bottled nutrients

[CT Guy]

Compared to some of the other forums I participate in, I've noticed this one is really heavy on bottled nutes. Since we're talking about organic growing here, it would be nice to move away from using bottled nutrient products in general, plus they tend to be overpriced. I think sometimes that we forget that cannabis is just a plant in regards to it's nutrient requirements, and think we need all these fancy labels with their crazy claims.

I'm a firm believer that if you get the soil right (meaning your soil mix contains the nutrients) and have good active biology in place, then bottled nutes are unnecessary. I realize that they may be more convenient, but I think organics should require a bit more time and knowledge than chemicals, as we get to know our plants more intimately, as we create the perfect environment for them to be happy.

I also think that bottled nutrients fit more with a chemical paradigm, supporting the concept that we're in charge of the plant and it's feeding cycle. In reality, with an organic system the plant is in charge. Based on the exudates it releases through it's roots (carbons, sugars, carbohydrates), it selects for which sets of organisms it feeds, who in turn cycle the nutrients for the plant. When you put our organic fertilizer, you're not feeding your plant, but rather feeding the microbes, which is why they're so important.

I spend my money on my soil mix, let it cook, and get it as nutrient rich and biologically active as possible. The only products I buy are:

Dynagrow's ProTekt - it's an excellent silica source and used as a foliar spray 1x a week in conjunction with neem oil (best source is neemresource.com) and an organic aloe vera gel (for saponin content, best source is online, I can look it up if anyone is interested).

Nature's essence seaweed extract powder from simplici-tea.com. Comes out to something like $0.14/gal and is the best type of seaweed (cold water processed ascophyllum nodosum). I use it as a foliar and soil drench in conjunction with Tera Vita LC-10+7

Tera Vita LC-10+7 liquid humic acid from simplici-tea.com. Advantage of this humic acid is that it's extracted properly (some humic acids use harsh chemicals that can affect the enzymatic qualities of your final product), and it's CHELATED, meaning it's already bonded with 7 essential minerals that your plant needs, and in the proper amounts.

I'm looking into jasmonic acid and been reading a bunch of studies on that, as it seems to have huge increases in trichome density and production. It's a "natural" but possibly not "organic" product (I'm referring to a commercial product called "Jaz Spray"). It's sprayed 1X about 3-4 weeks into flower at 1/4 strength and that's it. There's better forms of jasmonic acid, but they require a researcher's permit/explanation in order to order them. I can post more on this as I learn if people are interested, though there is a thread already on another IC website under cannabis botany and advanced growing science. If you're into research-validated techniques and studies, this is a good place to check out.

Okay, so I'm hoping this post can generate some discussion. There's so many products/nutrients you can pick up from a local farm/feed store and different fermented plant extracts and aerated compost teas that you can make yourself.

I'd like to see people moving away from spending all this money on bottled nutes, but that's just my 2 cents.

Thought I'd see what others thought though.

Cheers,
CT

 

[Mr.Newcastle]

Have you tried the B Vitamin small bottle, liquid nute? I ask you because it says its organic. The label is green, I don't have the name in front of me. I just picked it up for first time. Peace.

 

[SmokeyPipes]

I've found that since using Ancient Forest Alaska Humus soil to be a great amendment in my soil mix and teas!!

 

[CT Guy]

Read something on the superthrive and how it wasn't very effective in regards to plants needs for B vitamins and uptake. Would have to try and find the info, but I thought it basically debunked the idea of feeding B vitamins to your plants....

 

[CT Guy]

I've found that since using Ancient Forest Alaska Humus soil to be a great amendment in my soil mix and teas!!

Yeah, I have access to a bunch of it from another supplier (Denali Gold) and it's definitely better than some of the other commercial composts out there. I've done a fair bit of microscope testing with it. Tends to be more bacterial and lacking a lot of fungal growth. If you mix in a bit of oat flour or baby oatmeal about 3-5 days before brewing you'll get increased fungal activity and more bacterial feeding nematodes. I'd recommend some good EWC (preferably homemade) as up to 20% of your mix. I went with simplici-tea's fungal compost as 25% of mine because I was able to get it cheap and it's always tested more biologically active than the Alaska Humus based on the microscopy stuff I've done. However, if I had access to a good EWC source I would have incorporated it as well.

 

[KAL EL]

I make a super soil and basically water only the entire grow on some organic grows.
I love hydro though, so I use pure organic bottled nutes in my hempys.

 

[Mr.Newcastle]

Read something on the superthrive and how it wasn't very effective in regards to plants needs for B vitamins and uptake. Would have to try and find the info, but I thought it basically debunked the idea of feeding B vitamins to your plants....

When I ran AN, the only survivor when I jumped ship was B-52. Vegging plants to the eye seemed happier when I brought the B-52 back. But returned it every time because it went bad. So just used this organic small bottle, and used it all, so going to take some time away from B vitamin. Hope you are right, and I should know in a week. Peace.

 

[CT Guy]

When I ran AN, the only survivor when I jumped ship was B-52. Vegging plants to the eye seemed happier when I brought the B-52 back. But returned it every time because it went bad. So just used this organic small bottle, and used it all, so going to take some time away from B vitamin. Hope you are right, and I should know in a week. Peace.

Well I wrote that post from memory, I can't vouch for it. I have to go back and look when I have more time (I'm super busy at work this week). Good luck though!

 

[Mr.Newcastle]

Well I wrote that post from memory, I can't vouch for it. I have to go back and look when I have more time (I'm super busy at work this week). Good luck though!

I cant afford any for some time, so it just worked out this way. Im sure they will be fine regardless. Other factors much more important to her peaking stand in my way anyhow. Maybe Ill go get her a white pony as a gift, and in return she will respect and love her Daddy. Lol. Peace.

 

[Taedon83]

For bugs and mildew i use: full strength bacterial compost tea sprayed in veg every 3-4 days 3X in between I use einstein oil(i'm sure any neem would work) I'm really interested in the saponins from the aloe vera gel. I used to use organocide and SM-90. Both are great products but expensive and my new combo works just as good.

I really like the idea of using a brewed supersoil(subs) and then innoculating with compost teas at the different stages... bacterial for veg and early flower, fungal dominate teas later in flower and then I'm still learning about protazoa and nematode dominate teas and when they get used.

For silica I like Diatomaceous Earth as it prevents bugs in addition to adding silica. Silica from my knowledge isn't as important in soil as it is in Hydro.
I'm reallyinterested in the humic acid you mentioned.

After having used all the bottled nutrient lines I must say that brewing a tea and feeding it has to be one of the most satifying things for your time and financial budgets. Mother Earths Tea recipe's seem to be a great starting point

 

[ookiimata]

Can I get your thoughts on the EM liquids, CT? I'm considering buying a bottle of that and using it in soil watering as well as for bokashi. I'm working my way through the Organic Fanatic thread on IC Mag because I think I remember it being discussed on there, but I haven't come across it yet (so much great info I end up pouring through each post instead of scanning for it).

Your info over there about the necessity for proper oxygen/liter when brewing compost tea was very helpful to me as well. I found and bookmarked your site after reading that info.

 

[CT Guy]

Can I get your thoughts on the EM liquids, CT? I'm considering buying a bottle of that and using it in soil watering as well as for bokashi. I'm working my way through the Organic Fanatic thread on IC Mag because I think I remember it being discussed on there, but I haven't come across it yet (so much great info I end up pouring through each post instead of scanning for it).

Your info over there about the necessity for proper oxygen/liter when brewing compost tea was very helpful to me as well. I found and bookmarked your site after reading that info.

I think EM is great, though I can't say I've used it personally. Microbeman described it to me as the sort of the yin yang balance to aerobic microbes (ACT). It has so many uses, ranging from laundry detergent to plant health to human consumption. I know Microbeman from that site personally and he makes some for him and his pets to consume on a regular basis. I'd send him or Clackamas Coot a PM for more info., as they have more experience in that than me.

 

[CT Guy]

For bugs and mildew i use: full strength bacterial compost tea sprayed in veg every 3-4 days 3X in between I use einstein oil(i'm sure any neem would work) I'm really interested in the saponins from the aloe vera gel. I used to use organocide and SM-90. Both are great products but expensive and my new combo works just as good.

I really like the idea of using a brewed supersoil(subs) and then innoculating with compost teas at the different stages... bacterial for veg and early flower, fungal dominate teas later in flower and then I'm still learning about protazoa and nematode dominate teas and when they get used.

For silica I like Diatomaceous Earth as it prevents bugs in addition to adding silica. Silica from my knowledge isn't as important in soil as it is in Hydro.
I'm reallyinterested in the humic acid you mentioned.

After having used all the bottled nutrient lines I must say that brewing a tea and feeding it has to be one of the most satifying things for your time and financial budgets. Mother Earths Tea recipe's seem to be a great starting point

I hear you on the teas, it is way more satisfying than pouring something out of an overpriced bottle.

I don't think you need a "bacterial" tea or a "fungal" tea, and nematodes don't even like a liquid medium. You can adjust your tea in regards to which organisms dominate, just by changing your brewing time.

Personally, I'd make a diverse, highly populated compost tea, with all the organisms present in high numbers, and then let the plant select for what organisms it wants in the rhizosphere based on the exudates it's putting out. With organics, the plant is in charge of the feeding, not us. I can expand on this, or even give you pointers on how to increase certain sets of organisms, based on the microscope work I've done, but I've been working a trade show all day and am about to pass out. Let me know if you have any questions about what I'm alluding to and I can post more info.

Cheers,
CT

 

[gooey]

very interesting talk...CT for a simple tea for a newb brewer...if i am not able to acess the things you use what woul you go with? I was gonna go with AN Mother earth tea....however i am not sure now lol...peace n puffs

 

[Seamaiden]

Can I get your thoughts on the EM liquids, CT? I'm considering buying a bottle of that and using it in soil watering as well as for bokashi. I'm working my way through the Organic Fanatic thread on IC Mag because I think I remember it being discussed on there, but I haven't come across it yet (so much great info I end up pouring through each post instead of scanning for it).

Your info over there about the necessity for proper oxygen/liter when brewing compost tea was very helpful to me as well. I found and bookmarked your site after reading that info.

Heh, and now for something that will add to the confusion. Linda Chalker-Scott has this to say about using compost teas (AACTs/aerated compost teas) as an effective alternative to pesticides.

There are four parts to her series on compost teas, I'm quoting the first two but also linking the pdf's because they're easier to read.

Compost Teas: Part 1

Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University
The Myth of Compost Tea:
"Compost tea is an effective alternative to traditional pesticides"

The Myth
Well, maybe it’s too early to call this one a myth. Let’s just say (to paraphrase Mark Twain) that news of its effectiveness has been greatly exaggerated. What troubles me is the speed at which this statement has been accepted as a demonstrable fact, when in truth there are only a handful of peer-reviewed publications on compost teas or extracts. There are, however, a number of articles published in popular magazines (such as Biocycle), but such articles are not subject to peer review and are considered to be “gray literature” by the scientific community.

Compost teas and extracts are traditionally used as liquid organic fertilizers, but recently have been touted as powerful antimicrobial agents capable of combating pathogens associated with foliar and fruit diseases.

Anecdotal evidence abounds, but controlled, replicable experiments do not. A quick search of the Internet revealed that most of the websites containing the phrase “compost tea” are .com sites: most are selling something. The few .edu sites that do exist are cautious in regard to the miraculous properties associated with compost teas.

The Reality
One of the biggest problems with compost, and by extension teas and extracts, is the high variability among composts from different sources as well as different batches. Before we can attribute any benefit to a specific compost or compost tea, the following criteria must be defined:
• What organic material is in the compost?
• What are the chemical properties of the compost (%N, pH, etc.)?
• What are the active ingredients? Are they chemical agents (allelopathic compounds)? Are they beneficial microbes?

With the variability that exists among batches of compost tea, it is difficult to interpret results in any scientifically meaningful way. Some compost teas apparently contain large numbers of beneficial microbes that compete for space on leaves and fruits, denying pathogens space to colonize. Others apparently contain antimicrobial chemical compounds produced through decomposition and inhibit pathogen growth. But in the peer-reviewed literature, the only article I was able to find on field-tested compost tea reported no difference in disease control between compost tea and water.

We are currently conducting research on the effectiveness of compost tea in alleviating cherry blossom brown rot at the Washington Park Arboretum in Seattle. At the end of the experiment, we will be able to report results that will either support or reject the hypothesis that our specific compost tea prevents cherry blossom brown rot. Although our study is not characterizing the compost tea (e.g. what its chemical properties are), we will be able to recommend what direction future research should take.

In addition to the fuzzy science that accompanies compost tea usage, I am also very concerned with the potential high nutrient load when such teas are used as fertilizer. Unlike compost used for mulch, which provides a slow release of nutrients, compost teas most certainly add increased levels of nitrogen, potassium, and other minerals all at once. It is unlikely that these are completely absorbed by the plants and instead may contribute to the eutrophication of watersheds.

The Bottom Line
• Properly composted organic material makes a wonderful mulch
• Compost teas have not been suitably characterized, nor have their purported benefits been validated scientifically
• Compost teas can be overused and potentially contribute to ground water pollution

A recent article in a weekly paper I receive suggested that we (at the University of Washington) “need to be more cutting edge with our horticultural practices.” As an academic and a horticultural scientist I agree completely, but practices need to be validated through the scientific process before they can be recommended.
For more information, please visit Dr. Chalker-Scott’s web page at http://www.theinformedgardener.com.

Compost Teas: Part 2

Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University
The Myth of Compost Tea Revisited:
"Aerobically-brewed compost tea suppresses disease"

The Myth
It’s been over two years since I first addressed the use of compost tea as a disease suppressor (this column can be accessed through the archives at the website below). At that time, I was concerned about the lack of scientific data documenting the success of compost teas, especially aerobic teas, in disease control. As this topic continues to generate more inquiries than any of my other columns, I thought it was time to look at the literature to see what’s been added since April 2001, and also to summarize the results of our pilot study performed that same year.

The popular press and the internet have exploded with kudos for aerated compost tea as a disease control agent. There are well over 4000 dot-com hits on the Google search engine, compared with only 1900 two years ago. Numerous magazine and newspaper articles have featured compost teas as environmentally-friendly alternatives to chemical pesticides, claiming reduced run-off into aquatic systems among other
benefits.

The Reality
Once again I searched the scientific literature using various combinations of the words “compost”, “tea”, “leachate”, “extract” and “disease”. The UW search engine I use contains all the life science-related databases such as Agricola, Water Resources, Biosis, etc.

I limited my review to scientific journals, and books published through scientific organizations and academic publishers. I excluded the 13 articles in Biocycle, Arbor Age, and IPM Practitioner; they, like B&B and other trade journals, are not scientifically reviewed. There were published abstracts from scientific meetings which I did not include for the same reason. Peer review is critical to the scientific community, as it allows other researchers in the field to examine manuscripts before they are published.

When an article appears in a peer-reviewed journal, it means the methods, results, and conclusions were found to be scientifically viable by objective outside scientists.

Compost: Eighteen articles discussed disease suppressing properties of composts (especially those containing bark); researchers have found them effective in suppressing soil diseases such as Colletotrichum orbiculare (anthracnose), Fusarium oxysporum (wilt) and F. solani, Phytophthora cinnamomi and P. cactorum, Plasmodiophora brassicae (clubroot), Pseudomonas syringae, Pythium ultimum and P. aphanidermatum (damping-off disease), Sclerotinia minor, Sclerotium rolfsii (southern
blight), Sepedonium spp. and Verticillium fungicola. Beneficial microorganisms colonizing the compost, inhibition from passive leaching through the compost on site, and reduced splash dispersal of pathogens from mulch compared to bare soil were identified respectively as the biological, chemical, and/or physical mechanisms responsible for disease suppression. (Just searching for “compost” and “disease
suppression” through these databases netted 100 or so articles. It’s clear that compost used as mulch has documented abilities to suppress soil-borne disease organisms.)

Non-aerated compost tea (NCT): Over a dozen articles looked at the effects of non-aerated compost extracts. Work in Germany in the 1980’s reported success in controlling Plasmopara viticola, Uncinula necator, and Pseudopeziza tracheiphila on grape; Phytophthora infestans on potato and tomato; Erysiphe spp. on barley and sugar beet; Sphaerotheca fuliginea on cucumber; and Botrytis cinerea on strawberry
and bean, but these results have apparently not been repeated elsewhere. (Unfortunately, much of this work was published as annual reports, which are not reviewed by the scientific community. In contrast, a later paper found no significant reduction in Plasmopara viticola in grape after treatment with compost extracts.) Four articles by another lab group discuss the inhibition of disease using spent mushroom
compost extract: prevention of Venturia inaequalis (apple scab) was successful in the lab and had mixed success the field. Still another group used leachates from composted bark to inhibit five Phytophthora spp. in the lab with variable success. A final paper reports that compost extracts were variable in their effectiveness in reducing Colletotrichum orbiculare in cucumber and Pseudomonas syringae in Arabidopsis. (It should be mentioned that the use of non-aerated, or anaerobic, compost teas does not cause your plant or landscape to become anaerobic. Anaerobic soil environments occur due to poor drainage, overwatering, soil compaction, or high clay content.)

Aerated compost tea (ACT): In my search, I found only two published, controlled studies using aerated compost teas. One paper reported that aeration of non-aerated compost teas decreased their efficacy in controlling pathogens, but efficacy could be recovered if the teas were allowed to incubate and become anaerobic again. The second paper reported that aerated compost tea “was not effective in preventing
scab infection and in some cases appeared to enhance apple scab.”

Why is there so little published data on aerated compost tea? Part of the reason is that each microbe in compost tea needs to be isolated and identified, then tested in a scientifically acceptable method before it is deemed an effective colonizer and competitor. Each batch of compost tea contains a variety of microbes at varying concentrations. How do these microbes interact? Do combinations of microbes have
the same, better, or worse effects than those isolated examples? The potential for variability is enormous, and this leads to inconclusive results during testing.

Other concerns: Six articles from my search considered the potential of compost leachates to contribute to water pollution through excessive releases of nitrogen, phosphorus and other nutrients. This continues to be an area of concern, especially when teas are used as fertilizers. Any overapplication of chemicals, whether from synthetic or natural sources, is potentially harmful to terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. To assume that “natural” means “safe” is erroneous and environmentally irresponsible.

Our UW compost tea trials: In the spring of 2001 we compared the efficacy of ompost tea in controlling cherry blossom brown rot (Monilinia fructicola) at the Washington Park Arboretum. Phil Renfrow of the City of Seattle’s Department of Parks and Recreation brewed our compost tea in a Growing Solutions 12 gallon microbe brewer. He used a high quality aerobic compost which was analyzed and approved by Soil Food Web. Fresh tea was sprayed every week on half the trees; the others were sprayed with water. Brown rot damage to the blossoms was ranked on a scale from 1 (no damage) to 5 (complete infection). In comparing the matched pairs of eight Prunus spp., the compost tea extract was not significantly different from the water application for any of the eight cultivars tested. In fact, for some trees it made the problem worse. These trees have since been removed from the arboretum so we have not been able to repeat this study. However, our results are very much in agreement with another unpublished study in Massachusetts, which found no difference between compost tea and water in preventing Alternaria blight or Septoria leaf spot in tomatoes.

I have a home landscape with many trees, shrubs, and groundcovers. I don't use pesticides except for an occasional shot of Roundup; I don't use fertilizers, unless I can determine a deficiency (most commonly nitrogen, which I add as fish meal only to plants that need it); I don't add anything else to the landscape except wood chips as an organic mulch. I don't have disease problems, I don't have insect pests, I have a
healthy, organic landscape. This tells me that compost tea is not crucial for landscape health. If a landscape has serious soil or plant health problems, it is not likely that compost tea is going to solve the problem. Often in urban areas the problems are soil compaction, overuse of fertilizers (especially phosphate), overuse of pesticides (especially fungicides which harm soil health), etc. Poor plant quality, improper plant siting and installation, and lack of proper aftercare also increase plant health problems.
Adding compost tea will not solve these problems.

The Bottom Line
• Composted mulch has been documented to suppress disease through a variety of methods
• Non-aerated compost teas may be useful in suppressing some pathogens on some plants
• Aerated compost teas have no scientifically documented effect as pathogen suppressors
• Overuse and runoff of compost teas could conceivably contribute to water pollution
• There is no “silver bullet” for plant health problems caused by poor soil health and improper plant selection and management

For more information, please visit Dr. Chalker-Scott’s web page at http://www.theinformedgardener.com.

 

[gooey]

well shit lol nowwhat

 

[gooey]

well shit lol nowwhat

 

[Seamaiden]

The four main conclusions I took away from her articles were:

• Compost and compost teas are not bad, but not automatically good in all cases for all problems.
• Non-aerated compost teas may be better than some think.
• Be careful not to overdose anything.
• Nothing is a panacea, but compost teas, both ACT and NACT may be beneficial in certain instances.

Obviously, we need more than just empirical or anecdotal data, and considering the issues inherent with being as scientific as possible, it's the best we have right now.

 

[dextr0]

^^^So proof is not in the pudding anymore??..:worried

Lol, joking. I think its backwards to think in terms of aerobic or anaerobic and categorize them as shes trying to do. Yes there is a difference but to say one or the other is all around better is misleading at best. In studying microbes you'll find most of the time most will be both depending on environment. If I do any categorizing I look at environment and say well this has more of a chance of growing in my room as opposed to this because it fits more the profile of what its known to thrive. For instance a microbe that lives in salt-water may or may not thrive in soil. I infer this because ph, temp etc are known to affect microorganisms in Fermenting and Composting...
That said im looking for whats best suited for my grow and the conditions it is in. Also what is the best known microbe for the job im looking to for it to do.

CT, great thread. U know what Ive been wondering alot about lately. I wonder if as its been said in good soil there are such and such beneficial organisms why are we not utilizing that instead of store brought products? As I get more into natural/organic farming I notice that is exactly what they do. Not really common in our circles, I guess really my question is what is your take on making our own organisms as opposed to buying them and the efficiency?

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/BIO-9.pdf

 

[ookiimata]

Thanks for the response to my query on EM, CT.