Advanced Techniques?!

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Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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Why is it that most of the threads in this section should be in the basic growing section?

Furthermore...why do some farmers repeatedly make the same basic mistakes? Are the faq's on point?
 
sedate

sedate

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Why is it that most of the threads in this section should be in the basic growing section?

Furthermore...why do some farmers repeatedly make the same basic mistakes? Are the faq's on point?

Yea I totally agree. I think the "General Indoor Growing" sections and the "Advanced Techniques & Problems" along with a lot of random posts from people that should be over in the Cannabis Infirmary, all sort of get aggregated randomly over here as well.

I usually check both forums since interesting stuff crops up both places.

But eitherway I've always thought the structure doesn't work so well with the way people post since everyone thinks that their technique or problem is 'advanced' . . . I dunno.
 
caveman4.20

caveman4.20

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Out of.curiousity what are some advanced techiniques or problems? .and what are beginner problems that shouldn be in advanced. Category?
 
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paulycali

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Why isn't this world perfect? Because people don't learn from their mistakes
 
C

cctt

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The only solution that will change anything is to have some anal retentive moderators patrolling the forum and moving or deleting threads that don't belong. You really can't count on members (especially of a free-to-all site like this) to think before posting.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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not to pick on anyone. like putembk mentioned - powder mildew. Basic maintenance. RO water vs tap water. Worst First year mistakes. helicopters (?!). yellowing. Those are just some of the current topics.

Where is the line? Is it a technique that cannot be mastered by everybody? Some farmers have trouble feeding/watering - does that mean it's advanced? Professional greenhouse operators would call most of the "advanced" issues on this forum no-brainers.

I spoke to a greenhouse owner last week. Off the top of his head, he solved almost every issue that we hobby growers struggle with. He chuckled at some of my questions. I thought I was pretty knowledgeable. He's several levels higher...and it's common knowledge with all pro greenhouse growers. It'd be like a grad student trying to help a 8th grade kid with math.
 
sedate

sedate

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not to pick on anyone. like putembk mentioned - powder mildew. Basic maintenance. RO water vs tap water. Worst First year mistakes. helicopters (?!). yellowing. Those are just some of the current topics.

Where is the line? Is it a technique that cannot be mastered by everybody? Some farmers have trouble feeding/watering - does that mean it's advanced? Professional greenhouse operators would call most of the "advanced" issues on this forum no-brainers.

Here I totally agree with you. The stuff in this particular sub-forum is pretty randomly correlated with the other sub-forums previously mentioned. It's a bit sloppy for those anally addicted to organization - but really - there is lots of valuable stuff in this forum so why get rid of it or arbitrarily move everything around now?

I'm not really a sysop (I mean come on, computers are toys ;) but I've done some simplistic website stuff in my life and it sounds like a big pain the ass to read all the topics and move them around to more appropriate sub-forums.

crysmatic said:
I spoke to a greenhouse owner last week. Off the top of his head, he solved almost every issue that we hobby growers struggle with. He chuckled at some of my questions. I thought I was pretty knowledgeable. He's several levels higher...and it's common knowledge with all pro greenhouse growers. It'd be like a grad student trying to help a 8th grade kid with math.

A few things here I find odd though:

1) I don't think the regular contributors here are "hobby" growers. We answer questions for them. I don't think that many peepz here with more than 6 mos of posting history are doing this for some free smoke out of a closet.

Most of us regulars are pretty serious dude.

2) What sort of things is this greenhouse owner such an expert in? That any of us regulars "struggle" with? Can you give us an example? There are many, many threads here from warehouse operators, large growers, dispensary owners, that are seriously simplistic in the questions posed - basic growing questions stuff about PPM's and airflow and pH. Only some of these guys have already bought in huge.

As they say, fools rush in. Baseline industry talent has improved considerably over the last 18 months or so, but there are plenty of morons out there that think they can grow money all day long with absolutely zero prior experience. I mean - it's a plant - how hard could it be?

IMHO, dispensary employees and owners/operators are seriously all over the board in their skills, comprehension, and passion for the product.

I mean - I often find that those with the money to fund warehouse grows - older folks with savings made from more traditional jobs and income sources - don't have the slightest ability to operate the equipment or even begin to care about what good cannabis is. Profiteers, in my experience, through and through.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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A few things here I find odd though:

1) I don't think the regular contributors here are "hobby" growers. We answer questions for them. I don't think that many peepz here with more than 6 mos of posting history are doing this for some free smoke out of a closet.

Most of us regulars are pretty serious dude.

I'm trying to delineate a grower to makes it all work optimally, and knows WHY it works or doesn't, and a farmer who gets great results, who maybe just copied someone else's recipe, and learns from multiple trial and error runs (and perhaps always on the verge of total failure). Hobby vs Pro...not based on op size, but knowledge. imho, the allure of TGA super soil is having the success, without earning the knowledge - just add water.

2) What sort of things is this greenhouse owner such an expert in? That any of us regulars "struggle" with? Can you give us an example? There are many, many threads here from warehouse operators, large growers, dispensary owners, that are seriously simplistic in the questions posed - basic growing questions stuff about PPM's and airflow and pH. Only some of these guys have already bought in huge.

farmers growing in RDWC, then wonder why they get pythium...and lose a crop. He uses Previcur, and gets on with growing.

Pros wouldn't mess around with varieties which are succeptible to disease or pests, or are difficult or finicky to grow.

There are a lot of instruments that pro growers use to determine optimum conditions. Their Priva climate computer software is $100,000. pretty serious stuff. They steer the plants daily, and very accurately. Tomatos are not a cash crop, and they have to do everything right.

Pro growers don't argue whether defoliation is good or bad, ad nauseum. They leave 18 leafs on the plant at any one time...and they all do it that way.

They know how to steer the plant vegetatively or generatively, and when/how to balance growth. They know how to prevent weak growth, and encourage strong growth, despite varying weather conditions. Controlled environments should make it a no brainer.

They pay about $0.50 / m^3 / EC for fertilizer solution. Imagine using the whole line up of advanced nutrients for 200,000 plants!! Also, no organics, humics, PGR, or even silica (for this grower). Higher EC raises brix, and lowers yield. The EC in the rockwool slabs is kept at 3.5 mS. The fertigation strategy prevents salt buildup...no 2 week flush bs.

He recycles 100% of his drain, and samples the solution weekly, adding in only what the plants use. Our good-enough solution is DTW. It's wasteful, polluting, and costly, but without weekly sampling, it's as close as a hobby grower can get to pro results. We can do ONE run with sampling, and as long as you grow the same variety, nothing will change.

As they say, fools rush in. Baseline industry talent has improved considerably over the last 18 months or so, but there are plenty of morons out there that think they can grow money all day long with absolutely zero prior experience. I mean - it's a plant - how hard could it be?

IMHO, dispensary employees and owners/operators are seriously all over the board in their skills, comprehension, and passion for the product.

I mean - I often find that those with the money to fund warehouse grows - older folks with savings made from more traditional jobs and income sources - don't have the slightest ability to operate the equipment or even begin to care about what good cannabis is. Profiteers, in my experience, through and through.

I totally agree with everything you say. The high profit makes cash croppers lazy. Waste costs money. Knowledge costs money. Incompetence costs the most.
 
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kushtrees

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As far as comparing tomato and other vegetable growing with cannabis you cannot forget that food crops have had EXTENSIVE research done on them to determine the best conditions, cannabis has not had this treatment. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but as far as controlled studies we are seriously lacking.

You this the 18 leaf thing was figured out through trial and error? I doubt it, I'm guessing a controlled research study to determine that exact perimeter was done on a very large scale to ensure it was statistically significant.

I've seen one if the USDA ag research sites it's acrers. And they follow research procedures very carefully, remember they are testing things that will be used nation if not world wide for food production. We do not have the capabilities to test on this scale so we have to fall back to anecdotal evidence that varies with set up by set up.

On top of that, strains are soooo numerous and different due to so many breeders that we don't have constant genetic. A beefsteak tomato is pretty similar nation wide, OGs are almost always different.

I do agree that a lot of shit in the advanced forum, like yellowing is misplaced. (We have a cannabis infirmary). But I bet that with some information on food crop and commercial green house techniques, some people here could easily run a commercial green house.
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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Some greenhouse growers use a Plant Activity monitor. They can SEE, in real time, how the plant is reacting to a certain set of conditions. SO, you can very quickly determine how to steer a plant effectively, you can find out what the plant likes to give maximum generative growth. Those large field trials don't use trial and error either.

One huge piece of the puzzle is the optimum transpiration rate...which is tied to radiation sum. Tomatoes want 2.0-2.2 ml/J. Even that would take maybe a week to figure out in a pro setting. VpD, temp, diff, EC, WC, nute profile...several weeks at most. Some growers on this site probably have it spot on...just through observation and experience...and then you have 20 guys who will argue it.

It's not limited to genetics - the same process applies to tomatoes, peppers or cannabis. Know your substrate, know your plant. There are instruments to measure all salient parameters - it's definitely an investment. It's not some big mystery. The growers who don't use PA monitors aren't down on production. Like you said, there is commonality and shared info, and astute growers don't suffer.

The thing with our industry is the lack of consistent methods, and communication of vague or misinformation. imo plant number restrictions encourage wasteful methods.

I count a handful of people who could run a 1000 cannabis plant greenhouse. They could grow cannabis like they grow tomatoes, but they'd go bankrupt growing tomatoes like they grow cannabis. As it is, Canadian high-tech greenhouses are going under. Mexican cartels run the greenhouses in Mexico. They undersell American produce, turn a profit, and they're great for laundering money. (They're adding 2000 acres of greenhouses every year - more than Canada's total acreage!!) If Health Canada has its way, Canadian greenhouses will be growing our medicine beginning April 2014. [/rant] ;)

peace
 
sedate

sedate

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Wow Crysmatic you really through a lot out there. Um.

So for all this "pro" talk I find a bit off - but a few things really jump out at me:

Crysmatic said:
I'm trying to delineate a grower to makes it all work optimally, and knows WHY it works or doesn't, and a farmer who gets great results, who maybe just copied someone else's recipe, and learns from multiple trial and error runs (and perhaps always on the verge of total failure). Hobby vs Pro...not based on op size, but knowledge

Wow. I guess from a certain perspective I get what you are saying, but I guess I just do not really agree.

Having a phD in horticulture is about the last thing someone needs to be successful in this business.

I think any grower still in it after a year has pretty much done all of the things you mention above. Folks who copy someone else - without understanding why - generally do have much less success longer term. Indeed - often they don't get the grow off the ground.

But the need to tune in the optimal transpiration rate before graduating out of "hobby" grow seems pretty - um - uppity and absurd - never mind some of us don't have grow rooms that are conducive that that sort of installation.

If a growroom churns out 1-lb plants three or four or five times a month - but is open and has uncontrolled humidity - is that a hobby grow?

Crysmatic said:
Pro growers don't argue whether defoliation is good or bad, ad nauseum. They leave 18 leafs on the plant at any one time...and they all do it that way.

I have to say I find this sentence just - bizarre.

Needless to say I don't think many of us argue that ad-nasuem - and folks that understand what leaves do do not really argue that point either. "Leaves take up plant energy" is the definition of vague misinformation left over from the Overgrow heyday.

And what the fuck is with this "18 leaves" thing?

kushtrees said:
You this the 18 leaf thing was figured out through trial and error? I doubt it, I'm guessing a controlled research study to determine that exact perimeter was done on a very large scale to ensure it was statistically significant.

^^^ Yea really. Answer that Crysmatic I really want to hear about this.

Crysmatic said:
They know how to steer the plant vegetatively or generatively, and when/how to balance growth. They know how to prevent weak growth, and encourage strong growth, despite varying weather conditions. Controlled environments should make it a no brainer.

We are all somehow confused about to train our plants? What?

Crysmatic said:
They pay about $0.50 / m^3 / EC for fertilizer solution. Imagine using the whole line up of advanced nutrients for 200,000 plants!!

Um. Advanced Nutrients is for noob hobby growers. Everyone here knows that . .

Crysmatic said:
He recycles 100% of his drain, and samples the solution weekly, adding in only what the plants use. Our good-enough solution is DTW. It's wasteful, polluting, and costly, but without weekly sampling, it's as close as a hobby grower can get to pro results.

What kind of blanket assertion is this?

Nevermind you would get more consistent results from mixing fresh solution every single time - but it would be wasteful. Reusing the stuff is the defintion of "good enough." Anyway - with DTW systems I think most folks recycle.

Crysmatic said:
Higher EC raises brix, and lowers yield. The EC in the rockwool slabs is kept at 3.5 mS. The fertigation strategy prevents salt buildup...no 2 week flush bs.

1) Higher brix raises EC (you have it backwards - or maybe it's the "pro" ;) ) - which can, but does not necessarily, lower yield (and arguments can be made for sugars/beneficials that are highly compelling), and

2) I don't think very many regulars here have problems with buildup. And I most of us understand that prolonged flushing when nutrients were not excessive is wasteful. This isn't grand knowledge by any means.

And - lastly -
Crysmatic said:
imho, the allure of TGA super soil is having the success, without earning the knowledge - just add water.
You know . . . I've tried Super Soil a few times. I had crap results.

midwestdensies said:
kind of seems like a lets hate for the fuck of it thread. how about who cares homie. Just sort thru the bs just like the real world

Yea it sort of seems like Crysmatic doesn't like this forum b/c the level of conversation is somewhat less than graduate level horticulture with $100,000 lab benches and the attendant graphs. Surely he would not be happier at RIU?

And what the fuck is with that 18 leaf comment? Please just explain that. I have to know.
 
midwestdensies

midwestdensies

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Chrysmatic- sorry man not trying to hate but I can tell your a smart cookie its quite easy see from your posts but that being said come on man.. you know what the world is filled with. Youd do a lot better just helping others who arent as smart in that topic. I also find that even complete dumbasses can be adept in their expertise which are things I could never ascertain. Its all good sherlock homies.

MW
 
sedate

sedate

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Chrysmatic- sorry man not trying to hate but I can tell your a smart cookie its quite easy see from your posts but that being said come on man.. you know what the world is filled with. Youd do a lot better just helping others who arent as smart in that topic. I also find that even complete dumbasses can be adept in their expertise which are things I could never ascertain.

Yea Crysmatic I think midwest is on target here.

I mean - I have a lot of experience with forum life - before I did grow rooms I did computers and car stereos. Most posters here know I'm pretty wordy and I've still probably got 10,000 posts in my life across like 8 different forums over the last 12 years or so.

So here's the dynamic with any technical forum:

1) Regulars/Pros hang out and make friends watching and learning from each others' trick set-ups, knowledge, and research. I think everyone here has picked up a trick or two looking at some of the grow diaries or the UC or MPB subforums . . .

2) Newbies wander in and ask simple questions about equipment or what-have-you, and then,

3) The regulars answer the question and debate the topic among themselves, adding more knowledge and research to the general pool of knowledge on the board. Often times, the best threads have an OP that never posts back after the first page of replies - we all sort of just take it from there - far past the simple question that often started the discussion.

It's through this dynamic that the regular posters get exposed to different ideas and better and deeper knowledge - not by the simple questions newbies post.

I mean I am not here to answer simple questions about bulbs or fertilizers or pH levels either, but through doing so I get far smarter interacting with others and sharing their experiences - successes and failures.

Anyway - I know my reply above is pretty terse and probably makes me sound like a cock - but stick around Crysmatic you have much to offer - but it doesn't much matter if others' do not have as much knowledge or experience as you for you to benefit from interacting with them. Trust me on that. :)
 
Crysmatic

Crysmatic

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And what the fuck is with that 18 leaf comment? Please just explain that. I have to know.


This is what I got from the grower:

Greenhouse growers grow indeterminate plants, that continue to grow like a vine. Tomatoes grow over 30 m long in a season (about 100'). Leaves have a finite life, and they're taken when they're about 2 weeks old. The number of leaves on a plant steers it either vegetatively or generatively. The grower doesn't want too strong a generative response during peak fruiting - he strives for a balance. They also remove leaves that shade fruit to encourage ripening. The minimum number of leaves that a plant needs to yield well is about 18 (I believe this is called Leaf Area Index). They remove leaves as they go so that they don't stress the plant (which would stall growth and hurt yield).

Another argument for defoliating is that there's no profit in growing leaf or stem. It doesn't transpire as much, so it uses less water. He also holds rH to 70-85%, which raises transpiration as I understand it.

Does that answer your question?

I don't believe it's graduate level knowledge. It would be absurd to expect someone to know this stuff if it wasn't available (as I speak, I stumbled on it 6 weeks ago). afaik, it's a 20-40 hour course. I don't agree with the laissez faire attitude. I look for things that can advance my understanding within days, not of years of trial and error. Some growers absolutely have a sense of this stuff, but lack the terminology and concepts to communicate them effectively (and the reader lacks as well).
 
sedate

sedate

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crysmatic said:
Greenhouse growers grow indeterminate plants, that continue to grow like a vine. Tomatoes grow over 30 m long in a season (about 100'). Leaves have a finite life, and they're taken when they're about 2 weeks old. The number of leaves on a plant steers it either vegetatively or generatively. The grower doesn't want too strong a generative response during peak fruiting - he strives for a balance. They also remove leaves that shade fruit to encourage ripening. The minimum number of leaves that a plant needs to yield well is about 18 (I believe this is called Leaf Area Index). They remove leaves as they go so that they don't stress the plant (which would stall growth and hurt yield).

Not sure I agree with all that 100%, at least as applied to cannabis (since you bring up tomatoes) but yes, that most certainly does answer my question. :)

crysmatic said:
. I don't agree with the laissez faire attitude. I look for things that can advance my understanding within days, not of years of trial and error. Some growers absolutely have a sense of this stuff, but lack the terminology and concepts to communicate them effectively (and the reader lacks as well).


Sure.

"Lack the terminology and concepts to communicate effectively" - yea really. I think this alone contributes enormously to the amount of misinformation around.

At least you, Crysmatic, are satisfactorily verbose. ;)
 
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