Bennificials question

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Mr.Sputnik

Mr.Sputnik

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you need tricoderma in a live res DWC to eat up dead root mass that has been broken down by enzymes.

Roots oregonism is about the same as great white and a HELL of a lot cheaper. Oregonism works great, I can attest to that. I've run both great white and oregonism and I prefer the oregonism for DWC. I've had good success with it in dirt as well, worked better than EN/EA for sure. Dope it up with some molasses.

companion microbial looks pretty good too but i've never tried it.

oregonism, great white, and humboldt myco madness all have tricoderma.
 
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biggun4me

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WOW that's a lot of info... Thanks to all.. SO let me ask another question because I am kinda slow, but I will eventually catch on.. I am looking at the Plant revolution web site and I can not find how often to use Great White.. Is it every time I water? Do I use it all threw Veg? DO I keep using it in flower? Thanks... Peace
 
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PuFFnNugg

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Use beneficials early, most companies say to treat, then repeat 2-4 wks later. Dosage on Great White is on the container, if your hydro just mix in rez, soil one time watering or treat the soil before planting.

You do bring up a good question about usage in flower. I've seen two conpanies that cut there Beneficials off two wks into flower. Anyone have any insight on this.

I keep hearing this about plants not using amino acids, and I think ppl are miss understanding this. Plants don't actually consume the amino acids they actually create them, and they are beneficial in breaking nutrients down to a usable form for the plant. The affects of using enzyme solutions will be even greater in organic nutrients.

I would like to hear more about not using humic/fulvic acids...Why???
 
Mr.Sputnik

Mr.Sputnik

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Once you inoculate your dirt, theoretically the bacteria should colonize and grow on their own. Bennies feed on sugars so feed them sugars. It's pointless in my mind to inoculate your dirt more than once. If you really want to make sure you've got bacteria I guess you could do it twice. Hydro is different, I reinoculate after each res change for the first 3 weeks of flower.

For dirt here's what I do.

Grab a gallon of distilled water, chlorine will kill off your bennies. Pour most of it into a pitcher of water. Check the water temp, you want your water temp to be in the low 70's for good inoculation. Take about 5 tbsp of the cheapest molasses you cand find (the cheaper, the better) and mix it into the pitcher of water until dissolved. then GENTLY mix your bennies into the water. Leave the pitcher in a cool, dark place where the water temp will remain the low 70's for 3-5 days. then add to your dirt. this should be good for 16 plants in 4" square pots, or 8 plants in 1 gallon pots.

this is just like brewing beer where the yeast eats the sugars but instead you're feeding the bennies. It should stink like toe jam or fumunda cheese if it's ready to go.
 
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flippo420

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Once you inoculate your dirt, theoretically the bacteria should colonize and grow on their own. Bennies feed on sugars so feed them sugars. It's pointless in my mind to inoculate your dirt more than once. If you really want to make sure you've got bacteria I guess you could do it twice. Hydro is different, I reinoculate after each res change for the first 3 weeks of flower.

For dirt here's what I do.

Grab a gallon of distilled water, chlorine will kill off your bennies. Pour most of it into a pitcher of water. Check the water temp, you want your water temp to be in the low 70's for good inoculation. Take about 5 tbsp of the cheapest molasses you cand find (the cheaper, the better) and mix it into the pitcher of water until dissolved. then GENTLY mix your bennies into the water. Leave the pitcher in a cool, dark place where the water temp will remain the low 70's for 3-5 days. then add to your dirt. this should be good for 16 plants in 4" square pots, or 8 plants in 1 gallon pots.

this is just like brewing beer where the yeast eats the sugars but instead you're feeding the bennies. It should stink like toe jam or fumunda cheese if it's ready to go.

Mr. Sputnik,
I hate to tell u this, but u got it all wrong bro. No "tea" should ever smell like anything but clean earth. By letting your concoction sit for 3+ days with no air supply it quickly goes anaerobic which means all the benes die off and are replaced by bad bacteria, ie. E.coli, etc. Also if you're using benes with salt based fertilizer (which all hydro nutes are) then you're killing them as soon as you put them in your rez. You need to check out a book called "Teaming With Microbes." It will really enlighten you. It did me. Good luck!
 
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ehole

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Also if you're using benes with salt based fertilizer (which all hydro nutes are) then you're killing them as soon as you put them in your rez.

gonna have to disagree entirely with that statement. too much P is bad but it's not gonna kill all of them if you have a reasonable P count.
 
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flippo420

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ehole,

Have you read "Teaming With Microbes?" I'm not claiming to be a soil biologist or anything else but I can read and understand most things I do. According to people much smarter than me if you are using chemical mineral salt based nutrients you are killing the microbes in your media. Chemically fed plants don't form mycorrizal relationships because there is no need. They are being force fed with chemical chelates and therefore don't need the mycorrizae the perform that funtion for them. Also there is little or no organic matter in a hydro system which is what the benes eat. How do they survive without food? Again, check out the book it's a great read and many leading soil biologists swear by it. Peace.
 
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PuFFnNugg

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Why would chemical nutes kill your Microbes? I wouldn't put it past the nute giants to sell you garbage, but most fert programs that use Microbe/Beneficials contain chemical ferts. Almost all argiculture is done with chemical salts, I just don't see how they could use them if this was the case.

What is considered a reasonable P count?

Seems like Ph and Temp would be more important to Micorbes/BB's, would you explain more about to much P being bad.
 
Blaze

Blaze

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The exact PPM's of P, K, N, etc that will kill off your benini's is still debatable, but flippo420 is quite correct in his statement about salt based fertilizers. If you are going to be using full strength chemical fertilizers all the time you will most likely negate the positive effects of most of your benni's. This is not to say that you can't use chemical ferts with benni's, but to get the benefits of both is a balancing act. He is also correct in that tea should NEVER smell bad or nasty - if it does, it has pathogens and anaerobic bacteria growing in it and should not be used. As PuFFnNugg observed many hydro companies will sell you aboslute garbage - so the fact that many nute programs contain benni's and chemical ferts really doesn't mean much.

There is a TREMENDOUS amount of really, really bad info on these sites about this topic. I would second that anyone interesting in learning more about this topic, check out "Teaming With Microbes." The "Compost Tea Brewing Manual" is also a very solid book to get your started on how to make proper aerated compost tea (ACT).

You can also check out SFI's website - they have a lot of good info too:
 
dextr0

dextr0

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would you explain more about to much P being bad.

Phosphorus Matters II – Keeping Phosphorus on Farms
Compost, Fungi, Rehabilitation, Soil Biology, Soil Composition, Soil Conservation — by Marcin Gerwin July 23, 2009

Editor’s Prelude: Peak Phosphorus barely registers alongside it’s more gregarious, attention-getting bigger brother, Peak Oil. Yet, the implications are even more dramatic. While both peaks are associated with massive food shortages, unmitigated Peak Phosphorus would easily win the award for best disaster.

The latest research tells us that Peak Phosphorus is an issue we cannot afford to ignore any more:

… a global production peak of phosphate rock is estimated to occur around 2033. While this may seem in the distant future, there are currently no alternatives on the market today that could replace phosphate rock on any significant scale. New infrastructure and institutional arrangements required could take decades to develop.

While all the world’s farmers require access to phosphorus fertilisers, the major phosphate rock reserves are under the control of a small number of countries including China, Morocco and the US. China recently imposed a 135% export tariff on phosphate rock essentially preventing any from leaving the country. Reserves in the U.S. are calculated to be depleted within 30 years. Morocco currently occupies Western Sahara and its massive phosphate rock reserves, contrary to UN resolutions. – Western Sahara Resource Watch

Keeping Phosphorus on Farms – by Marcin Gerwin (the sequel to ‘Closing the Phosphorus Cycle‘)

“Next to clean water, phosphorus will be one the inexorable limits to human occupancy on this planet” wrote Bill Mollison in Permaculture: A Designers’ Manual more than 20 years ago. It is that important that we design phosphorus recycling into our food systems. Phosphorus is an essential element for growing crops and no porridge, chocolate bar or cherry jam can be made without it.

Mobilizing phosphorus present in the soil

In many soils phosphorus is naturally present in sufficient amounts, however, it may be chemically locked up and not available for plants. Most of agricultural soils in Western Europe and North America are oversupplied with huge amounts of superphosphate fertilizers, which results in binding phosphorus up with other elements so it ends up unused in the soil. In consequence, the concentration of phosphorus may be as high as 750 ppm, while only 45 ppm is necessary for growing grains (2). To determine whether you have a sufficient level of phosphorus in your soil, the surest way is to make a soil test. If the amount of phosphorus seems to be okay, but your plants show signs of phosphorus deficiency (purplish leaves, stunted stems), you may need help from a specially skilled team of phosphorus extractors – fungi. Fungi are decay experts in soils. The enzymes that they secrete allow them to break up lignin, cellulose, chitin shells of insects and bones of animals, which are too difficult to digest for bacteria. A single teaspoon of a healthy soil may contain several meters of fungal hyphae, invisible to the naked eye.

The tips of certain species of fungi have an extremely significant function. The strong acids they produce allow them to literally dissolve rocks and extract phosphorus from them. These fungi can form a mutually beneficial relationship with plants roots and can transport phosphorus to these plants. They are called mycorrhizal fungi.

Mycorrhizal fungi can extend the surface area of tree roots by 700 to 1000 times. They can harvest phosphates at great distances, many meters down and away from the plant and they bring it back through the fungal net, which is called plasmic streaming. Phosphorus is brought to a tree in exchange for sugars created by plants, as fungi don’t have the chlorophyll and the ability to photosynthesize.

Seedlings of trees, shrubs and perennials can be inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi while you grow them in the nursery. Make sure you get the right kind of fungal spores for your plants. You can inoculate roots of existing trees and shrubs by digging holes in a root zone and applying spores of mycorrhizal fungi near the roots. Seeds of annuals and vegetables can be mixed with inoculum as well, however, plants from the cabbage family (Brasicaceae), beets and spinach do not form mycorrhizal associations at all. Instead of buying inoculum in a shop, you can also experiment with making your own mycorrhizal inoculum.

The optimum range for phosphorus uptake by plants is pH 6.0 – 7.5, and on either side of the pH scale phosphorus becomes immobile. A conventional approach would be to adjust pH by adding sulfur in alkaline soils or lime in acidic soils. It can be quite expensive on a larger scale. But suppose you would like to grow an acid soil loving plant, such as Northern highbush blueberry, then what? The optimum pH range for this tasty fruit is as little as 3.5 – 4.8 pH, and it can fail completely when pH is higher. Since phosphorus is immobile at this low pH level, how can this plant grow at all? Well, it can receive phosphorus through partnerships with certain species of mycorrhizal fungi which do well in acid soils and don’t mind low pH when extracting phosphorus.

Mycorrhiza and herbicides

Using herbicides when mycorrhizal fungi are present in the soil may bring unexpected consequences. Fungi can transport more than just nutrients, but also various pesticides. A study in China revealed that mycorrhizal fungi transported a toxic herbicide atrazine to the roots of maize, which was hosting it. A similar thing could have happened on this pasture in Australia. In the foreground: pasture with good management (compost, compost tea and no herbicide), background: after years of using pesticides, trees are left dead or dying.

You could also try to adjust the pH by increasing fungal or bacterial domination in topsoil. You can apply brown organic mulches, such as woodchips and shredded branches, to support fungi and to lower the pH. Or, apply fresh green mulches and aerated compost teas to support bacterial growth and raise the pH slightly above 7. The reason for this is that bacterial slime is alkaline and acids secreted by fungi are, well, acidic and they lower soil pH.

However, some nutrients are available for plants in low pH, while others are available in high pH. The pH of soil should vary from micro-site to micro-site and it is the role of a healthy soil biology to control it. If we leave it to applications of lime or sulfur, the whole biological system will be temporally determined by this input, and the quantity of micro-sites of varying pH will be limited. So, instead of applying minerals in order to mobilize phosphorus by a chemical reaction, you could stimulate growth of a vigorous soil food web that will ensure extraction of essential elements and support their continuous recycling.

Choosing phosphate fertilizer

Why it is necessary to change pH
for some crops

Northern highbush blueberry grows happily only on acidic soils, because it prefers to consume nitrogen in the form of ammonium, rather than in the form of nitrates or nitrites. When pH is neutral or above, then a certain group of bacteria, called nitrite bacteria, starts to convert ammonium to nitrites. Since nitrates are not the favourite choice of menu for the blueberry, they do not absorb nitrogen and wilt. When pH is low, ammonium is plentiful, nitrite bacteria are out of work and blueberries can flourish.

There are many soils around the world that are naturally deficient in phosphorus, such as soils in the Amazon Basin, on Java or in Australia. Others have been damaged by inappropriate farming practices – bare soils were flushed by rains, which washed away phosphorus, they were depleted by overharvesting of crops and their natural soil food webs were destroyed, making it impossible for plants to feed on anything other than artificial fertilizers. While soil food webs can be restored, wherever there is not enough elemental phosphorus present, for any reason, it must be brought back by the farmer. The other option is to wait until mountain-generating processes raise the bottom of the sea, where phosphate fertilizers end up. When the new mountain ranges are formed, the rain will start to wash phosphorus out of the rocks, making it available for plants again. But this will take some time – around 10-15 million years….

For organic gardeners one of the main sources of phosphorus are ground phosphate rocks. Good quality phosphate rock fertilizer should be free of all contaminants such as fluorides, heavy metals or radioactive uranium. It can be applied directly on soil (100 kg or more per hectare) tied to organic matter, mulch, compost and compost teas, to enhance soil biology and enable feeding plants through the activities of bacteria, fungi and other microorganisms. Another way is to incorporate rock phosphate into compost with a fungal dominance, so that fungi will transform rocks into a soluble form, or preparing a special phospho-compost. Inoculating plants with mycorrhizal fungi improves greatly effectiveness of phosphate rock fertilizers.

It has been discovered in Costa Rica, that phosphate fertilizers can be applied on top of the mulch, rather than below it. This idea has been conceived to prevent phosphorus from being bound up in the acid tropical soil. And it worked. Yields of beans rose more than 3 times.

Clay washed out from between layers of phosphate rocks during mining can also be used as a fertilizer. Particles of this clay are surrounded by natural phosphates and it’s called a colloidal phosphate. Thanks to clay the phosphorus is more easily available for plants than in phosphate rocks. It can be used together with manure on compost piles or directly on soil – manure acids will dissolve phosphates, which in turn will stabilize the nitrogen in manure.

Superphosphate fertilizers are made from chemically treated phosphate rocks. They are not recommended for use as they are highly concentrated and reactive. When applied on the field they react with calcium, iron, magnesium and aluminium, creating within seconds compounds that make phosphorus unavailable for plants. They may react also with trace elements, locking them up and causing deficiencies of micronutrients. Superphosphates are water soluble and they can be easily washed away by rains before plants have a chance to assimilate them, which later may cause the eutrophication of lakes and rivers. Not to mention that high concentrations of phosphorus in fertilizers (above 10) are lethal to mycorrhizal fungi . Superphosphates, however, do have their advantage: they were purified and do not contain toxic elements such as uranium. There is a disadvantage, though. The waste product of the purification process is stored in slag heaps, that are sometimes unprotected and, since they contain uranium, they are radioactive. Fluorides leaching from these heaps may also cause groundwater pollution.

Another material that is rich in phosphorus is guano – bird or bat droppings. Bones of fish that are eaten by seabirds contain a lot of phosphates, and as a result seabird guano also contains a high level of phosphorus. Guano has accumulated over centuries on small islands on the Pacific Ocean or on the coast of Chile and Peru, where it was mined in such large quantities that its deposits are now severely depleted. In contrary to phosphate rocks, it is a renewable resource, however, only over a long period. Apart from phosphorus, guano also contains high levels of nitrogen and calcium. It can be fresh, semi-fossilized or fossilized, depending on the source.

Phosphates can also be found in mud from ponds, in freshwater mussels, in fish waste, in algae or in recent volcanic ash. Many plants, such as comfrey, lupine, sweetclovers, nettle or vetches accumulate phosphorus and they can be used as green manure. Note, however, that they don’t produce phosphorus in the way that nitrogen is fixed from the air by legumes. Rather, they just extract phosphorus from one place and you can put it somewhere else, leaving the source with less phosphorus.

Building your own phosphate factory

If you would like to collect phosphorus from your local area, the exciting way to do this is to establish a small bat colony. If there are bats living in your neighbourhood, especially in buildings, you can build a bat house for them. Bats will come to rest there and… they will leave their droppings underneath. You can place a container under the bat house and collect their guano. The additional benefit is that insectivorous bats consume large amounts of moths, mosquitoes, flies, grasshoppers and crickets among many others. They are high-class specialists in insect control – in just one hour a single brown bat can catch 1200 mosquitoes. In fact, they are so effective in eating mosquitoes that in India an establishment of bat colonies around Calcutta was considered as a way of dealing with excessive mosquitoes numbers.

If bats are not your kind of animal, you may consider another type of a phosphate factory – a pigeon house. Pigeons mostly eat seeds, and these are usually rich in phosphorus. Their manure is rich in nitrogen as well, so it could be very useful on farms, and some people in the Middle East still keep them. If you are wondering how the permaculture principle of "every element should serve many functions" could be applied with regards to pigeons, there is one interesting thing that some breeds of pigeons can do: they can carry letters. Harry Potter fans may feel a little disappointed and prefer owls for sending letters, but the advantage of pigeons is that they can do it for real.

The adapted ones
(dextr0s dreams of root grafting)
A small group of plants, which includes lupines and macadamia trees, has developed a unique strategy to adapt to phosphorus-deficient soils. Instead of forming mycorrhizal associations, they create densely clustered roots that enhance phosphorus uptake. These roots received a scientific name of proteoid roots, after the Proteaceae plant family. Despite their unimpressive name, proteoid roots of white lupine have an extraordinary ability: they excrete citrate and in this way increase availability of phosphorus in the root zone. Well, why not call them power roots instead? Or, phosphorus-I’m-coming-to-get-you roots? They deserve a better name.

The intriguing thing about proteoid roots is that plants do not form them when phosphate fertilizers are applied. To the surprise of a farmer, macadamia trees can show signs of phosphorus deficiency even though a significant amount of phosphate fertilizer was added. When phosphorus is present in soil, even in small quantities, these plants grow well by themselves. And, when there really isn’t enough phosphorus, then compost and mulch can be used, instead of phosphate fertilizers.

Protecting phosphorus from being washed away

Phosphorus loss occurs especially on bare, sandy soils, where you have little trees and get heavy rains. While natural systems such as forests can lose 0.1 kg of phosphorus per hectare per year, bare crop systems can lose even 100 kg of phosphorus per hectare in one year. In heavy soils or loams loss is generally very small. Most phosphorus in the environment is in the insoluble form and unlike nitrogen, which can be dissolved in water, it is washed away with soil particles or organic matter.

Since this is known, protecting phosphorus is easy. A good soil structure can be created by adding organic matter and compost. Soil biology can be further improved by brewing compost teas. Together with compost they will add an army of nutrient recyclers to the soil: active bacteria, fungi, flagellates, amoebas, ciliates and beneficial nematodes. These microorganisms will retain phosphorus in their bodies and the functioning of a whole healthy soil food web will allow recycling it. It is also worth mentioning that certain species of bacteria can also dissolve phosphate rocks and they help in converting phosphorus into forms that are edible for plants. A no-dig system can be introduced to prevent erosion and protect soil life, and trees can be planted on at least 30% of land. And it takes mulch, mulch and mulch to protect soil from rain.

Farmers can pull another ace out of their sleeves – charcoal! It is an ancient soil amendment, tried and tested for thousands of years by Indian tribes in the Amazon. They used it with pieces of pottery to create Terra Preta, the black soil, which is still fertile today, an exceptional thing in this region of the world. The porous structure of charcoal provides a great habitat for microbes, it persists in the soil for a very long time and it retains nutrients, including phosphorus. Charcoal (or biochar) can be made not only from wood, but also from agricultural residues, such as rice husks.

To slow down run-off in the mountainous areas, crops can be grown between rows of trees planted on contour, in an alley cropping system. These hedgerows can be planted with nitrogen-fixing trees, or other fast growing species. Prunings from the hedgerows can provide much needed mulch for crops.

Instead of trees, vetiver grass can also be planted on contour. Its roots grow 3-4 meters deep and it can reduce erosion by as much as 90% and recharge ground water. Over the years, on steep slopes, natural terraces will form behind the hedge, as soil will accumulate there. A vetiver grass system is easy to establish and requires little maintenance. It can also be used for stabilizing road embankments, river banks, preventing landslides and for wastewater purification.

Fair share

Some say that free market is the most efficient way of allocating scarce resources. This may be true. If you are a farmer from Europe then letting the invisible hand of the market allocate the remaining reserves of phosphate rocks could be no problem for you. Let the most competitive ones win! However, if you own half an acre of land somewhere in Sub-Saharan Africa, your soil is poor in nutrients, yields are low and you hardly make ends meet, then you can easily notice a simple thing – with free market rules, scarce resources don’t go to those who need them most. They go to those who can pay most.

In 2008 some 82 million people were added to our planet. The largest part of this population growth took place in the South: in Asia, Africa and in South America. All these young people, a population four times larger than the population of New York, will need food, water, clothes and a place to live. They will need land where crops will be grown for them. And to grow these crops many nutrients are essential. One of them is phosphorus. Since the reserves of phosphate rocks are scarce who will get it?

Bill Mollison again:

Of all the elements of critical importance to plants, phosphorus is the least commonly found, and sources are rarely available locally. Of all the phosphate fertilizers used, Europe and North America consume 75% (and get least return from this input because of overuse, over-irrigation, and poor soil economy). If we really wanted to reduce world famine, the redirection of these surplus phosphates to the poor soils of Africa and India (or any other food-deficient area), would do it. Forget about miracle plants; we need global ethics for all such essential resources.

It is possible to calculate a fair share of the remaining phosphate rocks for each country, depending on the soil’s condition and number of population. And that’s exactly what should be done. A global agreement is necessary for sharing the last phosphate rock reserves in a common sense way.

Our current industrial agricultural system and the global economy that supports it are inherently unsustainable. Extracting a limited resource, such as phosphorus, and sending it to landfills or dumping it in the ocean doesn’t make much sense. Sooner or later reserves of phosphate rocks will become depleted, then what? There is some back up in the form of deposits on the continental shelves and on seamounts in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans , but the cost of mining it can be very high and even if industrial farmers were able to buy them, what about farmers from Botswana? What about farmers from Madagascar or India? What will be the cost of food, when the price of fertilizers goes up? Recycling phosphorus is just common sense and it seems inevitable, if we wish to continue living on Earth. It means that the exchange of our entire food supply and waste management systems is inevitable as well. Honorable presidents, distinguished prime ministers, sooner or later we will have to do it.

Why wait till the industrial food supply system collapses from lack of phosphate fertilizers or because they are too expensive to buy? Farming the way nature does provides not only healthy soils and good yields, but also nutritious food, flavoursome food. A juicy tomato with its characteristic, charming smell, instead of a watery, tasteless, red ’something’. Our economy can be more local, so that it will be possible to easily recycle nutrients, and as a result people will be more connected. These changes can be for better, not for worse.

If we manage to close the phosphorus cycle in our countries soon enough, we will have plenty of phosphate rocks left. We will be able to use them for restoring degraded lands, for planting trees, and greening our planet once again.

http://permaculture.org.au/2009/07/23/phosphorus-matters-ii-keeping-phosphorus-on-farms/
I recommend going to the original page it has cool pix to go with it. Hope this helps.

Dextr0
 
J

Jalisco Kid

Guest
I agree that using salts in hydro is a harsh environment but by not using bennies only one time I have gotten crap in my rez. Keeping your P below 70-75 ppm and feeding them carbs works for me. I have been in hydro for over 10 years straight and only caught something that one time. JK
 
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PuFFnNugg

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What I'm confused about that statement JK. Are you saying that you don't use bennies and have no problem with root disease? Or are you saying your bennies are fine as long as your P is below 70-75, and provide food source?
I would agree with either statement just wondering which it is. I have had no problems with root disease without bennies. I would also have to conclude that even with chemical ferts and too high of P that my benefials are still alive and well.

Could I also ask you what your doing to supply carbs in Hydro Jk? I always use Sweet because I needed the Mg n S anyway. But mixing my own salts now, want to just brew some molasses w/ a kelp/humic mix. Don't now if I'm gonna clog stuff up though or make a mess though. Also don't know ratios. Like to pick your brain.
 
Mr.Sputnik

Mr.Sputnik

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Salt based ferts killing bennies is a crock. where do you guys get info like this? I run flora nova with bennies and they survive just fine in dirt and hydro. On a molecular level there's no difference between a chemical nitrogen and organic notrogen molecule. Good luck running organic ferts or a "tea" in a hydro system. If the bacteria goes anaerobic so quick, then why are there numerous companies that sell liquid bennies? compost tea that's not aerated before you buy it? I know the dirt smell of a compost tea and it doesn't smell anything like sticking your face into some mycomadness or roots oregonism. I just recently started letting the bacteria sit for a few days, I use to use it right after mixing it up. So what, throw an airstone into the pitcher? thanks for the tip.

I like using fresh molasses and bennies in a hydro system. I've had a container of sweet go bad on me before (bad bacteria). add the bennies right to the medium in it's powder form and add the molasses to the res (dilute it with warm water before adding it to the res to ensure it disolves).
 
Blaze

Blaze

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263
Salt based ferts killing bennies is a crock. where do you guys get info like this?.

Let's see...

Peer review sicnetific studies.

Agriculture text books.

PhD's who've spent their lives studying this topic, such as Dr. Inghram.

Side by side tests using sap meters to test nutrient uptake.

Observing teas under a microscope.

Ya know... All that "science" stuff that most growers don't seem to care much about.

You can use salt based ferts with benni's, but too much does kill them and/or inhibit them. Saying otherwise is like trying to claim the sky is red or that plants don't need water to grow. Excess salt based ferts killing benni's is a proven, scientific fact, and has been confirmed by numerous reliable sources. Get your PPM's of certain elements too high and they will kill your benni's, period.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but just because a hydro company sells something and makes wild claims about it, doesn't mean jack shit. They are there to make money and will make unsubstantiated claims to do so. If you are relying on hydro companies for your info you are going to be grossly mis-informed about pretty much everything. I'd say about 90% of what hydro companies claim their products do is pure BS with absolutely no basis in fact or reality. They are by far the least reliable source for information.

Also how do you even know that your benni's are working in your hydro set up? Have you done side by side trials to confirm they did benefit your plants? Have you been able to quantify growth and yield with and with out the bennis? Have you observed their acitvity under a scope to confirm they are still alive? Have you done any sap testing on your plants to confirm they increased nutrient uptake like they should? If you have, then great - you've got a good system going and have figured out the proper balance.

IME most people just do random stuff in their grows, then declare that it worked, without having any way to quantify their results and do not understand the science behind what they are doing. I know that my ACT works and that I have a proper balance of salts because I've been able to scientifically prove it - something that most people can't claim.
 
Mr.Sputnik

Mr.Sputnik

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Get your PPM's of certain elements too high and they will kill your benni's, period.

Blaze, I'll agree with you on that. You CAN run salt based ferts and bennies but you'll need to back down the PPM on your nute mix a bit. I run my hydro on the weaker side.

I have done a side by side test and the bennies DESTROYED the vegetative growth compared to the non benny. the benny plants were litteraly twice the size.

I have not looked at my medium or my res mix under a scope, nor have I taken sap samples. I ran a dead res with peroxide for one set and the res mix for the other set was bennies and molasses. I started running an enzyme after 1 of the plants got pythium from clogging it's drain with roots.

I'm sure salt ferts will kill bennies at some point, but what's that point? Is it 1 drop in a 100 gallon res? 1 gallon in a 100 gallon res?

I mix the flora nova at somewhere between 1-2ml per gallon and the bennies thrive. Either that or the bennies have released some sort of magic growth juice for my plants.

Blaze, I think we agree. Especially on the fact that 90% of the grow store stuff is pure CRAP!!!
 
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Blaze

Blaze

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Sounds like we're on the same page; glad to hear you've got a good balance going on your set up and actually did some side by side test to confirm results =)

Now someone just needs to figure out what the exact PPM's that kill bennies is. I've seen various numbers from science based sources, but they tend to vary a lot. For example the "Compost Tea Brewing Manual" has some info on supposed acceptable ppms of certain elements, but the numbers are so ridiculous low that there is no way they could be accurate IMO. At this point I don't think anyone knows exactly what the numbers are, at least as far as I've seen. Also it would seem that certain bennies are more easily killed by high ppms than others, which makes it even less clear cut.

I do have a buddy who's been doing some experiments to try to get a better handle on the exact numbers. He's been testing various ppm's and nutrient formulas in conjunction with bennies, and then observing their activity under a scope to try and figure out what levels really are indeed too high. He is a professional plant scientist so he knows his stuff. Hopefully he will shed some light on this topic for all of us.
 
BUBBAKUSHKID

BUBBAKUSHKID

149
28
wow..very interesting.
i have been using piranah,voodoo,& zho,i have a pint of greatwhite unopened.
i started using a.n. a few months ago, & i was kinda tripin on how they want u 2 use piranah,vodoo& tarantula..cuz u gota understand i was taught hyro about 10 years ago.
& bennies were never a part of any regime..i sayd to my partner..wtf, we never used this shit in the past??? why start now..??i understand in soil how u need a symbiotic relationship of soil ,fungi,sugar,bacteria....... but in hydro we use chemys that r absorbed into the roots.....i always thaught we wanted are grows 2 b somewhat sterilie??
& the fact that we used h2o2..??

we started using aquashield when we went w/ the bucket sytem to keep the pythium down, stoped the peroxide.... but thise got removed & the ebb/flow was put back in.

ne way i use bennies now cuz i just go w/ the a.n. recipie & they say to use em in weeks 1&2 of bloom ...i followed there recipie & got over 3 lbs on my 4x8..
this run looks even more promising...so i aint gona change any thing 4 now..
allthough i skipped out on the tarantula tghis grow..\
 
J

Jalisco Kid

Guest
I had to go to a shop to have a pen replaced. While waiting on the salesman I noticed a jar of Great white that sold for $230 for 2 LBs. You guys need to source your bennies from ag shops. or at least go to bio- organics and spend 85 bucks for 3 lbs. You can easily spend 5 bucks a lb in bulk. Just make sure you are buying quality and not buying strands of the stuff.
I have had some manufactures tell me I am wasting my time buying their product. The owner of bio- organics believes if you go over 60 ppm you really damage the herd. I run around 70 ppm and have taken stained slides and my roots are protected. They may not send out mycillium 20 miles but my roots are protected.

I have never ever seen on paper or in practice that AN's Tarantula does anything for the plant.
Suerte JK
 
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