60 Beans 12 Plants. Rough Start Grow.

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Planter01

Planter01

@Organikz I've got kelp, Irish moss, bladderwort as well as lobster bodies, fish skins, hog chit, shells and I mow down the winter rye and buckwheat for the heat so what's the difference if I also use magnesium sulfate which is organic as dirt. Are the fulvic, saponin acids not present in my compost recipe. Even my indoor plants regularly get a rinsed. seaweed tea and even a tea made of finished compost. I've used an aerator in the past but haven't seen enough benifit to continue. Ill tell you @Organikz I dont leave the house without a handgun. Better to have and not need. Just picked up a 1000 124g CP RN bullets to reload. Those bullets will ride on 4.6 grains of W231and CCI primers. The best defense is a good offence. @Ecompost first off I like the Gill Scott sentiment. The absence and the threat are the obvious but the planning is spot on. Peace while building up the military does sort of defeat the purpose. God DAMMIT. Those plants were NEITHER overwatered or overfed. They are in nuteless Pro-Mix and have only gotten a touch of "tipping roots" I think it's called and just the smallest taste of nitrogen. I know how to water and i let them dry out a bit simple because the roots will take in some O2. I really do appreciate the guidance from all of you and i look into anything that might be a benifit whether indoors, outdoors or in the fruit and veggie garden. It took awhile to park the Roto tiller but accumulated knowledge and advice have led me to garden using cover crops a broad fork and a thick top dressing of compost. I change my growing methods willingly for improvement. @Ecompost the Botrytis beat me to a bloody pulp last year outdoors so I'll look into the controls you mention with great interest. Someone mentioned breeders breeding for drought, starvation and pest tolerence but i dont see it. As long as were getting 8 phenos out of a 10 pack of beans the breeding is incomplete and just a name. To find a variety that gives me what I want would be a god send. Botrytis brings tears to my eyes whenever I see the first sign and I have never won the battle. The last time I got repeatable results with a variety goes all the way back to 1982/83. I'm sorry I lost the lineage. I kept it going for years before I lost it. But I digress. I appreciate the advice and it all gets taken into account. Rock On
 
Organikz

Organikz

Okay keep pouring magnesium into your soil. You know what excess magnesium does to soil right? What does milk of magnesia do? It binds up all that stuff that upsets your stomach. Same same
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

@Organikz I've got kelp, Irish moss, bladderwort as well as lobster bodies, fish skins, hog chit, shells and I mow down the winter rye and buckwheat for the heat so what's the difference if I also use magnesium sulfate which is organic as dirt. Are the fulvic, saponin acids not present in my compost recipe. Even my indoor plants regularly get a rinsed. seaweed tea and even a tea made of finished compost. I've used an aerator in the past but haven't seen enough benifit to continue. Ill tell you @Organikz I dont leave the house without a handgun. Better to have and not need. Just picked up a 1000 124g CP RN bullets to reload. Those bullets will ride on 4.6 grains of W231and CCI primers. The best defense is a good offence. @Ecompost first off I like the Gill Scott sentiment. The absence and the threat are the obvious but the planning is spot on. Peace while building up the military does sort of defeat the purpose. God DAMMIT. Those plants were NEITHER overwatered or overfed. They are in nuteless Pro-Mix and have only gotten a touch of "tipping roots" I think it's called and just the smallest taste of nitrogen. I know how to water and i let them dry out a bit simple because the roots will take in some O2. I really do appreciate the guidance from all of you and i look into anything that might be a benifit whether indoors, outdoors or in the fruit and veggie garden. It took awhile to park the Roto tiller but accumulated knowledge and advice have led me to garden using cover crops a broad fork and a thick top dressing of compost. I change my growing methods willingly for improvement. @Ecompost the Botrytis beat me to a bloody pulp last year outdoors so I'll look into the controls you mention with great interest. Someone mentioned breeders breeding for drought, starvation and pest tolerence but i dont see it. As long as were getting 8 phenos out of a 10 pack of beans the breeding is incomplete and just a name. To find a variety that gives me what I want would be a god send. Botrytis brings tears to my eyes whenever I see the first sign and I have never won the battle. The last time I got repeatable results with a variety goes all the way back to 1982/83. I'm sorry I lost the lineage. I kept it going for years before I lost it. But I digress. I appreciate the advice and it all gets taken into account. Rock On
as I said, you know you can grow, your plants know this too. sometimes nature provides conditions for grey mold to flourish, sometimes its white mold from an influx of butterflies without competition, or some other virus as a consequence of hail or heavy rain, itself caused by gram positive microbes freezing water where temperatures might otherwise prohibit.

Where are you? I find nature to be quite deliberate, even if we arent quite broad enough to understand the logic and or spot the signposts warning of trouble ahead. I also find nature can be incredibly local. I think we must also allow for the potential for BC to be pre packed in our seeds, and if we give conditions that meet favor, up it pops regardless. It would be something when we finally prove that seed manufactures are inadvertently spreading savage plant viruses in mini time bombs and charging us all heaps of dollars for the battle :-) Try not to worry, without humans and fungus, it is likely Oxygen levels would be stripping the higher atmosphere of all life like some rampant chlorine in disguise
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

and this from the electronscope. Here are some general tips for managing Botrytis. i am sure you know, but others finding this thread might not, so perhaps as good a place as any to share the data from Iñaki García

Control methods
During cultivation
It is very important to get rid of any parts of the plant that are infected with Botrytis. The infected parts should be removed and immediately put in a plastic bag. If you need to remove the whole plant, you should follow these steps: first, put a bag over the plant without touching it. Then take the plant out of the ground, including the roots. After that, remove the bag and the plant from the growing area. Before you go back to the growing area, wash your hands and change your clothes. You must never allow the infected plant or parts of the plant to come into contact with other plants, because even the slightest contact will send clouds of gray spores into the air. These spores will then land on healthy plants which may then get infected.

As for the crop, it is important that the plants have enough space and that the leaves do not touch each other. Good ventilation is essential in order to maintain slightly lower humidity around the leaves and flowers. For outdoor crops, it is advisable to cover the plants with a plastic shelter like a poly-tunnel when rain is expected. This prevents the plant from getting wet.

It is also important to be vigilant against pests such as caterpillars which can cause damage to the cuticle, which allows B. cinerea can exploit to enter the plant more easily. It's easier for the fungus to infect plants that have been damaged by chewing pests. Other insects like thrips can carry and spread Botrytis spores.

Biological control
Several micro-organisms have proven to be successful in controlling B. cinerea in a wide variety of crops. Clonostachys rosea (= Gliocladium roseum) is a fungus that is used to combat and prevent Botrytis attacks because of its ability to suppress the production of spores. C. rosea is not the only organism that fights B. cinerea. Some nematode species have also been used to control gray mold effectively.

Some strains of Trichoderma harzianum have been shown to have an antagonistic effect of the development of B. cinerea in some crops. And some bacteria of the genus Bacillus have been identified which are capable of producing substances that inhibit the growth of B. cinerea, which are useful when applied to infected flowers and fruits and the soil to prevent damping off. However, the effectiveness of these organisms depends on various factors such as environmental conditions and the developmental stage of the crop. For crops like strawberries and blueberries, bees have also been used successfully to improve the dispersion and efficacy of these antagonistic bacteria. If a certain amount of beneficial micro-organisms are placed in the beehive, they will be distributed around the crop by the bees.

Fungicides based on natural extracts
Many plant extract preparations are marketed primarily to prevent the attack and development of B. cinerea. Good results have been achieved with extracts of thyme, citrus seed, oregano, mint, garlic and pepper, to name but a few. The components of these extracts are diverse, but many act by inhibiting the germination of conidia or preventing the development of the mycelium.

Biotechnological improvements
Scientists have succeeded in developing transgenic plants in the lab which are not affected by B. cinerea by introducing a resistance gene. This resistance gene encodes a type of protein called polygalacturonase inhibitory proteins. As mentioned above, Botrytis produces enzymes that allow the fungus to infect host cells and some of these enzymes are endopolygalaturonases. Inhibiting this protein means that plants are more resistant to fungal attack.

Noble rot
Botrytis Cinerea is a very common mold, which spreads very easily, both in the vegetable drawer of your fridge and in live crops in the field. Although it is possible to combat this type of mold, it is difficult to get it under control. That’s why it has been such a difficult problem worldwide!

However, Botrytis is not always harmful. For example, when ripe grapes are infected in viticulture (grape-growing), the skin becomes more porous and more water can evaporate from the fruit. That benefits the sugar content and produces wine with a better bouquet. This is also known as ‘noble rot’. To produce some of the best ‘Botrytis wines’, the grapes are literally handpicked one by one, so that only those grapes that have been infected by the parasitic mold are selected. In some cases, then, Botrytis can be a blessing for horticulturists. And in nature, molds are certainly a blessing. We have Botrytis to thank for the fact that all the leaves which fall from the trees in the autumn get tidied up so efficiently. And that means that the circle of life can begin anew.
 
Planter01

Planter01

@Ecompost . I've tried bagging entire plants at the first sign of Botrytis but by then it's already infected other plants although it may take just a little bit of time. I'm in MA in Z6 but some maps put me in 6B. I have inoculated my property with basilicus (milky spore) as well as benificial nematodes and can't detect a benifit. Youve given me a lot to digest bud but i will. I wish the work of plant breeders could eliminate the rot. I rarely have trouble with pests with the exception of a small amount of leaf miner damage. Ive never had powdery mildew become an issue either. I also give my plants as much access to good ventilation as possible by pruning for airflow and allowing them to spread their wings without running into each other. It's Botrytis that is my nemesis. Last year we had a very wet spring which encouraged the rot and then September and October were wet which set the stage for the rot to spread faster than the local growers could bag the affected. It would be much easier to plant stains resistant to the rot but i havent be able to find anything that fits the bill. Maybe the solution is contained in your post but where would I find these beneficial bacteria and how do you propagate them.
@Organikz If your going to give advise some of which is solid you to have to 've willing to expand your horizons. It's very difficult to use to much Magnesium Sulphate in the form of Epsom Salt. Read up on it. It's organic and beneficial and no different than adding Fulvic acid and aloe Vera juice. Opinions should be supported by knowledge and all of us should be open to things they are unfamiliar with. I'll germinate in coconut water next time if you read up on Epsom. Rock on and keep growing.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

@Ecompost . I've tried bagging entire plants at the first sign of Botrytis but by then it's already infected other plants although it may take just a little bit of time. I'm in MA in Z6 but some maps put me in 6B. I have inoculated my property with basilicus (milky spore) as well as benificial nematodes and can't detect a benifit. Youve given me a lot to digest bud but i will. I wish the work of plant breeders could eliminate the rot. I rarely have trouble with pests with the exception of a small amount of leaf miner damage. Ive never had powdery mildew become an issue either. I also give my plants as much access to good ventilation as possible by pruning for airflow and allowing them to spread their wings without running into each other. It's Botrytis that is my nemesis. Last year we had a very wet spring which encouraged the rot and then September and October were wet which set the stage for the rot to spread faster than the local growers could bag the affected. It would be much easier to plant stains resistant to the rot but i havent be able to find anything that fits the bill. Maybe the solution is contained in your post but where would I find these beneficial bacteria and how do you propagate them.
@Organikz If your going to give advise some of which is solid you to have to 've willing to expand your horizons. It's very difficult to use to much Magnesium Sulphate in the form of Epsom Salt. Read up on it. It's organic and beneficial and no different than adding Fulvic acid and aloe Vera juice. Opinions should be supported by knowledge and all of us should be open to things they are unfamiliar with. I'll germinate in coconut water next time if you read up on Epsom. Rock on and keep growing.
There is no stopping these molds buddy, they are as crucial to life as they are irritating for growers. I am sorry if I gave you the impression we might do anything other than attempt to inhibit the production of the certain proteins, themselves linked to the hosting and ongoing necrotrhopism of the mold.
Today, controlling BC completely is beyond our capacity without genetic interference, and perhaps these innate biological limits are deliberate in the overall design which may be protecting us from us, say help us stop killing ourselves through our distinct and widespread lack of projection-able imagination, preventing ourselves from seeing the flap of a butterfly wing and the sure cascade of events related. perhaps they are just enough to slow us down so we think?
All we can do is boost the totals of microbes known today to help inhibit the activity of those pests. Perhaps we will develop deeper soil phenotyping models which will allow us to design programs of sacrificial lambs for example, ergo avoiding losses on target crops thereafter. I mean using a crop and its related biome to sterilize the condias present.
or to source resistant phenotypes from which we might restore heavily contaminated land.

I have found many of these pathogen types are connected via likeminded, if not like protein transcription factor secretion systems, say T4SS or T6SS. I am aware that in order for most plant pathogens to initiate an attack on a host, the relations must have a counter, or they themselves would be victims each time a brother/sister pathogen fires its weapon.
Perhaps as in the case of ecoli and others, we will find secondary secretion compounds (harpins et al), which act as nano shields to defend against self induced colony collapse through the random nature of most infection strategies, which we might understand and be able to use to our advantage to protect our crops. I think this is critical study and I wish more people were engaged in solutions to limit crop losses in an expanding population model, where we continue to destroy the soil.

I spent ages in my head trying to restrict pseudomonas syringae and one day as I thought i had hooked in to the base mechanics of it, I became aware that it is an essential part of the water cycle, so whilst I learned how to destroy it, I found that in doing so there would be less clouds in the sky, less clouds means more light, means more heat, means more climate matters which are likely to exceed the range of human biology.
So a plant pathogen which causes millions of dollars of losses every year to human economies, is also at the heart of planetary regulation, without which we could not begin to imagine economies.
 
Organikz

Organikz

@Planter01
I am assuming you know more than the late clackamas coot because he has specifically told people not to use sul-po-mag in soil for this very reason. Milk of magnesia binds up the enzymes and acids im your stomach. Its literally slowing microbial activity. My adding all of that magnesium you are preventing the chelation of calcium all right

Anyway it's more than likely contributing to your bud rot...

"When too much magnesium contributes to a deficiency in calcium, the result is limited fruit production and poor storage root production. The North Dakota Department of Agriculture states a deficiency in calcium causes blossom end rot in tomato plants and affects the growth of leaves on beat plants negatively. A potassium deficiency affects the leaves of the plants, generally attacking the lower leaves first. You can detect a deficiency by yellowing or striping in the leaves. Gradually, the lack of potassium affects the entire leaf system, disturbing plant production by limiting the movement of water and other nutrients through the plant."

You can kill whatever that shit is with saponin tea made with 1/4 tsp powdered ritha to a quart of water.

This will be the last advice if it's not taken. I got shit to do...
 
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Organikz

Organikz

no offense but @Ecompost as much as i respect him is teaching you all about some disease that you dont even need to educate yourself...how do you keep mold off of your plants...it's a combination of soil moisture, RH, and osmotic pressure within your plants (increased respiration)...that simple. if you keep maximum respiration where moisture is being pushed from inside the plant to outside the plant how does mold settle in?

VPD!!! moisture naturally moves to less moisture to make up for vapor pressure deficit.

So the RH in the environment is like 80% and your soil is only like 40%...VDP will push against your plants and hold moisture within them or even want to push moisture back into the buds...this is how mold forms...tada
 
Planter01

Planter01

Well then move on organik. I don't really care what the great Oz does but I've read enough on benifits of Epsom salts from dozens of sources so I'm comfortable with it. It's a lot easier concept to grasp than Aloe Vera and fulvic acid. Talk bout over complicating weed growing. Im good and ill continue to grow with few problems. Comparing milk of magnesia to magnesium sulphate is a stretch and it shows me that your opinions are not flexible and that your not willing to look into things you apparently know nothing of. Best of luck to you my brudda.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

no offense but @Ecompost as much as i respect him is teaching you all about some disease that you dont even need to educate yourself...how do you keep mold off of your plants...it's a combination of soil moisture, RH, and osmotic pressure within your plants (increased respiration)...that simple. if you keep maximum respiration where moisture is being pushed from inside the plant to outside the plant how does mold settle in?

VPD!!! moisture naturally moves to less moisture to make up for vapor pressure deficit.

So the RH in the environment is like 80% and your soil is only like 40%...VDP will push against your plants and hold moisture within them or even want to push moisture back into the buds...this is how mold forms...tada
so speaks a man that really never grew anything commercially
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

Well then move on organik. I don't really care what the great Oz does but I've read enough on benifits of Epsom salts from dozens of sources so I'm comfortable with it. It's a lot easier concept to grasp than Aloe Vera and fulvic acid. Talk bout over complicating weed growing. Im good and ill continue to grow with few problems. Comparing milk of magnesia to magnesium sulphate is a stretch and it shows me that your opinions are not flexible and that your not willing to look into things you apparently know nothing of. Best of luck to you my brudda.
agreed
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

@Planter01
I am assuming you know more than the late clackamas coot because he has specifically told people not to use sul-po-mag in soil for this very reason. Milk of magnesia binds up the enzymes and acids im your stomach. Its literally slowing microbial activity. My adding all of that magnesium you are preventing the chelation of calcium all right

Anyway it's more than likely contributing to your bud rot...

"When too much magnesium contributes to a deficiency in calcium, the result is limited fruit production and poor storage root production. The North Dakota Department of Agriculture states a deficiency in calcium causes blossom end rot in tomato plants and affects the growth of leaves on beat plants negatively. A potassium deficiency affects the leaves of the plants, generally attacking the lower leaves first. You can detect a deficiency by yellowing or striping in the leaves. Gradually, the lack of potassium affects the entire leaf system, disturbing plant production by limiting the movement of water and other nutrients through the plant."

You can kill whatever that shit is with saponin tea made with 1/4 tsp powdered ritha to a quart of water.

This will be the last advice if it's not taken. I got shit to do...
whats funny is that you, me and everyone is learning from this just as planter might be too, so while everyone is giving advice, try not to be all I am super knowledgeable, it really doesnt suit any one here and makes it more difficult to accept the data since its so loaded in the 1st case and off putting because of it.
The problem with the info only, and not the personality behind it is; that its based on controlling conditions which are themselves outside of the reach of most of us. eg we dont get a say in the weather in our gardens outside.

While i agree with the simple facts, most pathogens attack and disrupt calcium uptake pathways. EG, if we detect T6SS, we can be sure that calcium is not being absorbed and is being redirected and corrupted, but is this pre or post def.
In this case generally, It is likely pH in constantly damp, high organic conditions has taken a shit on Ca levels and for sure this is why the BC is getting so much traction, but I would argue you need to focus on the stability of the soil overall by learning how to measure CO2 burst rates, and again work to boost organic material and mineral inputs which we know attract those microbes that restrict pathogens, eg try adding gypsum to the top dress at a rate of 50g/m2.

pH can be helped by increased Humic acid application, dependent on the make up of your soils, you might add from 2-6kg per hectare per year. Humic acid salts are better for the system health overall than using an alternative say epsom, or indeed adding raw humates.
Humic acid salts will help to keep vital plant growth compounds and elements in a good and fit state for plants, without compromising Mg/ K / Ca or other. The very nature of the molecule makes it more valuable period. No debate, this is pure science and based totally on the ability of the molecule to act as a donor or receiver of electrons, and or its ability to boost soil fauna and maintain the entropic state of clays.

The other thing you might try is EM1 or look at self bokashi and use this as a pre treatment of compostable materials
The pH calcium thing is true in humans also where our GI tract pH is too acidic caused by over consumptions of meats and refined sugars and I suspect is the reason so many of us suffer joint and nerve pain. Carrots are an excellent source of Ca and you could look to make an FPJ using them too, one for you, one for your plants :-)
 
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Organikz

Organikz

Hey man I just want to help. If you are feeling the need to feed mag sul to your plants it not the deficiency itself. I think a 1/2 top dress of worm castings would be like giving your plants holy water.

My concern is the over water being displayed...i don't know your aeration mix but I aim for 40% for seedling. Sorry man don't mean to come on heavy but folks is trying to help. My girl gets pissed when I'm on here so I'm taking my time to see u through a healthy grow...see my side. We can help bro u just need to trust us. Fuck 12 other sources...no offense.

Worm castings is coated in cal/mag and 70 other trace minerals....you shouldn't try to balance the scale one side at a time...u know...good luck man
 
Organikz

Organikz

so speaks a man that really never grew anything commercially
So what does this have to do with growing commercially or the pictures of pathogens you're posting man? None apply here. He has a droopy as plant in a solo cup. What's the answer in all that shit? You want people to measure co2 bursts? Get real. Hes using a solo cup for a pot. I doubt he has the equipment. He wont listen to mine and he damn sure doesnt understand that if he doesnt know magnesium compacts soil. You could sell him product then right? You cant talk circles around me bro. You twist the truth to sell your product...yep...anything else? I could debunk the whole line...test it...youre no better than the kid at the hydro shop...
 
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Planter01

Planter01

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@Ecompost The complexity of life and it's necessary components in a handful of dirt from a garden is difficult to accurately conceptualize. I can tend the dirt at the most basic level with NPK , micronutrients and water how do you encourage the good molds, mycelium but keep the bad stuff out. I don't think the question is whether our friend organic has grown commercially. The question should be has he grown outdoors and has he had to face Botrytis or powdery mildew. I don't know anyone who has successfully fought off botrot once it arrives. I don't care what your spacing is or how open you prune your plants or if you have the best air flow possible but your toast once it gets here. @Organikz dude get a grip of yourself with the personal attack. If you offered advise that I thought merited following I would. So I use solo cups. I had a very rough start that has nothing to do with solo cups or fulvic acid I was just putting it out there. What equipment do you have that I don't? I'm running 900 watts of 50 watt 3590's @ 3500k being pushed by the meanwell. drivers. I have another 300 watts of Cobs to attach to heat sinks and build a frame for. I was hoping to take cuts out of my main space and grow then out under 4500 lumens. I forget what my par value came in at last time but it was good right out to the periphery. What's your set up organik that lets you scoff at solo cups and preach what you think is the gospel. Let me see your plants again so I'll know how its done. I think you know a lot but have decided to stop learning. The 12 root bound, overwatered and nutrient poisoned plants just might make it. If you had given me any advise I could have actually used in this grow i would have. Well i really do hope you have a great grow and wish you nothing but the best but relax bud. You don't demand respect, you earn it.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

View attachment 772851 View attachment 772853 View attachment 772854 @Ecompost The complexity of life and it's necessary components in a handful of dirt from a garden is difficult to accurately conceptualize. I can tend the dirt at the most basic level with NPK , micronutrients and water how do you encourage the good molds, mycelium but keep the bad stuff out. I don't think the question is whether our friend organic has grown commercially. The question should be has he grown outdoors and has he had to face Botrytis or powdery mildew. I don't know anyone who has successfully fought off botrot once it arrives. I don't care what your spacing is or how open you prune your plants or if you have the best air flow possible but your toast once it gets here. @Organikz dude get a grip of yourself with the personal attack. If you offered advise that I thought merited following I would. So I use solo cups. I had a very rough start that has nothing to do with solo cups or fulvic acid I was just putting it out there. What equipment do you have that I don't? I'm running 900 watts of 50 watt 3590's @ 3500k being pushed by the meanwell. drivers. I have another 300 watts of Cobs to attach to heat sinks and build a frame for. I was hoping to take cuts out of my main space and grow then out under 4500 lumens. I forget what my par value came in at last time but it was good right out to the periphery. What's your set up organik that lets you scoff at solo cups and preach what you think is the gospel. Let me see your plants again so I'll know how its done. I think you know a lot but have decided to stop learning. The 12 root bound, overwatered and nutrient poisoned plants just might make it. If you had given me any advise I could have actually used in this grow i would have. Well i really do hope you have a great grow and wish you nothing but the best but relax bud. You don't demand respect, you earn it.
they are recovering @-) nothing else to say :-)
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

So what does this have to do with growing commercially or the pictures of pathogens you're posting man? None apply here. He has a droopy as plant in a solo cup. What's the answer in all that shit? You want people to measure co2 bursts? Get real. Hes using a solo cup for a pot. I doubt he has the equipment. He wont listen to mine and he damn sure doesnt understand that if he doesnt know magnesium compacts soil. You could sell him product then right? You cant talk circles around me bro. You twist the truth to sell your product...yep...anything else? I could debunk the whole line...test it...youre no better than the kid at the hydro shop...
it means you cant offer advice to a man unless you have walked in his shoes, which you clearly havent! The thread owner was bright enough to understand the sentiment.
As for the rest of this childlike outburst, surely it is only embarrassing for the author. It is amazing how many people lose the plot like this when some one disagrees or points out the flaws in the delivery
 
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