A Comparison of HID Reflectors.

konakings · Dec 30, 2012

Click80

If you begin to buy in bulk you can get Hortilux HPS 1000 for around $70. Ushios are the same price. They are the exact same bulb, parts sourced from the same factories, except one is made in Japan and one is made in Germany. With prices like those , I believe it is worth it to go for it.

click80 · Dec 30, 2012

Thank you. The whole bulb thing can be contentious, with some people swearing that the quality of brands such as you mentioned are better, with others stating comparable results with Plantmax. I think I will do a half and half replacement and just see for myself. Personally I like Hortilux and Ushio. I did have four Digilux and three out of four burnt out at about 3500 hours. I also am taking into consideration some tests that I have read that showed the decline of PAR energy after about 30% of bulb life. Not tremendous but a definite slow steady decline. But then again to really evaluate a bulb out put you need to measure in the manner that reefkeepers do, which is actual photons in the wavelength of photosynthesis. I think it is called PPFD (photosynthetic Photon Flux Density) which measures the amount of actual photons (density) in the photosynthetic range that reach the plant, and I would imagine a meter like that to be very expensive. I can afford to buy about 4 plantmax or ultrasun and give them a side by side. Thank you very much for your input.

konakings · Dec 31, 2012

350 / 12 = 291 Days. That is almost a year. Most guys I know in NorCal switch out after six months. Because the loss of lumens is not worth it for them. But, they will grow just fine for a year or more.

Yes some people will claim piss in their reservoir and a specific audio music helps their plants grow. Actually, my old hippie guru swore by it, and he grew the diggity. BUT, in general I think that people just need to find what works for them, which is sometimes very specific. With that being said, Im still trying to copy JackMayOffer. After looking at his rooms and thinking I was doing it right, I feel schooled, again, and will be switching my air cooled over to Adjust a wings.

With that being said, I hear you can get comparable results, but most people swear by the Horti or Ushio. With the prices being around the same once you hit bulk I think it makes the point moot. I mean I just fire up the PlantMax and the Hortilux and I can tell the difference. Plus my simple lumen meter shows a 10% difference. 10% is a big deal extrapolated out.

click80 · Jan 1, 2013

The Plantmax bulbs I am talking about are only $35. That's an average between the 600s and 1000s. I found the Ultrasuns for about the same. There are some others but the suppliers had some bad reviews as far as shipping problems.

I just scored a few more lights so I am running 10 total now. So I am going to do a half and half run.

I hate this whole bulb thing. I did a lot of reading up on it at one time and the manufacturers throw nonsensical terminology out there to basically see who can out bullshit the other. I do know that there is only one real way to measure true light output (for growing) and that is the way PPFD. Seamaiden could explain it way better than me, she was the one that first pointed it out to me. Anyway, that being said, my only other comfortable way of seeing differences is with my own two eyes. At a 35 dollar per bulb difference I can afford to do a run with half cheapie Plantmax and the other half Hortilux (probably) and see what's what.

Papa, I would love to hear what your experiences have been with bulbs and reflectors, or point out a good thread on it.

Maybe this is a stupid question but does anyone use cooltubes with adjust a wings? Or is it not possible. Sorry I have had the same fixtures for 3 years now and my local store is so small that I never have even looked at them.

El Cerebro · Jan 1, 2013

looking forward to seeing your test results. i've done a bunch of research on this subject too and fwiw found some bad info on ultrasun, landed on plantmax as the goto cheap bulb (it's also high the list from Whazzup's ulbricht comparisons). others might be equal or even better, but based on the data we have..

imo plantmax vs ushio/horti is precisely the test to do. thanks.

konakings · Jan 2, 2013

Clcik80 PlantMax bulbs may be cheaper. But how much is your harvest worth? Save a penny to lose a dollar? I dont know, what I do know is that ANY increase of weight or quality would surely pay the extra $35 / bulb premium.

10 lights... 2 honkers per light... Extra $350 for the good bulbs, $175 if changed every two harvests... An extra $175 per run doesn't seem excessive for using the good.

I 100% agree with El Cerebro that the test to see is ushio/horti vs plantmax. BUT, until that time I am going to pay the extra $35 (or so) a bulb and enjoy the topnotch results I and others swear by. I and my lumen meter see a slight difference in the operating lumens between a plantmax and a horti. 10% is a big number extrapolated out.

Haha cool tubes with adjust a wings? The whole point of an adjust a wing is no blockage of light from glass. But then again there are many paths to the Mt. top.

click80 · Jan 2, 2013

Here is a chart I found. These people did a test with a par/quanta/pfd (?) meter. Now Plantmax wasn't tested, but Ushio, EYE, Badass and some others were tested and well, it's worth a look. I am going ahead with the Maxlume and the money I am saving I am going to buy a quantum meter. I found a brand that Utah State recommends for only $139.00. You hook it up to a multimeter and convert the milliamps to get the corresponing PPFD reading.

Oh, this comparison did have one surprise. C.A.P. Maxlume did pretty respectable for a $30 bulb. There is a link to the chart below. Very simple, they used a meter that actually measured PFD, which is what matters to a plant, and they put out a simple chart. Fwiw I think it shows a great deal, especially in that pebble reflectors to do give consistent reflections as much as they claim to.

Sorry about my ignorance with the adjust a wings. I have never had any problem with being satisfied with my yields so I don't really stress on the tweaking every last bit out of things. I do fine with my old three year old stuff.

Since I have good cooling and CO2, I am going to get the Maxlume or the Plantmax and take my savings and buy my own meter, not a lux, or lumen, but a real meter, so I can judge for myself from now on. I appreciate the advice though, don't think I didn't consider your input.

Link

konakings · Jan 2, 2013

Cool Chart Click80. That is actually pretty sweet. It reconfirms my anecdotal claim that I thought it was about 10% brighter and corresponds to my lumen meter which says about the same. Cool to see that on a par meter Hortiluxs score almost a full 20% more. It solidifies my already rock solid belief that there is no other bulb in comparison to the Hortilux when simply asking which is the "best" for the plant.

Its all good. We all pick our own paths and in the end we find the one that is right for us. For my money though Hortis for the win!

click80 · Jan 2, 2013

Shoot I am running out of time. This link Here is a good one we found this morning when we were consideiring the enhanced spectrum and dual arc tubes, this showed chlorophyll reduction when mixing MH with HPS, but it was on lettuce, nonetheless interesting I thought, especially considering the popularity of "enhanced spectrum. Kind of gives credence to the oldtimers just using HPS from beginning to end, but the one I really wanted to find I can't, I will tonight or tomorrow when I have time, but there was another one that NASA did that was my other decision maker in just getting my own testing equipment, they did a lumen declination test, Hortilux and Sylvania and Agrosun (I think) both had the most significant lumen decline after 800 hours. Ushio had the best, after the first 100 hours it was relatively flat until 5 or 6000 hours I think it was. That's why I just want to get my own meter and kind of keep up with my own research. The other takeaway from that I really found interesting is that they basically said pebbled finishes suck, well I think they said their guess was the irregularities of the readings were from the pebbled finishes, that they suck was my words...lol. I would love to have seen them test other reflectors to see if that was the cause.

El Cerebro · Jan 2, 2013

i don't like the test at Click's link, it was done with one of the vertical OG hoods, which throw a very different intensity/pattern than almost everything else on the market. also the mfg states (very accurately imo) that 24" is way to close for use with those hoods (pattern is a severely tightened square unless you mount them considerably higher - tall ceilings only). not saying it's a bad hood design, just needs to be applied differently than they did (similar problem with comparisons on the Grener's test).

also, performance with vertical hoods can vary based on lamp construction specs. the arc tube placement relative to the mogul socket opening also has a significant effect on footprint readings (hence the need to use mogul extenders in these hoods with some lamp shapes).

click80 · Jan 3, 2013

Thanks EC. You are right. I ASSumed it was just a regular horizontal bulb placement reflector. I skimmed. My bad for real.

Anyway, the same site had another test between a Raptor and the OG Vertical. El Cerebro my man, you were right on the money. Here is the link. They found that if within a tight footprint the OG's claims were correct but outside that footprint the Raptor was better. My take anyway. See what the actual scientific process reveals? I guess I am just the type of person that wants proof of concept. Especially when spending the money we do on this stuff.

Either way, I went ahead and ordered 8 Plantmax and 8 Maxlumes. 6x600s of each and 4x1000s. I also ordered my Apogee meter. I am going to have fun with this. I also ordered extra sensors, which will come later as they are on backorder, which will measure certain regions within the PAR. This is so that LED's can be accurately evaluated.

I am like really stoked about getting this meter.

One thing that I meant to throw in yesterday is that as far as fluoro's go you can go to 1000bulbs.com and get the Sylvania F54T5/865HO (6500K) at $177 for a case of 40 and I know from my own two peepers to be better bulbs than the $17 dollar apiece Hydrofarms. Has anyone else done this? The hydrostore people always want to push the 5000k and I don't like them for clones or moms. But that's off topic again.

El Cerebro · Jan 3, 2013

so are you going to compare both the plantmax and maxlume to one of the higher-end lamps?

the main things i've been curious about are:
1) effects of the $$ 'enhanced' hps vs mixing in some mh (hps yield vs mh quality)
2)efficiency of course (ppfd and maintenance duration)

i have been using Whazzups ulbricht chart for a baseline comparison, with the DE lamps as current gold-standard and ushio/horti/plantmax. this begs the question of what do i lose/gain from going with plantmax re spectrums and power maintenance vs the brands who claim fancier tech.

with the SE lamps, replacement frequency is a major factor, so i'm wondering if more frequent re-lamping with plantmax could out-perform the other choices for a net gain. i'm actually not that concerned about the individual lamp cost, for reasons others have pointed out above..

El Cerebro · Jan 3, 2013

btw, a friend let me borrow his OG hood for a while, i found anything less than 3ft from canopy was way overkill in my situation. i ended up using it hung much higher with nice results, about a 6x6' footprint in my previous veg room. we tested it with one of their "true blue" 1k halides, which seemed like a nice lamp, very blue, and made my girls much stinkier in veg..

click80 · Jan 3, 2013

I am going to have get a game plan in place so that will take some research, have to get accustomed to the sensors, but basically right now I can compare Plantmax, Maxlume and will be getting two Ushio HPS and Two Hortilux ESpectrum and I have a few people I know that just got new bulbs that I can use for a control check. I have to think on this a bit. The main thing I am interested in at the moment is what the Plantmax and Maxlume output is. I have access to a lumen meter so I can take both measurements of total lumens plus the PPD measurements. That is what the plan is forming up for at the monent.

click80 · Jan 3, 2013

Yes that OG hood was interesting. One of my first thoughts was that it sort of looked like a modified Parabolic design in a way. Now this was just what I could see from a Youtube video.

El Cerebro · Jan 4, 2013

click80 said:
Yes that OG hood was interesting. One of my first thoughts was that it sort of looked like a modified Parabolic design in a way. Now this was just what I could see from a Youtube video.

been watching this for a while too: http://cycloptics.com

not much action on actual product though, and with their focus on smaller wattage cmh, hasn't garnered much atttention from our market..

rick ratlin · Jan 5, 2013

click80 said:
Maybe this is a stupid question but does anyone use cooltubes with adjust a wings?

yes

I might add that I'm fully aware of lumen loss through the glass, but I don't grow trees, just shorties in a perpetual set-up. This photo is a 600 HPS with a socket extender to put the bulb in the middle of the aaw. A 1k set-up gives me coverage over (2) 3' OD flood trays. I trade off the lumen loss with the ability to place the bulb a foot away or closer.

labud · Jan 17, 2013

I like those xxxl reflectors

PwnanObrien · Apr 28, 2013

rick ratlin said:
yesView attachment 280341

I might add that I'm fully aware of lumen loss through the glass, but I don't grow trees, just shorties in a perpetual set-up. This photo is a 600 HPS with a socket extender to put the bulb in the middle of the aaw. A 1k set-up gives me coverage over (2) 3' OD flood trays. I trade off the lumen loss with the ability to place the bulb a foot away or closer.

Lumen loss.. Whats usually failed to be mentioned is lumen loss due to rapid deterioration from non-cooled suspended bulbs, not to mention heightened overhead from having to replace said bulbs more often. I get two grows out of my Ushios in cool tubes. When I ran stand alone bulbs I had to replace every harvest. Further, the cool tube design is far superior to a rectangular design in regards to cooling efficiency. If you run one of those massive big daddy 3' reflectors your heat isn't being evacuated nearly as efficiently as a straight shot through a tube. The same rule applies to water flow.

Pancho-N-Lefty · Apr 28, 2013

click80 said:
Yes that OG hood was interesting. One of my first thoughts was that it sort of looked like a modified Parabolic design in a way. Now this was just what I could see from a Youtube video.

If you have good head space for setting your lamps higher and you are in a place where amps is of no concern so that you can have as many lamps as you want then this is a great light for concentration ( or if you have a tent like a 4x8 with 2 of these could rock if you aren't growing trees in the tent). However, if you do not fit in this category (as most do not) you wont be to happy with them.
Their beam pattern is very tight so stacking them together is recommended and their penetration is very high as well. There just isn't much throw and the 3' x 3' is about maximum effective coverage.
My recommendation: for air-cooled hoods- Raptor, non cooled- Gavita Pro, full on production - Vert bulbs.

A Comparison of HID Reflectors.

A Comparison of HID Reflectors.

konakings

click80

konakings

click80

El Cerebro

konakings

click80

konakings

click80

El Cerebro

click80

El Cerebro

El Cerebro

click80

click80

El Cerebro

rick ratlin

Perpetual Farmer

labud

PwnanObrien

Pancho-N-Lefty

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