Are strains improving?

[TwoCreeks]

I'm not talking about potency here.

I killed two 5 foot outdoor girls today due to on-going powdery mildew problems. They were OG Kush clones from Oaksterdam. I know other growers have been having PM issues this Spring and are blaming it on the unusual weather. In 30 years of outdoor growing in Norcal I've never seen or heard of plants getting powdery mildew until this year. I don't think these problems are due to the weather. In the years from '79-
'86 growing newly arrived indica strains and the early hybrids, not knowing any better, we used to put plants outdoors as early as mid- March. The plants saw lots of rain, cold, frost, and sometimes snow. They were not hurt by this. They never got PM. They never started budding early. We never lost a plant to weather. They did not do any better than plants we put out in mid-May, but they did just fine. The pests we worried about were deer, wood rats, and rabbits, which could be controlled with fences. And bears, not controlled by fences too well.

I find myself thinking that the plants we grew in those days from seed were much hardier than what growers work with today. The emphasis on indoor grows, clones over seeds, and so much interbreeding among strains might have accentuated certain desirable traits, like yield and to a lesser extent, potency, (yes, there were strains in those days I would put up against the best of today) but it seems like this has happened at the expense of other desirable traits in the plant.

JUst my opinion. Any thoughts?

 

[420Gator]

im a completely new farmer but it sounds like the plants you grew back then were a little closer to the original copy (genetically speaking) thus being evolved in a fashion where pure survival is the main concern. Over a couple decades of selective breeding and mutations the strains today are all about yield, potency, and $. Possibly the plant has sacrificed in some areas to compensate in others. For example a 2 year old chimp has better short term memory than a full grown human being. We traded short term memory for long term. The chimp maybe able to locate and procure a banana quicker than me in the jungle but he cant drive(well) or build an automobile. Just my view after reading lots of books on evolution and selective breeding. Same goes for cows, chickens, pigs etc, they grow biggger/faster every year, its all about turnaround time

 

[TwoCreeks]

All about the $$$$.
sometimes it is a shame.

 

[Malachi]

Powdery Mildew is sometimes passed on through the original mom. It is not like typical mildew that you think of but more like a plant disease ... sometimes its impossible to cure.

 

[Dulce]

Here's another possible explanation-

The strain you used was an OG Kush variety, right?? Well, if it was a true OG Clone then consider this: the OG is 10+ years old (prolly more, but I'll let those really in the know speak on that) and after so many years of cloning and multiplying etc etc, any strain will have problems maintaining it's vigor. Vigor is a big part of helping to keep a strain strong and resistant to things such as powdery mildew. Perhaps the clones you purchased were just tired and could not properly protect themselves.

Just some food for thought

~D~

 

[420Gator]

All about the $$$$.
sometimes it is a shame.

with the short reproductive cylce of this plant you could start selectively breeding plants that do well in adverse conditions, meanwhile not letting profit related aspects effect your selections

 

[420Gator]

you could even start putting them in slightly more adverse conditions and only keeping the strong ones

 

[TwoCreeks]

Here's another possible explanation-

The strain you used was an OG Kush variety, right?? Well, if it was a true OG Clone then consider this: the OG is 10+ years old (prolly more, but I'll let those really in the know speak on that) and after so many years of cloning and multiplying etc etc, any strain will have problems maintaining it's vigor. Vigor is a big part of helping to keep a strain strong and resistant to things such as powdery mildew. Perhaps the clones you purchased were just tired and could not properly protect themselves.

Just some food for thought

~D~

I think that is a very valid observation. I also think there are LOTS of plants being grown, maybe increasing quantities as time goes by, that fit that descrition. There was a time when almost everything was grown from seed, and I think many times clones present a set of problems that growing from seed can avoid.

 

[Blaze]

I find myself thinking that the plants we grew in those days from seed were much hardier than what growers work with today. The emphasis on indoor grows, clones over seeds, and so much interbreeding among strains might have accentuated certain desirable traits, like yield and to a lesser extent, potency, (yes, there were strains in those days I would put up against the best of today) but it seems like this has happened at the expense of other desirable traits in the plant.

JUst my opinion. Any thoughts?

I think that you are quite correct with this observation. The majority of breeding is done indoors these days - very few people breed with outdoor in mind. The result of this is in my opinion been the development of strains that can no longer cope with the stress of a natural, outdoor environment. In my experience the majority of the newer strains put out by breeders completely and totally suck for outdoor growing. So many breeders put such emphasis on potency and look, that traits such as vigor and resistance to pests and diseases have fallen by the way side.

For this reason I rarely ever grow strains from seed companies outdoors anymore. The genetics that I can get from local breeders that breed with outdoor in mind here in NorCal blow away most of what the seed companies and indoor breeders produce in my opinion. These strains have been acclimated to the native environment, and therefore do much better than strains that have been bred and grown in a controlled indoor grow room.

This makes a lot of sense if you think about it for a minute. The environment that a population of organisms lives in pushes that population in a certain direction - this is natural selection at work. Thus if you are only growing and breeding in an indoor environment, you are pushing the population of your plants in that direction. The result is strains that can preform well indoors but can no longer cope with an outdoor environment. There is a general rule of thumb in the agriculture and nursery industry - never get a plant that comes from more than 100 miles away or more than 1000 feet in elevation. The reason for this is that plants, even plants of the same species and variety, tend to not do so well when they are removed from their native environment and placed in a new one. The same holds true when you take an indoor strain and try to grow it outdoors.

In addition there has been a big push to NOT grow from seed anymore. Think about how many growers you know still do seeds; it is probably not many. Genetic variation is important when growing ANY crop. When you grow the same clone over and over again, then your entire crop will be prone to the same problems and pests. Thus, what might have only wiped out one or two phenotypes of a given strain will suddenly wipe out an entire crop. Real seeds, not bullshit feminized seeds (though that is a rant for another day), are important in keeping the cannabis species viable in the future. For example take a look at the banana plant. It has been propagated by cutting for around 10,000 years now. The result of this has been that pests and diseases have had 10,000 years to evolve ways to attack the banana plant while the banana has remained stagnant. Since it cannot reproduce sexually it can no loner adapt to the ever changing outdoor environment. The result: the banana is slowly going extinct.

However I also think that much of this problem comes from poor agricultural practices. In my experience few indoor growers have a concept of Integrated Pest Management (IPM) or proper agricultural practices in general. I see a lot of people using the same product for the same pest over, and over, and over again. Well guess what this does - it pushes the population of pests in a certain direction (seeing a common theme here?) By using the same product to deal with the same pest time and again you are selecting for individuals that are resistant to that specific product. The result is people are unintentionally breeding pest populations with a high degree of resistance to normal methods of control.

You should always have at least two or three different products to deal with each pest. For example I have two different sprays I can use for mold, two for mildew, three for insects, and then several other more specific products I will use for mites, nematodes, etc. When ever possible i use bio-control methods such as predatory nematodes, aerated compost teas, etc. By alternating with what I am using I make sure my local pest population never builds up a tolerance to any one product or method.

At this point I would say that 90+% of the clones I see coming from indoor environments are infected with something - PM, mites, etc. The result of this is that many of these pests that used to be not such an issues with outdoor growing are becoming more common since most of the clones that people try to grow outdoors are coming from an indoor set up some place. These last few years I have been seeing this more and more. This is why there are VERY few people I will get clones from at this point, and why I tend to grow a lot of seed starts that I have bred myself.

Really what it comes down to though is lack of education of the basic principals of breeding and IMP. If more people, especially indoor growers, took the time to educate themselves we would not be seeing these problems. People need to think about what they are doing and what the long term ramifications of their actions are.

I know it probably sounds like I am ragging on indoor growers, and this might piss some people off, but this is a very real problem and will only get worse unless people get their act together. The combination of growing indoors and not knowing the basics of biology is screwing strains up big time for all of us. The bottom line is that people need to get educated on the proper way to deal with these pests and learn from the "real" farmers out there!