7:10

  • Thread starter HeLLMuTT
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
monkeymun

monkeymun

755
93
this is copied off a group i belong to on facebook. good info.

For those of you that think shatter, budder, wax is strain dependent and not process, here's a little insight into organic chemistry, a science you are all implementing without realizing it. The following is from a previous conversation from another brilliant mind in another group, who I will not credit due to anynonimity...
The difference between budders, shatters and Waxes
The short answer is wax and water. The reason "budder" is what it is is due to the waxy components of cannabis being pulled by the non-polar hydrocarbon. When the solvent is blown into water or whipped while still losing butane it will complex with water and form wax hydrates, that is water complexed chemically with the wax to make the opaque matrix that contains the actual resin. This matrix can be broken by dry alcohols or heat. The described matrix also binds with hydrogen bonding to the solvents used. This is a persistent stable bond unless broken by chemical or physical means.
The act of "whipping" is used to incorporate materials into a matrix and this is exactly what "budder" is, a stabiized matrix of waxes, resins, water and solvent.
And also the act of whipping even material not purged into water will cause water to precipitate from the static humidity in the air as it is cooling as it evaporates causing condensation in the product. Indeed the only reason "budder" is opaque is the complexed water and consequently solvent. The waxes remain clear in the abscence of water creating the product called "shatter" In the abscence of water to complex with the waxes the product called shatter can be kept loose longer and exposed to vaccum more effectively to remove solvents however NO single pull extracts are going to be solvent free due to the nature of the waxes and resin themselves despite extreme vacuum or even heat as the solvents are chemically tied to the product with hydrogen bonds.
Low heat on a complexed extract gives a dry easily handled product that contains a high terpene content along with a high contaminant load. High heat and high vac produce a low terp low solvent product still full of wax.
Although not as flavorfull as the simple gums( budder and shatter) the only way to be sure you have cleaned out the primary solvent is to dewax, charcoal and heat purge at near the boiling point of the wash solvent under vac to make what is erroneously called an "absolute" this is actually relatively pure cannabinoidal resin when taken to a stiff almost glassy state. Left loose it still contains a trace of the wash solvent. If anyone is interested in more fundamental principles that you are encountering and would like to progress to the next level, let me know. Sharing this knowledge is more important than hoarding it, yet learning from it and applying it is the true payoff...

Excellent post. Anyone that makes BHO, whether for themselves or to sell, should be aware of the principles behind the process and should aim to make the product as contaminant-free as possible. Trying to medicate with BHO whilst simultaneously poisoning yourself with butane is entirely counter-productive.
 
true grit

true grit

6,269
313
well not sure if i understood all that correctly, but basically they are saying there is either humidity levels or moisture content in the trim? So it does depend on trim then. And where does the purging into water come into play? Are they trying to say a bath- cuz none of my solvent ever touches water. Low heat, slow vacuum also does not give me wax or a handleable product so I'm lost.

I don't get wax or butter or shatter- I get oil. Where does that come in? Because I can tell you it directly relates to the quality of the trim- regardless of how identical the process is under vacuum with only differences being ambient temps.

I don't fully understand the statement, so I'm not doubting it per say and obviously don't get same consistent wax Hellmutt does so if someone could clarify for this layman that would be great. thanks!
 
Ever after

Ever after

372
28
haha I used to think bho was bad then after i found a good tube i found if you even hot water bath long enough you can get stuff thats glassy pure thc even on a heat mat......... with just a heat mat after enough time the hash just peels off and stays connected as a solid similar to sugar glass for candy windows


the the person whos getting runny oil its because your exposing your hash to too high of a temp like 200F is bad if you want that shatter, only good if you want to eat it/////

or your extraction tube is too small or your having to crush your plant material up too much, plant material being too dry has never lowered quality on oil only made it more potent and higher yields maybe less smell... only it was way stronger. i use 400g tubes 1.5"wide :/ alot different than many people though i always get awesome stuff unless i use a grinder. then its a gamble for quality for my system as everyones is different its hard to say what your problem is. hope this helps so your getting plant material to pass through so its getting runny or! your strain has some chemical in high ammounts that is not thc! this is unlikely though as most other pure cannabinoids are solids at room temp sorry your unable to get something you can touch
 
  • Like
Reactions: mal
true grit

true grit

6,269
313
Actually no, my process never exceeds 100-105F and I get very high cannabinoid content. I do NOT have a problem with my oil being oil. Thats my question- why does everyone want wax? 90% of the time I get wax it is inferior to the oil produced in potency, terpene content, etc. Yield is usually heavier with oily bho as well.
I would like to get tested to prove such, but I will stand by my product having NO chemical in it either due to stringent vacuum purging. I don't need to toot my horn about my oil but its on point. I personally am not usually impressed with the glass/shatter oil, and often not with most waxy ones. Generally i prefer the peanut butter/tacky/oil varieties when folks wanna whip em out.

Now on the breaking down of material, i will try to break it down less on next runs and see if that changes up the oil vs. wax but again- myself and patients generally prefer the oil. Like i stated earlier- the better material i use (ie- buds/popcorn not trim) the heavier oil it comes out. Snowdog/chemdawgs regardless of what we use does seem to peanut butter/wax up almost faster/immediately. Stardawg stays mostly oil if buds, peanut butter is popcorn/trim. OG's are usually oil if mostly buds, but does wax after time if trim. Most of the other buds/trim that dont meet my standards to stick around the garden tend to wax up. Hence me asking-so where does density of buds, trichome, contaminate from material, etc come in to play? And i'm not sure if the term i use (oxidation) is appropriate but I think all of those factors come into play when exposed to air (o2) and generally slows or hastens the waxiness of the oil. Another thing I have noticed is that organic soil vs. organic coco, i tend to get different consistency/yield as well- with coco yielding less, and soil waxing up faster.

Coming from making full melt/dome bubble prior, i do know that certain strains not only produce heavier/denser trichome but also have different consistency when using trim vs. bud.

I am def no scientist, but I am very on point in procedure and keeping note of differences in end product as result of inputs/temps/etc. These are just things I've noticed that kinda differ with what some have said.
 
ogplatinum

ogplatinum

1,188
63
Forgot to stop in ON 710 and say what up! Dont have a pic of the most recent batch, cam was dead. Do have a picture of this.....Dabbin' in style..;)
IMG 5372
 
ogplatinum

ogplatinum

1,188
63
Nice glass OGP, is that a Contrabasso? Here is some BHO from the trim on my most recent run. Not strain specific. 10 grams of buddery waxy face melting dankness.

outwest


Why yes it is! Looks like someone knows their high end glass! :)
 
The Mulls

The Mulls

159
63
awesUm honey pics!! ... nomnom ... nummy stuff ... cant wait till the next chopchop to make up more honey gooey goodness to join in the share toooo ... learnin heaps round your house bout differnt ways to treat the oil to create the different styles ... all we made is shatter glassy goodness thus far ... . didnt know there was any other ... sure have much schoolin to do .. in alL areas of the sticky ladies ... cheers to mY eyes n mind openin uP ... . . Mrs Mull :p
 
  • Like
Reactions: mal
Glab120

Glab120

127
43
hey oil heads whats your pefered consitency for dabbing. im personaly stuck on making and dabbing honeycomb wax that is easy to shape and very stabel at room temps. im still not sure how to make that super dry looking honeycomb but i would like to experiment with some soon. any advice on that would be helpfull.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mal
Glab120

Glab120

127
43
some randoom wax pics ive made recently. all off these are green crack runs from my last harvest. with my one gallon vac pot.
 
IMG 0462
IMG 0463
IMG 0467
IMG 0468
Ever after

Ever after

372
28
AW MAN i grew lots and lots of the white strains in soil and lots and lots of the white strains in ebb n flow coco recirculate did 200 grams of the white from soil all buds trimmed`

all the fan leafs off and most the the sugar leaf off looked like some dank bud so i put it in a 200gram tube and it doesnt seem like i even got 20 grams of oil back at the least i mean 10% thc.

i didnt pack it that tight though i havent checked the quality. the strange part is the bud from the hydro system buds have like 2x the amount of resin, that the soil buds grown just VEGANIC as in BIO CANNA line only including bio boost....... the buds from the bio canna are smaller and maybe even denser than the hydro coco buds. the reason i am posting this is because i got more oil from all the trim from the hydro plants than i did from crushing up about 200grams of good veganic herb almost identical to the hydro bud from the same mothers and same pheno's

is this true do hydro plants yield more resin than soil plants or is it just the use of my veganic BIO CANNA line being used................. I thought bio canna is why lots of people win hightimes so why could trim out do 200grams of the white grow veganicly. maybe i should have used bubble bags. do you get a bigger yield in grams compaired to bho?

oh yeah and the differeance in lighting is the bud with lesser resin was being lit by a block buster while the hydro system was lit by a XXL................ i over watered my hydro plants so i was thinking thats why the resin content is higher on the hhydro herb
 
  • Like
Reactions: mal
HeLLMuTT

HeLLMuTT

Thinks of Stinks
Supporter
948
143
Great looking stuff OG Plat and company! ;)

Hey everyone, hope all you dabbers are doing well and are highly medicated...
So ok, where to start. First off I gotta say sorry to everyone that may have drooled on themselves in my long absence. My computer broke down on me and ive simply been off line for months now; havent even made a batch in about the same time. Eitherway I should have that fixed sometime soon. Now my scandisk usb adapter wont work at the library; Where im sitting now. heh I have pics to post but they wont upload atm. Again I hope everyone is doing well.

So I have some questions I'd be happy to anwser. But I'll have to compose those anwsers either tomorrow or Thurs. I don't have the time today... My bad on that.

Edit: Dam time limits on public comps!!! got a little extension. lol

Till then I'll pose a question for everyone about the debate as to "Whip or not to whip" and vac purging your oil in regards solely to the "Damaging terps" issue... That question would be what would damage a plants terps more; useing a paper clip or small tool to "Whip" oil OR placing the terps under a full vacuum of space? It's the first question I asked myself when vac purging became popular and people started stating for folks not to whip... As far as Im concerned the vacuum is much more violent yet dosent seem to offset the final product. Ive done both methods; The Vac method I have only done a handful of times in comparison to my trusted slow and low method. Slow and low being; Letting the oil slowly purge itself of butane over a low heat(110-130 degrees). Whipping imho seems to inhance or release the smells and flavors of the BHO even when you purged the butane with the vac. One thing is certain, the vac seriously decreases purge time. Im a patient person in general so it dosent matter to me, yet I like the slow and low method.

I'll be back soon to go over each step, fill in any gaps and discuss other issues. Heh if you guys can believe it I took the whole month of july off from all consumption of thc and have been doing crossfit like crazy... Lord my tolerace went to shit...Like no tolerance at all, which is not a bad thing at all when I get stuck as all HeLL off one dab or two bong rips. No complaints at all lol!

All of you guys take care.
 
true grit

true grit

6,269
313
Good to see ya back around Hellmutt! and LOL- i would be fucked if I took a month off from smoking/consuming! ha. A good week and im like damn, i fell off that quick?

On the whipping- i never notice a difference in same trim whipped or not, just depends on how quickly it oxidizes...

and as a test (didn't know you don't vac purge hellmutt), let some oil set out for a 4-5 days in pan with increased surface area and was able to def see a difference in "oxidation" rates and waxiness.

That being said- i busted out some 5-6month old o. diesel and stardawg oil that has been stirred, fucked with, changed jars, etc....and guess what? still straight oil for dabs, at best the diesel got somewhat peanut buttery. So again, I'll stick with trim quality and oxidation rates.
 
Top Bottom