31K Vertical Flip Flop Sealed Build w/ (32) Trees in Modified UCEXXLs on 5'0 Centers

[bwash77]

ok ok...I'm here in design phase. Here is the plan:

I am charged with building a permitted dispensary grow here in the Golden State. I have two or three months to design it and I'd love it if anyone with educated opinions can chime in with help and advice.
I will return the favor with pics and notes when the build-out happens. The plan is to build one flower room and one veg room and run it for a couple cycles before starting up the second flower room on a flip flop.
This grow is a real not-for-profit meant to benefit patients. Any farmers with comments and questions, drop 'em.
So...pictures = 1000 words (none of the walls are built yet--the space is wide open and up for anything)

btw: I know there are a million details here and a million questions. My ceilings are 14'6" but there are 2' trusses up there. My idea was to have a loft for indoor a/c boxes but I have to talk to my HVAC guy about that. The initial sketch had me venting (5) 3 ton units with a 16" FKD 4600 cfm fan and a passive intake--and that's just for the flower room. The veg room specs (9) 1000w lights with (2) 2.5 ton units. I just can't put the boxes outside. hmmm. The loft upstairs will be used for the A/Cs, storage and a trim/dry room, so my first question is...

1.) Who votes for 8'0 ceilings and who votes for 9'0? My 3d sketch uses 9'0 ceilings but that obviously cuts down on the the loft height. I want to pull 2lb avg plants from the set-up--can I do it fine with 8'0?

2.) The A/C issue is the stickler. I need a good 150k in btu's in each flower room. I had the idea of putting (3) 3 tons in each room and sharing air with intake/exhaust fans but there are drawbacks (C02, night temp control...). Then there's the Excel A/C Dampers which I've never used. I'm not crazy about having (10) total 3 ton units for 2 flower rooms (not counting the 2 units for the veg rooms). Ideas?

ok. Have at it farmers. I will post my initial equipment choices here soon. Everything is up for debate--let's design the best possible room together!

In the meantime...where do you find those pretty blue and red hoses for running the hot and cold chiller water?

Oh--Happy Thanksgiving!!!:smiley_joint:

-Ben

 

[CannabisJohn]

2.) The A/C issue is the stickler. I need a good 150k in btu's in each flower room. I had the idea of putting (3) 3 tons in each room and sharing air with intake/exhaust fans but there are drawbacks (C02, night temp control...). Then there's the Excel A/C Dampers which I've never used. I'm not crazy about having (10) total 3 ton units for 2 flower rooms (not counting the 2 units for the veg rooms). Ideas?


Here are a few ideas about a/c. I am a HVAC pro. Why not install residential or commercial split systems with zone controls? They will be less expensive than the Excel products if you have a HVAC guy. Residential splits go up to 5 tons. Commercial splits go to 20 tons. The problem I see is venting all the heat from the a/c units. You would need to exhaust somewhere around 500 cfm per ton in order to keep the heat under control inside the warehouse and keep the units running when it's 90F+ outside. I would not recommend putting 30+ tons of a/c units in a warehouse. See what ur a/c guy says but IMO you will have problems. I have seen 5 ton units have problems in a warehouse. Remember heat rises so the higher the unit is the more heat there is. If you would like more help PM me.

 

[bwash77]

Here are a few ideas about a/c. I am a HVAC pro. Why not install residential or commercial split systems with zone controls? They will be less expensive than the Excel products if you have a HVAC guy. Residential splits go up to 5 tons. Commercial splits go to 20 tons. The problem I see is venting all the heat from the a/c units. You would need to exhaust somewhere around 500 cfm per ton in order to keep the heat under control inside the warehouse and keep the units running when it's 90F+ outside. I would not recommend putting 30+ tons of a/c units in a warehouse. See what ur a/c guy says but IMO you will have problems. I have seen 5 ton units have problems in a warehouse. Remember heat rises so the higher the unit is the more heat there is. If you would like more help PM me.

Thanks CJ
I had read that somewhere about the 500 cfm per ton. That's a good reference. So the most I could vent with the 16" 4600 cfm FKD would be (3) 3 ton units. Would that work on a straight 16" exhaust through the roof. Would I need a 16" intake to match that up? passive? Does anyone do this to avoid too many units outdoors?

I planned on using Ductless Splits but I have an HVAC guy so I can use anything. Suggestions on brands/types?

I have had some 5 ton ductless YMGI A/Cs hooked up before. They were dual-zone but actually stacked 2 compressors in one big box--so they were actually (2) 2.5 ton units in one. I've also hooked up the Friedrich 3 ton Splits--Single Zones.

I'm not as worried about cost as I am getting something that can cool two big rooms with (31) 1000w un-vented lights with ballasts. If the Stealth and dampers are best I'll use those--the trick will be not putting all those boxes outside. I'd like to set up a system that shares AC between the rooms I think--and keeps the outside boxes inside. If I have to then I'll go with Plan B--building something outside around the units to conceal them--though not my first or second choice. Anyone have experience keeping multiple boxes indoors?!

I appreciate the offer to PM CJ--I will definitely take you up on it--I need a few more more posts though...I think 25?

 

[bwash77]

Initial sketch for 3 side-by-side modified UCEXXLs--staggered with 60" between buckets length-wise, 42" diagonally. Has (32) trees with (31) vertical 1000w hps. Total canopy is 18' x 23' = 414sf = 75 watts per sf

& a close-up of a virtual tree :anim_44::RastaBong:

 

[bwash77]

Looks pretty slick Bwash!

Why not put the Condensers on the roof top? If its a Full Permited Build-out I dont see why not, You could camo them on the rooftop with trellis's.

Couple other things regarding your loft area. #1. You cant call it a loft, it would need a min of 7' to comply in ceiling height. All occupied spaces require this minimum.
#2.There gonna require ALL the walls and Ceiling be Structually engineered/Wet Stamped as soon as you mention Loft, Storage, or Utility area.

I would put the units on the roof, I would Show nothing on top of the ceiling.
At roughly 30 x 24 ft your gonna need a couple Glulam's or Micro Lams to span that far. Id run a 6' x 14' across the 25ft span and then hang my CJ's off of that and set the other ends on my top plates. That would qualify for "Conventional Framing" and not require a Engineer stamp. Also keep you out of plan ck and you could probably get this permit over the counter.
Once its built the "Loft Area" would be strong as fuk and could accomadate your plans for a small work area. Adding the Attic Access holes during framing is no problem.
I pull alot of Residential and Commercial permits and I know what flys and what doesnt, At least in So Cal, Bldg codes are throughout Calif so Im assuming Nor Cal Bldg depts are the same.

Your Cad drawings are sik btw. And your approach is spot on! Good Luck!

Thanks GOD (love the acronym). I have been following your builds and really appreciate the input--especially regarding permitting.

I'm considering replacing the wood trusses on the ceiling with steel to accommodate a roof deck up there--so I'll definitely need the engineer for that. Considering the investment here I'm not totally averse to it--but as you know, it does add up!

When you say a 6'x14', what is that? A glulam size? I think I will have to start thinking about disguising the condensers on the roofs. Even though it's a permitted build I still need to keep it looking copasetic on the outside. I love the over-the-counter idea but with walls going up it's just not feasible--although I'm sure there's a 'best strategy' in there somewhere.

I'm gonna go re-read some of your posts--thanks for the response. Do you have an opinion on 8' ceilings vs 9'? If 8' would work fine, I'd rather get the extra room up top. btw, what's a CJ?

Happy Thanksgiving!

-Ben :smiley_joint:

 

[greenthumbdanny]

Looks like a mighty fine plan bro.
I agree with garden of dreams<<Roof Top mount would be best:)
Excellent choice<<<>>going with LG for the AC<<<

Sounds like you have the design/set up underway>>what about the greenthumb angle>>:giggle who's manning the ship<<

good luck :passingjoint:

gtd

 

[bwash77]

GTD: 'preciate it. We've got a couple of noobs managing the ladies. Actually I have years of indoor experience but much to learn. My buddy has general plant/gardening experience. Right now we've got drippers to hugos at our other grow--plenty to learn about the UCs. That's why I wanted to do a couple runs on the first room before getting all the equipment and setting up the second.

GOD: Thanks for the tips--I'm with you about working above the rooms--don't really want to. I have a new idea to make the rooms 26' wide by 24' deep (instead of 26x30) and flipping the UC set-up sideways. That way I can fit two 24' deep flower rooms, one 12' deep x 26' reservoir/mechanical/storage room, and one 12' x 26' veg room--all on one level. Would you still go 8'0 on the ceilings in that scenario? Is there a benefit to 9'? I'll get some new sketches worked up over the weekend.
The portable room is interesting--strictly for permitting purposes I imagine. You've pretty much talked me out of the steel idea. My side idea with the design was to build something that could stay in place functioning as a normal room if the grow wanted to be re-located down the line. Maybe I have to drop that idea though...
26' x 30' "Appliance"...I like it :)
As far as the cool tubes...wondering if the glass would rob yield. Can you still get 2 per light off these monsters with vented tubes? Worth considering...

I guess my big question now has to do with A/C. Should I try to "flip" the A/C with dampers or shared air via intake/exhaust fans? 15 tons vs. 30 tons is a big difference...not to mention the 4 to 5 tons needed in the Veg room!

-BW

 

[bwash77]

Definitely gonna flip those ballasts GoD!--what do you think is the best way to share the ACs though? Should I put a few registers in both rooms--like 8 tons in each and run a couple big intake fans and big exhaust fans to both? If I do the rooms 26'x24'x8' there's about 5000 cubic feet there. I figure I'd need to move some serious air...
The downside would come in when I need to bomb a room out or run high levels of CO2 to kill critters--wondering if those snazzy Excel dampers can be hooked up to more than one 5 ton unit...may be better than the intake/exhaust option...
ok--back to the turkey :)

 

[Olyver]

I'd get a custom loadcenter to control the lighting. The flip can also run a vegetive 18/6 cycle and can segue from 18/6 to 12/12 over a one week period. Expensive shit, but looks like you've done some nice layouts. If garden temps get to high, a few lights can shut off, then turn back on 15 minutes later. Then rotate to other ballasts to turn off next time temps rise.

If you're using digital ballasts, get your loadcenter built with SSRs, not contactors. The SSRs are more expensive, but you won't hear a sound (no clicks or humming lol). Venting and heatsinks are required and a thermal fuse 104F shuts off the SSRs. Larger greenhouses with 100 or more ballasts would be better suited for SSRs. You can shut the ballasts off and on several times a day and not hear one sound. It may be even better on digital ballasts when the SSR ramps up and down as control voltage is removed.

SSRs can be used in a flip system, but again is expensive. Flip 10 or 20 lights and it's silent. A 10 ballast 20 light flip with SSRs rated for high voltage would cost about $2000, maybe more. One SSR would be required for each light. I have a couple prototypes with 4 ballasts running flips with SSRs. I will continue to flip them thousands of times and wait for a testing failure, lol.

How many pumps are you using, a PLC could control all your pumps and solenoids with float switches, solenoids, flood sensor, etc.

 

[bwash77]

GoD: My current thought (in between cooking turkey and brussel sprouts) is to use zone-controlled split systems (not ductless) 15 tons that goes to each room as needed. That way I can still keep the rooms sealed when I need to bomb or raise CO2 levels. Need to talk to some HVAC guys about dampers and details though...

Oly: I am down for the custom load center. I've contacted the guy at nowirenuts.ca but no reply. I'll try again. I love the idea of cycling lights to keep temps in range. Not sure about SSRs--have to do more research.

As for pumps, I've spec'ed three UCEs for each room so three MAG700 pumps and 3 air pumps (I guess--haven't run UCs yet). There will also be the chiller pumps--plan to go with a big 2hp Chill King for everything.

I love the idea of running everything on a PLC--just a bit out of my range of talents (I'm good at cutting wood). Are there stock models you like or would you do a DIYer?

My idea was to use magnetics for the 31k 1000hps in flower and dimmable digis for the 9 or 10 lights in the veg area so I can acclimate the girls to high lumens before they go in the big room. I've never grown big trees before so I need some learning curve time too.

Right now I'm with GoD about getting it up and running and producing. It will be mid-January until I can actually start building and want to get everything rolling and flipped within 6 to 8 weeks from there--afterwards I'm down with adding some extra automation--balance between doing it clean and correct (which is a must) and getting it up and running to get the clock started.

I wanted to take this next 6 weeks to really pick all the farmers brains to come up with a killer design--the patients will be the beneficiaries...

 

[jimmyhoffa59]

Holy shit man NICE drawings.. I am impressed with you big investment growers. I hope you get it all figured out I feel like a preschooler when it comes to even talking about something beyond a small room. I am a NorCal'y with my script so if you need anything just let me know I am retired and down to help anyone out man. I live my life by Karma..

 

[bwash77]

Holy shit man NICE drawings.. I am impressed with you big investment growers. I hope you get it all figured out I feel like a preschooler when it comes to even talking about something beyond a small room. I am a NorCal'y with my script so if you need anything just let me know I am retired and down to help anyone out man. I live my life by Karma..

Thanks bro. I am simply an employee of a dispensary but it is nice to be involved on a big grow. My biggest before this was half the size (16 1000s) and this 31 light set-up is a whole 'nother beast. Enjoyed the shots of your Purp from your last grow. If you can make it like that in AZ, you'll make it in Cali no prob!

 

[jakew215]

Thanks bro. I am simply an employee of a dispensary but it is nice to be involved on a big grow. My biggest before this was half the size (16 1000s) and this 31 light set-up is a whole 'nother beast. Enjoyed the shots of your Purp from your last grow. If you can make it like that in AZ, you'll make it in Cali no prob!

i work for a collective too, running a 20 lighter.

my boss has been on the market for a warehouse for a 90+ lighter for about two months. hoping to get that going in 2011. i say us big growers have about 4-5 years till shit hits the fan legally.

its nice being able to produce large amounts to supply needing patients.

your plans look amazing. good luck, i wish i could help, but your on another level my friend.

 

[bwash77]

i work for a collective too, running a 20 lighter.

my boss has been on the market for a warehouse for a 90+ lighter for about two months. hoping to get that going in 2011. i say us big growers have about 4-5 years till shit hits the fan legally.

its nice being able to produce large amounts to supply needing patients.

your plans look amazing. good luck, i wish i could help, but your on another level my friend.

Thanks JW--it is rewarding helping out people that really benefit from this incredible herb/medicine. Good luck with your current and future grows.

Still--I'm not sure about the other level thing--I've been growing for years but a lot of the guys on here make me feel like a noobie. We all have our different skills I like to think--I really love designing and building these places but I've finally had to come to terms with the fact that I really don't have a green thumb--so it takes a lot of effort for me to respond to the plants--a lot of the basics I still need work on.

You may be right about the legal issues. We may get a set-back with future presidential elections but the overall momentum is on our side. We are truly paving the way for many other states here in Cali. Always the innovators! :smiley_joint:

It's so great we have a forum like this with so many pros that are willing to share their time and expertise. Cannabis John is helping me with the AC details and Darryl at nowirenuts.ca is working on a good controller/flip design for us. I'm just starting to talk to the UC guys too. I'm a firm believer that we can all prosper together--this is NOT a zero-sum game--any help I get here definitely gets paid forward and lots of people will benefit from all the tips on this and other threads.

This is a busy week for me with a 16 lighter coming down--afterward I'm gonna update the plans on here and post a proposed equipment list that can be up for a good debate/discussion. Happy farming all!

-Ben

 

[Olyver]

Is there an update on this project?

 

[januaryfirst]

Running a Flip Flop is the hot ticket, Share those Ballast, Share that AC. You can always go bigger later. Let the facility pay for upgrades over time. Get what you need going so your up n running, 90 days from now you could expand.

How would you share the A.C, in flip flop room?

 

[treereek]

This was an interesting and informative thread...hate 2 see it die. Wilting leaves on a fruitful tree