I wanted to try out lumperdawgz recipe, but I'm confused since he doesn't quantify the amount of base mix he uses. Is the recipe ratio based upon one 3.8cf bail of sunshine or multiple?

outwest said:

It's super hot the roots organic has enough nutes to let the roots grow and get established. By the time they hit the super soil, they are ready for the nute boost.

I find the plants hit that layer, kind of jolt for a second, then really take off. Apparently planting directly in super soil will fry the plants.

outwest

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I realize this is an older thread but I spotted this and thought of the results several different research studies reached recently concerning Quorum sensing. It has been known for some time that it appeared as though there were signals between microbes and roots, some of these had been identified but what had not was the what seemed like similar signaling between different soil microbes located in separate areas near the root ball.
With the gene sequencing that is currently being done and the ability for computers to run large amounts of data and find similar gene sequences they have recently identified gene sequences that regulate Quorum sensing, and that these are conserved genes (which to my understanding are genes that originated way up the evolutionary ladder and have been passed on to different kingdoms. Plus they can now show how many soil microorganisms can interact with those several feet away and, for example, detect richer soil and transfer bacteria near a plant to release strigalactones (I think I spelled that right) which signal the plant grow in the direction of richer soil. This action is not new. Researchers have wondered how a root can grow laterally directly to soil of better quality or moisture. Also, Does not matter if the soil the roots (and bacteria near or on roots) are in is already good soil the signaling works as a matter of degree not condition. The research has been fairly popular for the last few months. Pot tests with different plants showed preference for reaching to the more nutrient dense soil areas. One study was focusing on strigalactones which effect better myco inoculation and growth and found that this Quorum sensing was related also to the same sequence of genes.

That shit fascinates me.

My mind is blown. ^^^

Seamaiden said:

My mind is blown. ^^^

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Yeah my grammar usually kills brain cells. :)

Here are two papers. Probably only worth reading for people that have time to waste on more information of the genetic sharing across biological kingdoms.

First one showing discovery of the shared factor allowing inoculation of AMF and nodule formation in legumes is one and the same. The second paper describes more information of the same but includes information that shows the same factor exists in humans specifically "While plant MMPs are poorly documented, they are well characterized in animals as playing a key role in a number of normal and pathological processes involving the remodeling of the extracellular matrix. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC166861/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1914174/


Here is one that describes the influence of strigolactone, the parasitic plant Striga, and AMF inoculation. That was the first one I found but there are many more and also if you Google really good you can find the purchasable synthetic strigolactone that will dramatically increase Myco inoculation (in a lot of plant species), and if you really try hard you can find two separate substances that not only act on the same pathway signaling but also complement each other and induce a SAR response that will enable a cannabis plant that at one month of veg has the growth and a remarkable stem base. I have found, by accident, another substance, very well known, that appears to potentiate the effects of the other two when all three are used on cannabis. I think anyway. I need to reproduce it a few more times since that the way things work. Anyway, these substances are well known now and yet I cannot find anyone that has put all three together. I did. Used it twice now. One is a bit pricey but is used in micrograms.

I had a death in the family and my life has been interrupted for some time but I am going to be back on it and if it is indeed reproducible I am not calling Big Mike or GH (whoever) for money, but I will tell everyone on the Farm as a payback for all the help I have received on here since I was a newb.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1256006/

click80 said:

I had a death in the family and my life has been interrupted for some time but I am going to be back on it and if it is indeed reproducible I am not calling Big Mike or GH (whoever) for money, but I will tell everyone on the Farm as a payback for all the help I have received on here since I was a newb.

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You have my deepest condolences and most heartfelt sympathy, truly.

@click80 My condolences, may your memories give you peace and comfort.

Thank you. Truly. I'm good. I'm very glad to be back on my work full time again. I wasn't very happy being back home with the pollution, chemical plants, people with attitudes....etc.

Thanks again.

cannakis said:

Basically you all are just following what someone else says and thinking oh npk and ph doesn't matter, but that is because they already figured it out for you.!

If you want to Really Grow "organic" and create your Own soil, then you NEED To Learn and Know Nutrient Values and the pH of Products. this page will help tremendously with that, from Peaceful Valley Farm Supply gives all the Main Factors of each product. enjoy

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Contradict much? :)

jpzz said:

Boy did I ever fail when I used Promix. My friend uses it and his plants come out fantastic. I try the same method and nothing but slow growth and yellow leaves. Finally I gave up on it after 3 attempts. I have no idea what I was doing wrong. The only difference was he used his local water source and I used mine but that's enough of a difference to make a difference.

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I have heard the same thing. I know plenty of people that love Sunshine, I do, and others have had nothing but bad luck. Strange.

outwest said:

It's super hot the roots organic has enough nutes to let the roots grow and get established. By the time they hit the super soil, they are ready for the nute boost.

I find the plants hit that layer, kind of jolt for a second, then really take off. Apparently planting directly in super soil will fry the plants.

outwest

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See that's the part I don't get. I get roots coming out the bottom of 3-5-7-10 gallon smart pots no matter how thick a bottom layer I put. I have tried it different ways. I have used differing bottom layer thickness. Doesn't matter. So I just mix mine homogenous. I have healthy plants, I do acclimate them to a higher, for me, nutrient solution. About 1.4 EC at the highest. So that's only 700 ppm. I don't know, am I missing something?

I guess within 10 days of transplanting I have a uniform amount of roots coming out the bottom of my smartpots. It's not any explosion, but I mean that it's not just a random root here and there, they are popping through all over the bottom. At least one root every cubic inch, usually more.

slausongardens said:

yeah i dont think ill ever buy a soil from fox farm again. too many bad experiences. although i still use their all purpose peace of mind fertilizer product with good results.. but i dont even like supporting them, might change that one out too hahaa.

thats why i dont like moonshine mans soil mix. looks like he was paid by fox farm to make that soil mix and promote it. one of the main reasons of making your own soil is to save money and his soil mix costs over $100. its actually not even really a soil mix. its just combining different soils haha. u can start from scratch with peat moss, ewc, compost, perlite and some amendments for about $6 a cubic foot. and i would think it would be better then anything fox farm has.

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I have never screwed around with Coco besides what comes in the Sunshine mixes and they have good sources. I have a friend doing a big outdoor and he is using Coco. I knew that there are quality differences and I found a paper, research paper, that showed a really big difference in Coco from different geographical sources. They also tested companies mixes that used coco from different sources and the correlation followed. I know that Premier and Canna were good. I forgot the other ones. If someone wants I will find it again, I hope, and post a link.

Anyone else no about this?

Oh also does anyone know about this Batch64 company in Colorado? They have a couple mixes. I have some and was thinking about adding it in to my mix because it has biochar and enough coco to boost my K a bit. I heard plenty of people saying that their stuff is great, but it's never from someone that has used it.

I use the Batch 64 Pioneer Blend. It is great stuff, but doesn't hold enough moisture by itself for my purposes. I like to feed/water every 2-3 days, so I have been mixing it 50/50 with Coco Loco or VermiSoil/Fire. I love the bio-char AND the rice hulls, which I have not been able to source by themselves in CO.
When I ran it by itself it was definitely holding Ca from the plants, and I experienced deficiencies from time to time. I fixed that by adding Elemental from Roots Organics or some extra oyster shell to compensate.

I used their Moonshine blend also; it too needs more Ca, but not as much. The 50/50 Moonshine/Pioneer blend kicked ass, but I had to water every day and twice a day toward the end. That issue was compounded by having large plants in smaller pots, of course.

Thank you. I think I can find some Biochar. I will bookmark this and hit you up if I find that they are making it at the correct temperature and pyrolysis method. I spent a little time on their site and it looked good, but I am going to call and make sure the process hasn't changed. It's very important with Biochar. The stuff is useless outside a certain production specs.

You know, I quit using calmag for the most part. I add in a little hydrated lime to my water, and then water on my water days (I use RO), and on other days I add in MagSulfate. I never use those forms of Calium and Magnesium together. I think the plant prefers to uptake ++cations in little doses.

Thanks again.

I have found that throwing cal-mag at deficiencies almost NEVER works. I pre-amend coco as a buffer; oyster shell rocks!
Most deficiencies are caused from antagonism, not a lack of minerals/organics in the soil. It's almost always excess potassium in my experience, or poor watering technique. People LOVE their high-salt bloom boosters...

Yes, I cannot understand the logic of bloom boosters except in high performance, expertly maintained RWDC or something similar and even then Desert Squirrel said he never found any benefit.

@ Altitude Farmer or anyone that has an opinion......I would like your take on a couple things, if you have the time. I gotta do this fast so I hope it makes sense.

Number one, do you think I should use Bone Meal? I never have and get great yields compared to other people I know. I now understand that bone meal does not affect Myco activity, new studies say, and does have a positive effect on phosphate solubilizing microbial population. About half of the SuperSoil ratio.

The next big one is this: I want to go to a lighter mix by adding in the Pioneer so I can get higher oxygen content and I also want to substitute a small amount of Perlite with Vermiculite which will help offset the airier mix. I'll explain everything I do now below.

For my Bloom mix: By ratio I mean how much I cut the FFOF. Currently it's 2:1. 2 parts FFOF to 1 part Sunshine. For the base.
I currently use 2 parts FFOF to 1 part Sunshine Advanced plus the amendments I have listed further down. I do it in one tote batches. I do not let it cook like SSoil. I let it gently come to life about two weeks before I am to use it by adding some compost tea and I brew my own beneficial bacteria from an Bokashi type deal.

So it's 14 half gallons of FFOF and 7 half gallons of Sunshine Advance. So it's ten gallons dry measurement about. I then add in about 1 gallon EWC and about a half gallon of Ancient Forest. This is about 15% EWC to the FFOF and a little over 10% compost to the Sunshine, or close enough :) I then add Perlite of the same amounts of both the EWC and Ancient forest, so it's basically a 1:1 ration of the EWC and A. Forest to Perlite, and I use both coarse and fine Perlite. I also add in these amendments: for each batch I add in 1/4 cup Dolomite (powdered), 1 cup Diatomaceous Earth (silicone and it's supposed to improve CEC, Azomite, and Blood Meal about 1 cup each. I then usually add in a quart or two more perlite. I transplant directly into it and have never had any transition problems at transplant and flip, never any deficiencies. I use a liquid cold processed fish fertilizer called Organic Gem (it's made from the complete fish, they supply fish bones to the pharmaceutical industry to make glucosamine/chondroitin products), it's loaded with enzymes and is 3-3-0. Great stuff. I also use compost teas regularly almost every watering, I use Insect Frass (once or twice during bloom), and I constantly top dress with sparse amounts worm castings and compost, plus some other random stuff like Flora Blend, Liquid Kelp, EJ catalyst, Bokashi juice (bennies) a few times. It depends on the strain.

I get good results, ~7-9 lbs from 20 plants (vegged ~ 4 weeks) under 2 1000s and 4 600s.

But, I have reservations that it's too thick (because I don't see the same root health as during veg), even though it's okay, it seems that at about 5 weeks I notice that root turnover slows down noticeably.

More importantly I also found that my other grow place that I share with a friend, using the exact same clones, they got noticeably more frost than mine did. Everything except the mix is the same as far as climate, lights, temps.....ect. The only real dif is the mix she prefers is more airy, she prefers straight up Peat, worm castings and compost, and Perlite. 1:1:1 ratio. We use the same type teas, fish fertilizer, top dressing every week. At chop time they were noticeably frostier. I can't think of anything that would make that difference except the higher oxygen content which is a healthier root zone. At the end, which is about the time my roots slow down, is when stacking and swelling starts on this strain and hers had an exceptional coating of frost. Although mine were still fine, hers were prettier.

The first time I grew in soil I used a 1:1 ratio and had a noticeably airier mix I had great roots all the way through. I still have pics. It required more watering but it didn't dry out too fast, and although I didn't get as large a yield, I did see steady root health and turnover the complete grow, no slowdown. Was even using GH 3 part. By turnover I mean that I watch my roots enough to notice when I see the older roots get tan and newer white growth somewhere will add on and cover it, it should be constant.

Currently, well as far as my last few grows, I use smart pots and (in my current mix) up until the fifth week I always have bunches of white roots poking through the pots, plus I pull the sides down and do a visual look see. I am definitely in the more roots more fruits camp. So, they are fine until week 5 when they steadily slow down to where there's hardly any new roots. They don't get mushy, it's not root rot, at least not yet, and they smell fine, just like fresh potato peelings, but my gut feeling is that the final stage of bloom, when buds are stacking and swelling is just too much demand and an oxygen deficiency of some level develops. Since the time I did have the good root growth all the way through bloom was before I started using teas and other stuff, that will more than make up for the what I am thinking of going to below which will make it a change from 2:1 to 1:1?

I think I can safely improve the oxygen capacity if I go to a 1:1 FFOF to Sunshine/Pioneer Batch 64. I would keep the EWC and AForest at 10% of each base ingredient but instead of all Perlite I substitute out about 20% for vermiculite to help water retention, plus CEC. Considering I think I get good yields but my roots are not as high performance as during Veg, plus that I add nutes anyway, it would benefit me to make it more airy and more importantly I want a better resin appearance.

I use bone meal. My soil loves it.

I now the above dissertation I posted might seem a little over the top, but while I was back home taking care of funeral and all the related bullshit, the person who was taking care of maintain my moms and clones, pretty easy job (they were in six inch pots) lied to me about transplanting the clones, let the clones that were marked for new moms to grow to over five feet which became extremely lanky and had to have the bottom branches pruned almost halfway up. All had the tightest root balls I have ever seen. Upon coming how and immediately transplanting, several moms died over a period of several days where that just stopped all water intake. I think the solid nature of the root ball, transplanted onto an heavier mix, were not able to adopt in time from a light, rood bound state, and in light airy soil made it extremely hard fort that adjustment.

So, I did alright on the first clone transplant to 3 gallon containers, but I still have a coupled that have not grown into my mis. That's why I wanted some opinions.

Aw... fuck. I'm sorry to read all of this. I'll reread your post, but I'm not sure I can be very helpful to you here.

click80 said:

Number one, do you think I should use Bone Meal? I never have and get great yields compared to other people I know.

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I use it, but I don't really compare my grow to others so I can't speak very well on this issue.

click80 said:

More importantly I also found that my other grow place that I share with a friend, using the exact same clones, they got noticeably more frost than mine did. Everything except the mix is the same as far as climate, lights, temps.....ect. The only real dif is the mix she prefers is more airy, she prefers straight up Peat, worm castings and compost, and Perlite. 1:1:1 ratio. We use the same type teas, fish fertilizer, top dressing every week. At chop time they were noticeably frostier. I can't think of anything that would make that difference except the higher oxygen content which is a healthier root zone. At the end, which is about the time my roots slow down, is when stacking and swelling starts on this strain and hers had an exceptional coating of frost. Although mine were still fine, hers were prettier.

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This is perplexing, because her mix is a LOT simpler, I see more, or rather less going on with her mix than yours outside the relative O2 content.

click80 said:

but my gut feeling is that the final stage of bloom, when buds are stacking and swelling is just too much demand and an oxygen deficiency of some level develops. Since the time I did have the good root growth all the way through bloom was before I started using teas and other stuff, that will more than make up for the what I am thinking of going to below which will make it a change from 2:1 to 1:1?

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. However, if you really think lack of O is the problem here, perhaps you could use an old fish importer's trick and add 1tsp (5mls) H2O2 (3%) to the water column before watering. That boosts the O2 levels of the water and it really helps distressed organisms (I'm talking about vertebrate gilled fishes here, but also sharks, rays and skates, as well as hermatypic corals and Cnidarians--all of whom outside the bony gilled fishes are very delicate organisms in this regard).

My experience with vermiculite is that it makes a mix heavy and sludgy. I can't see how this would translate to better O2 levels. If you're concerned about water use, my own advice is to move away from the Smart Pots, because, unfortunately, they allow a HUGE amount of water loss. You've got a bit of a balancing act between these two issues.

I really wish we could get the old fashioned Mexican terra cotta pottery that was the staple when I was a kid. Decorated, even. Those things are perfect for growing pretty much anything, IMO.

Have you tried taking her mix and doing a side-by-side with it and your current mix? And, do you have your product tested, or are you just going off visuals and weight here? I'd be curious to know.