Aero/Nutramist Tree

[robz]

Man that's a lot of work fir 1 plant.

 

[ironlungs]

intrested in the yeild

 

[Doobie Nyce]

this is awesome

 

[budboy299]

gotta say, this is off the charts in the coolness factor!!

 

[Tsunami Rose]

Subbed, can't wait to see some flowers

 

[foaf]

Ok, so as I mentioned this was an experiment and I've learned quite a few things from it.

The plant was seeming fine, I was about to flip the lights and it just kinda stalled. The leaves were healthy looking and all, but growth stopped. So I accessed the chamber and the roots had just grown preferentially towards the emitters, so they were just dribbling water. I also had one short part of a day when the aero timer failed. The nutramist system didn't even come close to keeping the plant from wilting, although I caught it after just about 6 hours, so I dont think there was any damage, but I deemed the nutramist worthless.

So I cut away the pipe and built a frame out of pvc to hold 16 emitters at a distance from the root mass. I put a water heater drain pan to catch and surrounded it with black/white plastic, kinda like a shower curtain. It really worked great from just a mechanical perspective and the roots went from cramped and sort of orange, back to growing vigorously and very white.

roots as they appeared when I cut the pipe away

root just one week later, quickly recovered

the "shower curtain" root chamber

Well, the roots stayed healthy looking and so did the plant, but it never began to grow vigorously again. Since this is a 120 day sativa that I really wanted a good grow out of (and I dont grow the same strain twice), I cut her down and am starting over again with a more reliable non experimental system. I did ditch all those cfl lights, they were at the end of their lifespan anyway, and bought 15 x 100 watt LED UFO lights to use as side lighting, and replaced my overhead HPS with a hortilux dual arc lamp.

Trunk and roots at execution

What I think I learned from this:

1) Nutramist is worthless, it cant even keep a big plants from wilting
2) In aero, if the roots can grow over to the emitters, they will, and they will block the mist. The mist needs some free space to spread out or its not aero
3) at least in this setup, the mantra "big good roots = good plant" just didn't pan out.
4) You don't need a full chamber for aero, just a catch pan and a shower curtain. I think that could be adapted to multi small plant grows and could easily simplify the whole construction
5) I don't think you can grow a multi pound tree with aero.

My clones are growing happily in their reliable 12 gallon hydroton bucket now, surrounded by seductive purple LED lights. I'll do another thread on that perhaps, its sure to work, I have lots of experience with hydroton buckets. ;)

 

[Bobby Smith]

FOAF, thanks for the great update and summary - it's very much appreciated.

A quick question for you - when you say "can't grow large trees in aero", are you solely referring to TAG or do you think that applies to LP aero as well? If the latter, why do you say that?

I realize that in TAG the massive root system would cause the mist to coagulate before it got to a lot of the interior roots, but would the same (in your opinion) be an issue in LP aero with tons of sprayer heads?

Again, thanks for the summary - you've saved me a lot of time and money :)

 

[MediMary]

A+
thank you foaf.

 

[foaf]

when you say "can't grow large trees in aero", are you solely referring to TAG or do you think that applies to LP aero as well? If the latter, why do you say that?

I mostly mean TAG. Even with TAG, I bet that there is some sort of "scrog" type trellis or training technique that you could set up to allow larger surface area of roots to be subject to the small particles of mist. I had hoped that the PVC pipe system and the nutramist would feed the inside of the root mass, but it really didn't. For one, I dont think the nutramist works much at all and for two, the roots are tenacious about growing into and around the frame I set up, basically incorporating it into the rootball.

And for me, a big tree is a multi pound tree, as I grow just one and with lots of light, I suspect that a short period indica in a big bush would work out even in a setup like mine evolved into. Playing with some type of way to hang and train the roots seems essential to growing a bigger plant with TAG or low pressure aero.

Also, my plant stalled once the roots got kinda root bound and never really regained steam, so starting with more root space might end up differently.

It was fun, and so for me it was a success. I'm not running low on pot and have a clone already taking hold in a big hydroton bucket. My next experiment just shifts to using LEDs for side lights, thats new for me and the reduced heat should let me put co2 back in.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

You can grow a multi lber you just need more room. I have a 48" tall x 23" wide 60 gal rez I converted for an experiment with 2 layers of screen inside to hold the roots up. I am using propagation misters at 60 psi I am running at 2 on/6 off. My low pressure(60 psi) 36 gal will give you your 1 kg plant easily. I am wondering if it is possible for a 3.5-4 lber though. I think it has to do with the roots we build. I think the plant's pumps are not sufficiently strong enough to pump that much weight(nute/water) up into a well developed branchy girl. Just a random thought though.
You ever get pictures of your self recovery sys that does not use a compressor? Hope you have a killer year and a full jar.Suerte JK

 

[Bobby Smith]

Hey FOAF, I hope you're still lurking around somewhere around here..........long story short, was drinking the other night and on a whim bought everything I need for HP aero, but here's my issue:

Doing my research (after ordering everything, naturally) I noticed that no one on the Net is really running that high of a pressure - most are in the 70-90PSI range (the pump I ordered is a 150PSI with a 115PSI cutout switch) - so there's my question:

Why do you run such a (compared to other grows online) high pressure in your system?

Also, what size is your accumulator and how often did your pump cycle (guesstimate, don't need exacts).

Thanks.

 

[foaf]

Hi

Well, the nozzles all mention that the particle size goes down as the pressure goes up, and never being one to do things the easy way, I went as high as my accumulator tank would allow. I have one of the I think 4 gallon tanks from waterfiltersonline.com a great souce for RO stuff, tubing, quick fittings, and such.

The pump cycled about once every 10 spray cycles with 16 emitters and towards the end I ran on for 6 seconds. The emitters put out a good bit more than what the ratings say, because they end up dribbling out the residual pressure in the lines between the valve and the emitter.

I liked the way it worked from a mechanical standpoint, especially the drain to waste, and as mentioned, I think for a smaller plant with a shorter flower cycle, aero would have been great and fun. It was still fun even though it kinda failed.

The problem with a 115 psi cut out switch is that you cant find an accumulator tank that goes above 100 psi, but the mercoid cxa-s2 switch that I had was cheap and had an adjustable cut in and cut out so you could set the dwell.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Hey man, thanks for getting back to me :)

Actually found a 4.4 gallon accumulator tank that goes up to 150PSI here (actually bought off eBay for $20 less):



While I've got your attention (I think I'm good on how to set it up with the plumbing and whatnot) - I have a 15 column DIY Octagon (6 plants per column), and I have 30 misters - if it was you, how would you setup the misters? Obviously one at the top, and then......? Also, would you aim them horizontally or vertically? I'd think horizontally would keep the mist in the columns the longest, no? Instead of aiming them down and accelerating the process of gravity?

I'm thinking a mister at the top and then somewhere around the third plant down, but I have nothing to base that off of except a gut feeling.

Sorry for all the questions............I'm gonna start a thread when I start construction in a couple of days (or whenever all the parts get here) - I'd love it if you checked in.

And again, thanks for taking the time to help an idiot like me - it's very much appreciated.

EDIT: any idea how fine of a mesh screen would be needed so that plant's roots couldn't go through it? Just reread your thread and think I might've come up with a good idea.........

 

[foaf]

neato, I looked and looked for a higher pressure one. good work.

as far as arranging the emitters, I would just make sure that if possible, you have them mounted in a way that you can move them around later as the roots grow and change. Im not sure exactly what an octagon is, but I think it is a pvc pipe based system, 4 inch/ I would just eyeball it once it is live, and see what looks best. I agree, there is no real advice on this except for just what looks good and that may change as the roots grow. If its based on a common setup, I would start by copying someone with success. You definately want as much distance between the emitter and the roots as you can.

looking foreward to your grow

 

[Bobby Smith]

Unfortunately, my stupid ass kinda decided to be the guinea pig for this setup/delivery system, so there is no blueprint to follow - BTW, my system is my avatar (surrounds four stacked 600s) - I deleted all my pics the other day (stupid paranoia, I'm all better now :) ), but here's a quick video I shot showing it when it was LP aero/NFT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsQGDcTevs

I think I have a somewhat awesome idea - have a mister at the top, and a mister at the 3rd plant down - both vertically oriented, shooting straight down.

Now, normally the second mister in each column would get covered by roots and render it virtually worthless, but I'm thinking of running a screen down the backside of each column, creating a "root-free" zone (aka a "mist highway") where the mist can travel down and hit every plant as it disperses, free of roots blocking it...............does that make any sense?

Just trying to figure out what kinda screen I'd need to keep the roots out - in your opinion, would a simple screen from Home Depot to keep bugs out work?

Or would I need like a silk screen?

This is either an awesome idea or an idea which truly demonstrates my idiocy...........time will tell.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I REALLY appreciate your help.......

 

[foaf]

I tried that. Small mesh screens just totally block the mist and water just runs down it. Larger screens let the roots through, in fact the roots will use the screen to grow towards the emitter and block it. I would make more like an "awning" over an emitter, the roots cant grow over if they dont have anything to use as a trellis. In fact, in those tubes I would make the "awning" such that the roots have a fairly narrow path between the edge of what I call an awning, and the side of the tube which is opposite the emitter.

How long do you veg and what flower time does your strain have? I think that makes a big difference in how long the roots have to try and foil your plans.

 

[Bobby Smith]

Going to be doing a 90 plant SOG, so probably won't veg more than a week or two - flip at around 8-12" is the plan.

Have *kinda* run this strain before, and finishes around 9 weeks..........but that was without CO2 (summer so it was too hot to run it and didn't have an AC setup at that time), so guessing around 8-9 weeks.

Since the 4" tubes are not *really* large enough to allow the full HP aero "experience", do you think that just putting two emitters at the top would be the best move? Just let the mist travel downwards via gravity, and when the plants get larger, the lower plants will just get more of an LP aero/NFT feeding?

Shit, probably should've thought of this before ordering everything, huh? Lol........

 

[Bobby Smith]

FOAF, have taken your advice and created an "awning" over my lower mister (using a sun screen), so thanks for that.

Now, onto the business at hand :)

For the life of me, I can't figure out how a chiller helps out at all in an HP aero system with an accumulator..........the nutes leave the reservoir and are suspended in tubing for an hour or two before they're released, at which point they're (theoretically) almost room temperature.......so how does a chiller help?

Here's a link to a thread I started (asking the same question) if you'd prefer to answer me there, although here works just as well :)

Sorry for mucking up your thread, but this is the only "Batman Signal" I know of to get in touch with you.......

 

[foaf]

I hope it works out for you. Will you be able to look into any little portholes to see how the roots grow in relation to your emitters and the little awning guards. That would be cool.

I hear you on the chiller. The volumes of water are too small to provide cooling and there isnt any evaporative cooling to speak of.

I built that goofy little mini chiller, and it did keep my chambers temperatures at my exact settings, but I have no idea how important it is in aero.



with a closed pvc pipe system, if heat is a problem I would get one of those ice box heat exchangers, hook it to my chiller, and find a way to recirculate chilled air from one end of the setup to the other. But then again, I like doing things the complicated way, as appearently you do too. :)

 

[Bobby Smith]

Lol, now that takes complicated to a new level :)

Thanks for getting back to me - for the life of me, if doing a drain to waste HP aero setup, I can't see how temps <80F would be an issue.

I'm setting mine up to be recirculating, so in order to keep pathogens at bay I might have to keep the reservoir <=70F (which I imagine it will be anyways with the cool coil inserted into it), but with a drain to waste I can't see it being an issue.

And no porthole to speak of, but now that you mention it I might throw one in there - attached is a pic looking down from the top of the column, so I'll be able to see the roots of most of the plants until the column is totally filled.