Big Bud versus Big Up--What's the difference?

Seamaiden · Aug 23, 2010

Thread title pretty much says it all. It has been suggested that I could save some money and still achieve comparable results if I use Humboldt Nutrients' Big Up instead of Advanced Nutrients' Big Bud (powder). So when I visited the sucky local hydro shop last week I decided I'd pick up some Big Up (powder) and see if I can do a comparison run.

But in checking out the HN Big Up, I noticed an awful lot of things it didn't have listed, such as all the amino acids the AN Big Bud does have listed. So I looked over at their AN section, and all they have is liquid Big Bud. Of course I hadn't brought my container of Big Bud with me so it was impossible to do a direct label comparison right there, but I did note that the liquid's label looked an awful lot like HN's Big Up label.

So, what gives? Are they truly comparable products? Or has AN changed a product yet again, that I'll never be able to find again? Or has HN got stuff in the Big Up that they don't have listed?

My head! :hunter:

leadsled · Aug 23, 2010

I never got to do a side by side or test out the big up.
Was told the same thing. The big up i had went bad before I gave it a shot. Pretty sure the big up still has the aminos, just not on label. (contains non plant food ingredients)

I used some of there other products when they first came out. I gave up on HN when it did not deliver as promised. Still got some unopen/unused hn. Also had problems with bad batches.

Heres what the containers I got state:
old big up container states: 0-39-25, derived from ascophyllum nodosum, monopotassium phosphate, magnesium sulfate, amino acids, and organic acids.

new container: 0-33-23. Derived from monopotassium phosphate, ascophyllum nodosum. (also contains non plant food ingredients)

big bud 0-10-40
Derived from:
magnesium phosphate, magnesium sulphate, potassium phosphate, citric acid, (bunch of l-aMINOS listed)

if you test it out please share the results. Big bud powder has always worked the best for me. But I am game to a more cost effective solution.

noone88 · Aug 23, 2010

AN changed their Big Bud formula. Supposedly they took out the aminos as well as changed the PK ratios.

Big Up contains the aminos.

I've used both. Hard to do a comparison since Big Up is used the last 2 weeks of bloom and Big Bud is used during mid-bloom.

The only thing I noticed is that the Big Up application rate on the label is pretty ridiculous.

Seamaiden · Aug 23, 2010

It's what... a half teaspoon/gallon? I got a powdered product, both are downstairs. I got the AN BB because a friend of mine said she has always used it, and her buds are very budly in their budliness (if you get what I'm saying), not to mention frosty.

I guess I'll have to get a pic of the AN BB, I may have a dinosaur. Can't be arsed to do it at this moment, but I can go here: http://www.aapfco.org/metals.htm
And it lists nothing regarding amino acids there that I can find. It's all metals.

Either relegated to Liquid Karma for the aminos (got no quarrel with that, I suppose) or source 'em myself if there's nothing else that provides them. But it's not just throwing stuff at a thing, that's what concerns me. I'm sure someone else has or is playing with this as well.

Huge difference in price. >$25 for AN Big Bud, <$10 for HN BU.

Surfr · Aug 24, 2010

Isn't Big Up only for the first couple weeks in flowering??

Seamaiden · Aug 24, 2010

First week or two (I read it last night), then the last two weeks. Big Bud doesn't have those sort of directions on the label, or at least not the one I have. After reading the directions on the Big Up I see what noone meant about the crazy application rates.

noone88 · Aug 24, 2010

Big Up used in the first 1-2 weeks is like AN's bud ignitor/bud blood.

The order in which you're suppose to use the bloom enhancers:

Humboldt Nutrients
Big Up -> Ginormous -> Big Up

AN
Bud Ignitor -> Big Bud -> Overdrive

dusty · Aug 24, 2010

Ya'll should just buy a sack of Mono Potassium Phosphate, Epsom Salt , Amino Acid (Plant Based) concentrate and do your own "bloom booster" at home! See how much a 50 LB sack of MKP costs and then see how much you pay for 2.25 LBS of your "BOOSTER" LOL

http://www.tagrow.com/products/amino-up.htm

Radio_Dread · Aug 24, 2010

i must have an older Big Bud container then, because my powder container states all the non plant foods (amino acids) on the label. i use it every run with great success.

budboy299 · Aug 24, 2010

Dry Big Bud

budboy299 · Aug 24, 2010

liquid big bud

Seamaiden · Aug 24, 2010

Budboy, that's the powdered Big Bud I have, and that's the label of the liquid I saw. Is that a current label for the powdered BB?

Noone, I've gotta admit, I don't follow nutrient lines very closely. I started out with MG, then quickly moved to organics, and only in the past few months have begun to explore using some chemical salt nutrients and only this run trying other additives. What you're saying, then, is at least according to the manufacturers, if I'm going to use the one product, then I'm supposed to use all three in conjunction? How bad is it if I don't? (Because I likely won't.)

dusty said:
Ya'll should just buy a sack of Mono Potassium Phosphate, Epsom Salt , Amino Acid (Plant Based) concentrate and do your own "bloom booster" at home! See how much a 50 LB sack of MKP costs and then see how much you pay for 2.25 LBS of your "BOOSTER" LOL

http://www.tagrow.com/products/amino-up.htm

How would I go about making a mixed, single application product from that, though? If there's a recipe I could follow then no problem, I'm up save as much $$ as I can. I just wouldn't know how to approach using those products except separately, adds steps, yada yada.

I don't immediately see anything on pricing, sourcing.

leadsled · Aug 26, 2010

dusty said:
Ya'll should just buy a sack of Mono Potassium Phosphate, Epsom Salt , Amino Acid (Plant Based) concentrate and do your own "bloom booster" at home! See how much a 50 LB sack of MKP costs and then see how much you pay for 2.25 LBS of your "BOOSTER" LOL

http://www.tagrow.com/products/amino-up.htm

I knew there was more to it than epsom salts :)

Cmon, dusty share some info on a recipe.

1 part each etc. how much aminos, have you used those products.

I am tired of the being overcharged for diluted products.

dusty · Aug 31, 2010

Those are the tools, it isn't hard to put the formula together when you check out the label and do some comparisons

Mike_Oriza · Sep 1, 2010

More on Mono Potassium Phosphate

Great info Dusty-

I had just been researching making my own bud enhancer, which is how I ended up here, and yes you are right, the ingredients are incredibly cheap. In fact it is cheaper to buy 50 lbs of mono potassium phosphate (MPK) than to purchase a 1 lb jar of your favorite bud blaster. In fact one of them, Grotech, is pure MPK for $50. A $50 lb sack here is $48. Wow, nice profit.

But there's a hitch. The AN Big Bud label just says "potassium phosphate", but doesn't say which form it is in ( mono, di,or tri potassium phosphate).

Mono potassium phosphate (MPK) has almost twice as much phosphorus as potassium (00-52-34), but AN's "Big Bud" Phosporous/Potassium ratio is reversed, 0-1-3. All the AN info I've read says it is very important to use much more K than P for flowering. You would need to use something else along with the MPK to raise the K levels. MPK has a PH of 4.8 for a 3% solution.

Here's some info, pH solubility etc., on MPK from a Chinese website where a lot of these chemical are coming from:

http://grandchemicals.en.made-in-china.com/product/hMLnqjyvreVm/China-Mono-Potassium-Phosphate.html

The tripotassium phosphate form has twice as much K as P (032-65), and it is apparently sometimes used in fertilizers, but it is super alkaline, like about 11-12 for just a 1% solution. It would need to be pH balanced. The only pH down I'm familiar with is phosphoric acid, which would add back in the P. More info:

http://vivienyang311.en.made-in-chi...tassium-Phosphate-Anhydrous-ATKP-98-min-.html

There is the possiblity of using soluble potassium sulphate (50%P, 17%S) along with MPK to raise the K percentage. From what I am reading it's pH is 7. It's also considered an "organic" fertilizer as it is mined from old lake deposits.

My question is how do you go about calculating how much potassium sulfate to add to the MPK to reach the 0-1-3 ratio? Is NPK based on weight or moles? The unit weights of these two compounds would obviously be quite different. Then there is the pH adjustment. Looks like I might have to revisit my high school chemistry texts, but I'd rather let my computer do it.

Does anybody know of a free website that can do these calculations?

Seamaiden · Sep 1, 2010

Workin' on it, hopefully a friend more mathematically inclined than I will be able to help with the formulation. And if I didn't already, let me thank you for sharing that information. It's not always easily found, especially if you don't know what you should be looking for.

Casper13 · Sep 1, 2010

as a store hydro store owner....... dealing with advanced nutrients is a FREAKING NIGHTMARE!!! THEY ARE STRAIGHT UP FULL OF SHIT! We won't EVER carry their products again!They way over charge us retail stores as well and then leave us to justify why their crap is sooo expensive!

Seamaiden · Sep 2, 2010

That's interesting. I have a new local hydro. One guy is the "retail" guy, doesn't know shit about growing any sort of plant whatsoever. The "grow" guy doesn't know shit and just pushes AN products. And Superthrive. He tried to tell me that the hormones in Superthrive are listed as metals. I said, "Um, hormones are proteins, amino acids? They're not metals and won't be listed." Do ya think he listened to lil ol' me, though? Oh hell no!

Either way, their prices are out-fucking-RAGEOUS and the only reason I've purchased anything from them is because I was in a desperate situation. For instance, my local garden center and the local Raley's both sell Fox Farms, I use Big Bloom. Just under $43@both outfits. Wanna try just under $55 at the local hydro? I told them right away that they had direct competition that was selling the same product at a much reduced price, told them where and for how much. Do you think they readjusted to at least match or come into the range of these other places?

Guess who gets more of my business.

dusty · Sep 3, 2010

you need to make sure that you divide the P and K numbers to actually come up with the correct values in the fertilizer..

Seamaiden · Sep 3, 2010

How about putting those through the HydroBuddy program? I'm finding two different products called AminoUp, too. One's out of China. Gotta see if I can get a certain someone to source the aminos, he's already set me up with the MKP & MAP. I hit my hempy girls with one of them (came home in ziplocs, not marked with anything more than dosing rates, whoops!) and oh my GOODNESS! Talk about spurring bud-set!

Big Bud versus Big Up--What's the difference?

Big Bud versus Big Up--What's the difference?

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