What do you get from an F1 crossed to an F2?

[fractal]

Say you have F2 beans of a strain and then you pop some original F1s of it, and pollinate the F2 female. Is this like F1.5 or something?

 

[Myco]

Pretty sure that would be considered a BX...?

 

[fractal]

Oh shit you're probably right LOL, didn't occur to me.

 

[Sativied]

You could call it an BX1. Backcrossing back to an F1 however is usually not a good idea. F1s are heterozygous (if based on crossing two stable lines which in practice isn't always the case) and for backcrossing to be useful in terms of stabilizing you need to cross back to a homozygous plant. By crossing back to an F1 you generate more variety, similar to crossing F1xF1, unless the F2 happens to be homozygous for the traits that matter, which is very unlike F2.

 

[william76]

You could call it an BX1. Backcrossing back to an F1 however is usually not a good idea. F1s are heterozygous (if based on crossing two stable lines which in practice isn't always the case) and for backcrossing to be useful in terms of stabilizing you need to cross back to a homozygous plant. By crossing back to an F1 you generate more variety, similar to crossing F1xF1, unless the F2 happens to be homozygous for the traits that matter, which is very unlike F2.

Isn't the resulting gen not an ix?,76

 

[WalterWhiteFire]

If the F1 was used to make the f2's then it would be a BX.

Your situation would probably be considered a new F1 generation if I had to guess.

 

[Sativied]

If the F1 was used to make the f2's then it would be a BX.

Your situation would probably be considered a new F1 generation if I had to guess.

If the F1 was a heterozygous hybrid it becomes a little less important that the F1 isn't actually the parent that produced the F1 seeds because F1s all have a very similar heterozygous combination of alleles. F1 implies it's heterozygous and in turn implies certain results and ratios in the F2 which won't actually be the case. I think F2 would actually fit better than F1, because like F2 it will have more segregation of traits and more scrambled alleles than an F1.

Isn't the resulting gen not an ix?,76

IX would be more specific than BX indeed. And my comment could be summed up instead as IX-ing doesn't give the same result one can get from proper BX-ing (to an homozygous/IBL, e.g. a parent of the F1) unless the plant you IX back to is homozygous (which typically isn't the case, else you'd be done).

I wouldn't call this anything because I wouldn't cross back to an F1 and especially not repeatedly so there would be no point in giving it an BX or IX generation. And that's why I said "could call it" instead of "it is". OP's question is a trick question :)

In case of the OP's example it would make more sense to inbreed that F2 into F3 and F4 F5 etc etc, and then if that F1 plant has some special traits that need to be in it, backcross that into the stabilized version.

 

[WalterWhiteFire]

Smarty pants...hehe. Nice post.

 

[Puffntuff]

What is it called when you cross a brother into a sister?

 

[william76]

What is it called when you cross a brother into a sister?

If they're say f1,s then bro x sis f1. Equals f2,s,76

 

[VERMONTSKUNKS]

this thread made my head hurt with all the info in one page meh dudes .....good stuff thanks!

 

[outwest]

hillbilly :clown:

I was gonna say, living in Kentucky. lol

outwest

 

[zeke]

Damn you witty bastards I was gonna say Northern Cali. Don't get much more inbred and clannish than that. I mean have you been to Covelo? That's an F1 all day. Even if it has a bit of inter generational input, can't lose track of the actual filial generation. Anytime new parentals get together it's f1 unless they are siblings( bros and sis) it doesn't matter if an uncle or aunt gets thrown back in the mix. We recognize the backflow of genetic info but have no technical term for its use other than a "close" breeding. True backcrossing must utilize a parental (any parental, any generation) more than once. Recurrent parental. Anything else is just a close or tight breeding. That's what my Brony homies tell me anyway....

 

[outwest]

Damn you witty bastards I was gonna say Northern Cali. Don't get much more inbred and clannish than that. I mean have you been to Covelo? That's an F1 all day. Even if it has a bit of inter generational input, can't lose track of the actual filial generation. Anytime new parentals get together it's f1 unless they are siblings( bros and sis) it doesn't matter if an uncle or aunt gets thrown back in the mix. We recognize the backflow of genetic info but have no technical term for its use other than a "close" breeding. True backcrossing must utilize a parental (any parental, any generation) more than once. Recurrent parental. Anything else is just a close or tight breeding. That's what my Brony homies tell me anyway....

Brony love!

outwest

 

[VEGBLOOMWSUP]

its an incross, NOT!!! a backcross.

a backcross is when you take a generation, outsource it for reg beans or male/female, than hit the original clone again (IE GOING BACK-BACKCROSS) there is no going back breeding f1 and f2, those are inbred, its an IX.

@JAWS @ExoticGenetix @Nspecta @obsoul33t @logic @Aligee @loompa

correct me if im wrong but there is no way to do a "backcross" without two steps of breeding correct?

 

[JAWS]

its an incross, NOT!!! a backcross.

a backcross is when you take a generation, outsource it for reg beans or male/female, than hit the original clone again (IE GOING BACK-BACKCROSS) there is no going back breeding f1 and f2, those are inbred, its an IX.

@JAWS @ExoticGenetix @Nspecta @obsoul33t @logic @Aligee @loompa

correct me if im wrong but there is no way to do a "backcross" without two steps of breeding correct?

ya that's always been my take of it, to get a back cross/bc/bx you need to make the hybrid first then find a good male from that hybrid then hit it back to the original parent mother.

ix any filial back to its original mother WITH OUT and outside genetics being involved.

the only reason i see making a bx/ix of anything is to get a clone only or a very hard to get seed strain into seed form WITH OUT doing the S1/FEM tech.

most all the bx and ix iv'e done or will do will be on clone only strain, for the main reason is simple i want to breed with her from the male side and to do that i need a male.



peace:writing:



ix's can be made with seed plants, bx as well but i don't see any reason to bx a plant that's get able in seed form already.

 

[Puffntuff]

Does this apply? Hahahhaa

 

[zeke]

Obviously we need to establish some sort of abbreviated working nomenclature to describe these recurring parentals and their "kin". Perhaps we can look toward the Appalachian Cultural Complex for helpful terms already in use to describe similar multi generational sibling matings. Colorful terminology like cousin brother and uncle daddy come to mind.

 

[Sativied]

ya that's always been my take of it, to get a back cross/bc/bx you need to make the hybrid first then find a good male from that hybrid then hit it back to the original parent mother.

Yes you do start out with a regular out cross to create the hybrid first, and while it's a good idea to use the same one,it doesn't have to be the original mother in every case to still call it the next back cross generation.

Although it's no the most authoritative source by any means, they specify it nicely on wikipedia:
"Backcrossed hybrids are sometimes described with acronym "BC", for example, an F1 hybrid crossed with one of its parents (or a genetically similar individual) can be termed a BC1 hybrid, and a further cross of the BC1 hybrid to the same parent (or a genetically similar individual) produces a BC2 hybrid."

Point is, if you don't use the original parent mother but a genetically similar individual from the same generation it would still be the next BX. If that "hybrid" is really an "F1 hybrid", or at least for the traits that matter, it's based on two homozygous parents and it does not have to be the same original mother, just one in which the same traits are bred true (all here sisters... not in practice of course). That still applies in the (bad example) situation of the OP, if it's an F1 hybrid, it's all heterozygous and it doesn't matter if the F1 is actually the original mother.

ix any filial back to its original mother WITH OUT and outside genetics being involved.

And that same liberty applies here too. Seems to me crossing back to an aunt is still a form of inbreeding so IX would IMHO opinion be a little more accurate than BX, in this bad example scenario.

Since you said "a good male", please see my posts at the end of the Cubing Myth sticky. Backcrossing only 1 male to any plant will lead to the offspring's gene pool being limited to largely that of the recurring parent, but once you start back crossing a population (i.e. use multiple, many, males) instead of one male to an IBL (homozygous IBL that is, which again that original parent of a real F1 hybrid should be) then you actually end up with a homozygous population. Since I posted those examples I found that the technique (inbreed backcrossing populations) was already used by or is based on "Wehrhahn and Allard (1965)". Point is, backcrossing to an homozygous IBL lead to a homozygous population if you use many males.


That all falls apart (including the predictable Mendelian ratios) if that F1 is not really an F1 hybrid which in practice is often not the case because many use F1 simply to refer to the first offspring of any cross.

Obviously we need to establish some sort of abbreviated working nomenclature to describe these recurring parentals and their "kin".

Well that's the thing isn't, it's not a hard standard every breeder adheres and fits every situation. You choose what works best for you especially in the OPs example. It depends on the context, which in turn is determined partly by the breeder. If someone were to start a breeding project crossing a purple and green genotype from an otherwise nearly homozygous IBL created decades ago, he could for his own practical purposes in that context, call that an F1, while it might actually be an F5, or an ix for some, and bx for others :)

 

[Metalman]

Good thread. Two thumbs up.