Breeding for whorls

Sativied · Aug 20, 2015

CH -F3 (from 'fattest')

Vegetative leaf contains varying quantities depending on its position on the plant: lower leaves possessing less and upper ones more. Leaf glands are most dense on the abaxial (underside) surface. The greatest amount of cannabinoids is found in the new growth near each apical tip (Kimura and Okamoto 1970, Steinberget al.1975), although Onoet al.(1972) seem to differ on this point. This variation in leaf gland placement may be due to either loss of glands as the leaf matures or a greater the endowment of glands on leaves successively produced as the plant matures. Additional study on this point is required.
src: http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/iha01201.html

What does that even mean? (the bold part). I think it's largely simply because the leaves get bigger... there's no loss of glands as the leaf matures, at least not initially, perhaps after maturing, they just spread out more because the leaf grows. I'm going to count the trichs on a single leaflet, mark it and count again every week.

If really none of the CH F2 and F3 are going to whorl I'm going to put the best with the best, most frosty sativa doms above all... and then think really hard how that's even possible.

Sativied · Aug 21, 2015

**WHORLALERT**

It's one of the CH F2 (CH x CH-quad), the F3 is all regular still. Regardless, I'm very happy I got one again and will make obvious why in a month or two.

Sativied · Aug 21, 2015

Things are looking up lol...
Found 4 stigmas on one of the AW plants. Just a few mm long but 100% positive it's either a female or a hermie :) Would have liked a few more females but if fully female at least I'll be able to use them all for seeds. I.e. Polinate the female with all the males. For that purpose it doesn't even matter how many are males or females, just want to reshuffle the (haze x afghani) x thai to see how they recombine in the next gen. An afghani-short with sativa dom leaves and haze/thai high, afghani chunky ('swollen calyxes') bud structure, haze taste, afghani flower time... ...pheno would be nice.

geologic · Aug 21, 2015

Can you distinguish hermaphrodites--
at pre-flower???...

Sativied · Aug 21, 2015

Well, not the type that grows anthers from female flowers but the more rare monoecious type that grows female flowers on one part and male on the others. Which includes having both male and female preflowers (and not a female preflower throwing nanners.... At least never heard of that).

I was just being pessimistic though, I'm sure the preflowers on AW5 are female because of the stigmas, but if it turns out to be a hermie I still won't be able to make AW seeds.

geologic · Aug 21, 2015

Sativied said:
Well, not the type that grows anthers from female flowers but the more rare monoecious type that grows female flowers on one part and male on the others. Which includes having both male and female preflowers

I've never seen (or noticed...) that--
might explain the ones I had after that N++ topdress...

Sativied · Aug 21, 2015

"The sexual phenotype of Cannabis often shows some flexibility leading to the differentiation of hermaphrodite flowers or bisexual inflorescences (monoecious phenotype). "
Src: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10681-004-4758-7

Notice the specific mention of herma flowers and bisexual infloresence. Monoecious means both male and female flower organs on the same plant but on different locations, possibly within the same infloresence though. The best example I've seen online was pretty much half female and half male, neatly separated on different branches.

Some call the monoecious hermies real hermies and the ones with nanners stress hermies but both are genetic (influence by enviroment nonentheless). A socalled perfect flower has both male and female organs in the same flower, is bisexual, hermaphrodite. Cannabis normally grows imperfect flowers, unisexual, which the monoecious pheno still does, ie. is technically not a real hermaphrodite.

Wiki puts that nicely:
"Monoecious In the commoner narrow sense of the term, it refers to plants with unisexual flowers which occur on the same individual.[2] In the broad sense of the term, it also includes plants with bisexual flowers."

Og Gong · Aug 22, 2015

Is environmental stress a good way to weed out the hermi plants for breeding selection?

tattoojim · Aug 22, 2015

Og Gong said:
Is environmental stress a good way to weed out the hermi plants for breeding selection?

yes it one of the ways

Og Gong · Aug 22, 2015

Cool thx TJ,

Has anyone ever grew a plant from seed and it herms in bloom and the clones you took from that same plant does not herm at all in bloom under same stress test conditions?

Sativied · Aug 22, 2015

Og Gong said:
Is environmental stress a good way to weed out the hermi plants for breeding selection?

It's a good way to make those susceptible to intersex traits show themselves. Which in turn can be used to weed out the hermies. Given that seemingly most females -including those that wouldn't hermie under normal circumstance - can be stressed to hermie, it's not necessarily a 'good way' to weed out hermies. The better test labs can test for sex including hermies.

Og Gong said:
Has anyone ever grew a plant from seed and it herms in bloom and the clones you took from that same plant does not herm at all in bloom under same stress test conditions?

I haven't, but I'm certain it happens. Some clone-only strains are known to throw nanners later on, yet don't do so for everyone.

Sativied · Aug 22, 2015

This update comes with music :)

I like this one better than the first because it shows the oscillating better. Again from the CH F2.

This one, however, is from the F3 ('fattest' line).

They haven't had the attention they deserve because of the AW plants I put in the 400w closet as well. Those are now in the 600w closet, will pot up these whorlers tonight.

Sativied · Aug 25, 2015

Same as last pic above:

The CH-F3 is exceptional frosty.

Found another in the F3 (more obvious from the top).

So, got 2 in the CH F3 'fattest' line and 2 in the F2. None in the F3 'fastest' line.

One of the F2 whorlers is growing preflowers already. Probably a male.

A male of another CH F2 batch in flower, removed but didn't trash so it's in the grow room but not in a closet, i.e. in the dark, for 4 days, which halted chlorophyll production.

Sativied · Aug 25, 2015

Amnesia White #5 (the female) cloned nicely:

Still one AW I'm not sure about. Probably going to clone AW5 into a few more small plants and add them to the flower closet to fill some of the space the AW and P-F3 males take up now. Or, pollinate one of the clones and get the most bud out of AW 5...

Sativied · Aug 25, 2015

Wow... it just keeps surprising me how wrong I can be about determining male vs female. 99% accuracy with the crosses I've grown over the past couple of years, but the Amnesia White...

Normally a little onion-like preflower with a small claw is male.... especially if it doesn't grow pistils within days. On these AW plants some onions stretch/elongate into female preflowers, others become fatter and form male balls...some with their own little bract, some not.

I was just about to cut up Norma, just like I did with this male and a few others:

Can get plenty of pollen from two branches, will probably remove one more once they are about to drop pollen. Keeps humidity down and allows more space for the females. It's why I want to determine sex as early as possible.

Anyway, figured I check 'him', Norma, once more... turns out he is a she after all, as I thought initially. She's a little bend out of shape from checking preflowers with my scope, and stretched a bit from being cramped into a corner because I thought it was male.

Great because she has 5 branches instead of 4, and my jars are running empty. :D Smoking the seeded Late Night bud now. I potted Norma up the first time I thought she was female so I have good hopes it will yield well for the space it takes.

So Norma (AW1) and AW5 are female. This is AW5:

I do like the structure of the AW a lot. Especially the males are by now remarkable similar for a three way cross. I will pollinate both females but can now at least create two different sister lines and later see if one is much better than the other, or just mix up again.

geologic · Aug 26, 2015

Sativied said:
Wow... it just keeps surprising me how wrong I can be about determining male vs female. 99% accuracy with the crosses I've grown over the past couple of years, but the Amnesia White...
Normally a little onion-like preflower with a small claw is male.... especially if it doesn't grow pistils within days. On these AW plants some onions stretch/elongate into female preflowers, others become fatter and form male balls...some with their own little bract, some not.

Had a bit of trouble with that myself this year;
many new varieties with growth habits I'm not familiar with--
and making <false> determinations too early...

Sativied · Aug 26, 2015

I'm getting better at recognizing the whorlers early, it's more obvious from the top when comparing regular to tri.

I suspect some will be spiral, alternating tri that is. Had that in the first CH-F2 too. I can tell early when the leaves of the first or at least second tri set are not of equal size initially.

So far whorlers in CH-F2 again, and in CH-F3 'fattest' line. None in the 'fastest' line. The latter actually seem less vigorous too, so going to ditch that line. I'm probably going to cross F3 whorler(s) with F2 whorler(s).

Growin Grass · Aug 26, 2015

So is this a whorled side shoot?
It's the only one on the plant that looks like this

Sativied · Aug 26, 2015

Looks fasciated. Search this thread for fasciated and fasciation. Is the stem behind those pistils wide and flat instead of round? Can you post a pic straight from the top?

Growin Grass · Aug 26, 2015

Sounds right

Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

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