblings from the same seed crop, it's easy to get a consensus of which are the best. However, when I try and get
them to pick the best of the best, people's tastes are all over the board when it comes to blueberry.

Chimera*****************************************
There has been some discussion on the ethical concerns of reproducing others strains, but that isn't what we are discussing here.
*************************************************
it would be cool to get a bunch of the breeders together and openly discuss this. Maybe set some guidelines for us to follow. We are a multicultural community and
ethics will vary from region to region. One of the pains of globalization I guess. There are pros and cons to the threat of knockoffs. The cons are obvious, hehe. But
they also are benificial for giving breeders and seedbanks an incentive to keep their prices realistic. Well one can hope, haha.

terminator genes? ick

Re: DON'T not WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!!

Posted by F2 user on December 01, 1999 at 15:23:46 ET:
In Reply to: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!! posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 14:10:47 ET:
i grow only what friends send me and a few i get from the auctions. almost all are crosses of popular strains going around (white rhino x ww, sensi star x c88, and
other 88 crosses, nl x jh and f2's of bb, nl5, cali-o, dp and dp crosses, etc etc etc) and have yet to find a dog. i am particular about selection and keeping only the
best seedlings tho. i start with 50 or so seedlings and usually end up with 5-8 excellent moms to work with. all this for making a few friends and sharing our f2's! i
like to buy the f1's also when i can but my main garden is made up of what other growers do. my spares are passed along and the rare times i find that "perfect
male" are sent out too. it's all 2-3 toke shit anyways...seems that only the flavor is different with most of the produce.

IOW, i agree with using f2's...so long as they are what they're said they are.


Re: DON'T not WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!!

Posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 15:43:45 ET:
In Reply to: Re: DON'T not WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!! posted by F2 user on December 01, 1999 at 15:23:46 ET:
That's great that you've had god luck with what you've been given. I'd like to point out one thing though... you wrote that you grew "f2's of bb, nl5, cali-o, dp and
dp crosses"
Only the DP crosses could possibly have been F2's. All of the others are inbred and truebreeding (to a certain degree) varieties. By taking a brother and a sister
and making a cross, this is just further inbreeding, and since you don't know all of the characteristics that were originally bred for in the original strain, your product
will be different from the original. I don't contest the fact that you got great pot, it's just not what you said it was. Instead of sayng that it's Dp or NL5 or BB, you
might say that it is bred from NL5, DP or BB stock. You can get good bud, even from stash seed, but some people want to by blueberry for all the traits, and they
may not get that when buying a knockoff- If you don't care what traits you get, then plant anything, there is always a chance you'll get something goo. Anyone
producing good bud is doing the right thing in my eyes, lets just give credit to breeders where it is due.


just a minor correction

Posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 01:38:37 ET:
In Reply to: Re: DON'T not WASTE YOUR TIME WITH F2s!!! posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 15:43:45 ET:
Chimera****************************************
By taking a brother and a sister and making a cross, this is just further inbreeding, and since you don't know all of the characteristics that were originally bred for in
the original strain, your product "will" be different from the original.
*************************************************

You are making a very bold, definate, and erroneous statement by using the word "will". Don't you think the word "may" would be more accurate? Again, a true
breeding strain will show insignificant drift within only one generation, or it isn't true breeding.


Re: just a minor correction

Posted by Chimera on December 03, 1999 at 15:18:22 ET:
In Reply to: just a minor correction posted by Vic High on December 02, 1999 at 01:38:37 ET:
Hey Vic,
you're right to a certian degree (In my opinion). I should have used the words "most likely be". We're venturing into a discussion on probabilities here. I agree that
DJ's selected traits are true breedeing, but I use the assumption that DJ bred for only a certain number of characteristics (it's not possible to breed for many traits
without genetic testing and careful biological and chemical analyses, which DJ doesn't do). I also assume, that at least some of the other "unselected" triats are
heterozygous ( due to the thousands and thousands of genes in the cannabis genome, homozygosity throughout the entire genome is highly unlikely) , which means
that they would recombine in Mendel's F2 results of 1:2:1. These heterozygous traits would therefor not breed true. Sorry I didn't make myself clear earlier, you
have a keen eye my friend!
-Chimera


Re: F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future!

Posted by Cannabis Pro on December 01, 1999 at 13:40:55 ET:
In Reply to: F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future! posted by Watchtower on December 01, 1999 at 10:52:47 ET:
Just a bit of info on hybridization and Differentiation:

By breeding or crossing two pure or stable strains will give birth to an F1 generation that will contain traits from both parents. All the F1 generation will be the same
in potency and genetic makeup.

As a result of the gene recombination F1 hybrids are not true breeding and must be reproduced from the original parental strains. The most common use of
hybridization is to cross two outstanding varieties. Hybrids can be produced by crossing selected individuals from different high potency strains of different origins,
such as Afghani and Hawaiian. These two parents may share only the characteristic of high psychoactivity and differ in nearly ever other aspect. There is agreat
amount of change in the gene pool. The offspring will all be nearly identical and the high potency trait will be carried into the F1 generation.

If the F1 generation is bred together this will produce an F2 generation. From this great exchange of genes many phenotypes may appear in the F2 generation.
Some short ,some tall, some potent some not so potent, and the possibility of color changes in flowers etc.

As an example consider the crossing of two pure strains: AFghani x Hawaiian. In this case genes are selected for high drug content from both parents. Genes for
strong stature and early maturation are selected from the Afghani seed parent, and genes for large calyx size and and sweet floral aroma are selected from the
hawaiian pollen parent. Many of the F1 offspring exhibit the desired characteristics( this why seed banks tend to sell only pure or F1 hybrid strains.

When an F1 generation is allowed to cross within itself the F2 generation is a source of VARIATION and RECESSIVE EXPRESSION. In the F2 generation
there are several individuals out of MANY that exhibit all five of the desired characteristics. F2 hybrids will appear with more extreme characteristics than either of
the original two parents.For example: P1(high THC) x P1(intermediate THC) yields F1 hybrids of intermediate to high THC.Selfing or inbreeding the F1 generation
yields F2 hybrids of high potency ,intermediate potency ,and low potency.

Well I don't know about anyone else but if I was spending my money on seeds I would want the best quality for my money. F2 generation seeds do not provide
that quality as compared to an F1 or pure strain. We beleive F2's should only be sold to a customer if that customer plans to use the seeds to breed out a new pure
strain and not to customers who want the best from every plant.

People selling F2 knockoffs should stae whether they are original F2 Plants or they simply inbred two pure parents. For those who want the best from each
individual plant go with a pure stable strain or a stable F1 strain. They are readily available from Ubino, Marc Emery, Dr Greenthumb, Heavens Stairway,
ourselves as well as many other seed banks across the globe!

Re: F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future!

Posted by Uncle Ben on December 01, 1999 at 23:22:58 ET:
In Reply to: Re: F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future! posted by Cannabis Pro on December 01, 1999 at 13:40:55 ET:
For the money, the F1's excellent consistency and outcome regarding potency and overall plant vigor and quality is the seasoned grower's first choice.

This is especially true for the vegetable and flower industry too.
Good advice and post Cannabis Pros.
Uncle Ben

Pro, Glad you Know your stuff, read this please!

Posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 14:38:10 ET:
In Reply to: Re: F2 knockoffs will be the way of the future! posted by Cannabis Pro on December 01, 1999 at 13:40:55 ET:

"By breeding or crossing two pure or stable strains will give birth to an F1 generation that will contain traits from both parents." - Cannabis Pro
This may not be always be true. If one parent is homozygous for a recessive trait, and the other parent is homozygous for the dominant allele, all offspring will
express the dominant trait phenotypically, but in the F2, some plants will again express the recessive trait.
"All the F1 generation will be the same in potency and genetic makeup." -Cannabis Pro
This is only true for trats for which both parents originally bred true.
Hey Pro, which is your seed co?
-Chimera

Re: Pro, Glad you Know your stuff, read this please!

Posted by Cannabis Pro on December 01, 1999 at 18:58:13 ET:
In Reply to: Pro, Glad you Know your stuff, read this please! posted by Chimera on December 01, 1999 at 14:38:10 ET:
True. You are 100% right. Sorry I should have added that to my note. That is the reason why it is not always beneficial to breed two pure strains. Seen many a F1
that was well below expectations and the cross was no longer performed. Sometimes they do not come out the way they are expected to. Damn if we could only
control mother nature we've had it made! Nice to see new names around here! Peace!