600w VS. 1000w, Dual Arcs, Questions on lighting.

[MediMary]

Been following along jacks grow taking notes, didn't want to hijack the thread with this topic.


Jack I was hoping to get your opinion on something, or anyone else who would like to chime in.

I have noticed quite the debate over which is better, 1000w, or 600w bulbs.
Most of the tree growers here on the farm seem to all agree that 1000w bulbs are the best due to the penetration they produce.

Although some growers like heath swear by the 600's, and that is one point that heath and dd's dissagreed.

So these dual arcs that are producing the largest plants these last two runs, technically isnt that just a 600hps and a 400 MH in the same bulb. which it seems to me wouldnt give the same penetration as a 1000?

I did just read this article by ceestyle talking about how Lights that are equidistant from a point contribute additively.

so wouldn't two 600's placed above each other result in better penetration than one thousand?

Ambient light = 0
http://www.invalid.com/marijuana-pics/images/34058/medium/1_0x42W.jpg

1 x 42W = 6500 ftc ~ 65000 lux
http://www.invalid.com/marijuana-pics/images/34058/medium/1_1x42W.jpg


2 x 42W = 13100 ftc ~ 131000 lux
http://www.invalid.com/marijuana-pics/images/34058/medium/1_2x42W.jpg

Or am I taking shots in the dark:hunter:


thanks guys

 

[MediMary]

An Interesting Exchange.

Originally Posted by Doubleds
""MORE LIGHT BRO
Get rid of the 600"s mate, 145,000 lumens is way better than 90,000 and the 600 watt bulb only holds those lumens for 2 weeks then drops to 70,000 and can b as low as 55,000 by the end of the floer period.

I will put up some pics for you of a friends 2nd grow ever, he has not grown medicine at any time in his life. His 1st grow i made hime keep the plants smaller to see if he could handle it and he yielded about 1.5 pounds per plant. The 2nd run he yielded 3.1 pounds per plant.

i am working on a 10 pound plant system right now also, again, big base, i am using grotec's 80 gallon res which measures at 3ft x 3ft x 1.5 ft tall. Each plant will get one of these. Each mpb will have 18 x 6inch airstone, 4 x 1.5inch drain and 3 x 1/2" feed line. Each plant will get a dbl cooltube (holds 1 x 1000 watt hortilux and 1 x 600watt) on each of the 4 sides. The 600 watt on the bottom of the plant and a 1000 watt on the top hung vertically.""

In response....

Originally Posted by Heath Robinson

I would have to say your drop in lumens output on 600w systems is Wrong! I dont know where you have got those figures from but they cant be backed up by any meaningful research. I regularly test the lumen output from my bulbs and I can tell you for a fact that on a new bulb over a 9 week flowering period there is no recordable drop in lumen output.


For the information on light you have posted to be useful we would need to know which brand and model of ballasts were tested, whether the ballasts were new or old, digital or magnetic. We would need to know the brand and model of bulbs used and again whether the bulbs were new or old. Who did the testing and was it an unbiased test (meaning not one manufacturer rubbishing another etc). And whether the drop in lumens was accross the board or specific to one type of bulb or ballast.

145000 lumens from a 1000w isnt way better than 92000 lumens from a 600w! its simple maths and thats why everyone knows 600s are more efficient, its not because I say so its because its a fact.

On the grow you have posted of your friends he is using 10 x 1000w, for the same wattage he could run 16.6 x 600w which equates to more lumens and a greater coverage of light. I am not saying he should I am just illustrating that there should be no one way of growing anything.

 

[Texas Kid]

I have a room right now with (8) 600w, (2) 1k Hortilux, and (1) 1k dual arc kickin.

I have a room with only 2k worth of dual arcs..kicks ass but its a small room.

I love the dual arcs for 1ks but I have a pile of 600's as well.

Age and condition of the ballast is way important, just replace the capicitor and ignitor and watch the huge difference in output and you'll know what i mean.

Tex

 

[Bobby Smith]

Medi, I'm gonna have four 600s stacked vertically setup in a couple of days (two will be dual arcs, two "regular" HPS) and I bought a badass light meter off of eBay, so if you'd like me to take any readings or anything like that just ask.

They're all going to be running off of dimmable digital ballasts............hell, maybe I'll go set them up right now.

EDIT: just to be clear, these are 600W "generic" dual arcs, not 1000W Ushios.

 

[MediMary]

Tex thanks for the input,
Hey bobby, Yeah man I would really appreciate that,thanks.
this subject is very interesting/intriguing to me.

What I was thinking, if this makes sense at all,
All the folks out there who say you need 1000w to grow trees(doubleds for example), the fact that Jackmayoffer is having the best luck with a bulb that has a 600w and a 400w in one bulb,doesnt that prove these guys wrong?:hunter:
It shows that two bulbs together work just as well as one single bulb, so technically wouldn't TEN 600w HPS outperform SIX 1000w HPS when growing trees.

If multiple lights don't increase penetration, can someone illuminate some guidance my way on why the pictures in the first post read the way they do.

Thanks everyone.

Ill be:hunter:

 

[MediMary]

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Bobby Smith again"

 

[beezleb878]

I dont think the extra bit of light your meter shows between the two bulbs verse the single bulb readings to be an anything exciting and likely the result of other factors. Your only talking 1000 lux so I do not think it would really matter much realistically would it?

 

[Bobby Smith]

Medi, in doing some research on Coliseum grows for my little "endeavor", I read a shit load of threads by Ddoc (the inventor of the Coliseum) where he spoke about the difference between line source light and point source light.

The below is post #13 from the link at the bottom, but the whole thing is worth a read if you've got the time:

"Very little cleaning is needed, especially in a drain to waste style. Fill it up, and pump or drain it out.
Each module is 40.5 inches tall and the reservoir is 7 inches. The minimum height for a full coli with a reservoir is around 90 inches tall.
You can run one with two thousand watts, though i recommend 5 by 400, or 2x400 mh and 2x600 hps.
I don't think your giving enough consideration to the 'array' benefits or spectrum.
Here are some quotes from DDoc, the inventor.

Quote:
The reason for this even light for more lamps is as we add more lamps we get a closer approximation to a line source light which lumen intensity varies as 1/r (on a cylinder surrounding it) instead of a point source which varies as 1/(r*r). This means as you double your distance your light intensity will be one/half instead of one/quarter.
Quote:
In vertical array lighting more lamps will result in a more even, more equal light intensity to all plants. The number of lumens is not everything. Light spectrum is also important. That is why i suggest mixing metal halide and hps lamps.
Quote:
I find that as the light intensity increases above 70,000 lux on my light meter that the spectrum of the light becomes much more important and that a mix of good spectrum HPS and metal halide becomes important.
and finally you had a previous question

Quote:
really, which one of these guys designed it?
With the sensei that plantbuilder had, i wouldn't question his advice."

 

[Bobby Smith]

I dont think the extra bit of light your meter shows between the two bulbs verse the single bulb readings to be an anything exciting and likely the result of other factors. Your only talking 1000 lux so I do not think it would really matter much realistically would it?

Yes, it definitely is the result of "other factors" (light overlap).

The more light overlap you can get, the better..........that's why guys running 20-30K watts can hit such crazy numbers in g/w - their light overlap is ridiculous.

 

[MediMary]

Ok sorry guys, I am a slow learner,

So a couple questions;
Would two vertical 600w HPS one right above the other, would the two contributing lights add more penetration than a single 1000w hps? as they are both contributing aprox 90,000lumens each.

If two light sources together do not add to the penetration, does that mean the dual arcs would have lower penetration that a plain hps?
Or am I looking at the dual arcs all wrong?:hunter:

*edit
Great link bro, very interesting.

 

[MediMary]

I dont think the extra bit of light your meter shows between the two bulbs verse the single bulb readings to be an anything exciting and likely the result of other factors. Your only talking 1000 lux so I do not think it would really matter much realistically would it?

Those are actually ceestyles pics, I just used them as a reference, wouldn't HID lighting produce similar readings in contributing light sources?

thanks for your input.

 

[Bobby Smith]

What Are You Looking For?

I just set these 4 600s up an hour ago and took some different readings - is there anything in particular you'd like?

Had two dual arcs in the middle but my surge protector was acting up (which I originally attributed to those two bulbs, so I swapped them out and now have 4 HPS in there).

The meter you see is bad to the fucking ass - goes up to 200K Lux (almost 2X as bright as the summer sun), so just lemme know what you need and I'll get it for you.

 

[dagobaker]

i like the coverage with the 600 but im in the minority
i like the dimmable ballasts too......no sense in blasting light last 2 weeks when they are really just ripening
just look at the natural sun this time of year
its not as strong
very orange too

 

[MediMary]

Hey bobby,

Do you have any 1000 watters?

 

[beezleb878]

Thanks Bobby. I have no more wealth to share hehe!

 

[bakershredhead]

YO Tex you suggest to replace the capacitor and the ignitor. So would you suggest to buy a whole new ballast? Just to replace those two parts you could get a whole new ballast set up for the same price. What do you do with old cores?

 

[jimbobthe3rd]

Could i get a bit more info on the capacitors/ignitors needed for 600w ballasts? Perhaps just a quick link/ebay or some such :x? If you have a spare minute tex?

 

[Bobby Smith]

Hey bobby,

Do you have any 1000 watters?

No, sold my 1Ks to make room for this new setup - but, I might be getting some in the near future (I'll let you know).

As far as what you typed in the pic, I can't read that at all - care to share?

 

[MediMary]

left mouse Click on the picture once, and when the picture comes up in the little viewing box, in the top left hand of the picture there is a magnifying glass icon( its a circle with a +)
, and you can enlarge the pic.
almost all the larger resolution pics here on the farmer work that way.

 

[JACKMAYOFFER]

When all is said and done next run I will do half Dual arcs and half HPS with the same strain. As it goes rite now the Dual Arcs have made a huge difference Bigger and Frostier...JACK