Breeding for whorls

Toaster79 · Aug 28, 2015

I just found fookin thrips in my garden. They managed to do quiet some damage in one single day. Also found bunch of H. Miles running all around. Might be they're keeping the thrips population down, but they're sticking to soil. No way they're gonna climb up the plant. So AC on the order and off to the gardners store.

geologic · Aug 28, 2015

Thou shalt not be afraid
Of the terror by night
Nor the arrow that flies by day
Nor for the pestilence
That walketh in the darkness
Nor for the destruction
That waiteth in the noonday hour

Sativied · Aug 28, 2015

Will use the one on the right first. It essential stops the mites and larva and eggs from hatching physically.

The one on the left is BIOQUANT Ivermec-res, targets mites, larva and eggs, and is specifically developed to kill mites that developed resistance against certain other products. Not toxic for humans and animals, works fast and long, bio, and supposedly mild for younger plants too.

Still thinking of getting some predators later on. Supposedly some grow shops get them twice per week and sell them in much smaller amount for closet/tent/1-bulb growers. If that's still the case I'm probably going to get them every now and then (hopefully) just as preventative. Summer is almost over here, allowing me to drop the temps at night to 64 or even less, which the adults supposedly can't survive.

Will keep you all posted but I have good hopes it'll work. After a thorough inspection some of the AW plants and some P-F3 seem unaffected, will wash them with SMC regardless.

Toaster79 · Aug 28, 2015

What's the active ingredient in that smc?

Ive just got me this. Should take those thrips out immediately, also spoder mites, white flies and other sap sucking insects

Sativied · Aug 28, 2015

"Spidermite Control works by using a physical mode of action, blocking the breathing holes of Spidermites and insects causing death by suffocation."

"Any insect eggs are unlikely to hatch due to their encapsulation within the medium and their obvious inability to transpire successfully into adulthood."

I don't think it has a specific active ingredient, it's a bit sticky, watery gel. They can't become resistant to it and it works on all types. Supposedly anyway. I just sprayed it on the AW clones and the 4 whorlers which are in poor shape and clearly stressed so will have to see how they handle it.
http://www.spidermitecontrol.com/general-info/

Based on the descriptions and comments I think it's similar to:
http://www.amazon.com/NPK-Industries-Mighty-Plant-1-Quart/dp/B005T4IVT4

The spray you got contains Pyretherine, which is what I asked about in my first post about this, couple of products at my favorite organic shop that contain it too. Should be effective but the downside of Pyretherine is that they (spider mites anyway) can become resistant to it. And good luck man, I hope it works well for you.

Toaster79 · Aug 28, 2015

Yes, my spray contains small ammount of Pyretherine, and like yours oil. Pyretherine is neurotoxic for mites and other sap sucking insects and the oil part is the rapeseed oil with the effect you discribed yourself. And I have Chrysoperla carnea larvas on the way. Hopefully these won't fuck with my Hypoaspis miles.

Sativied · Aug 28, 2015

I read "Canola" on the description of some other products I looked at, I see now that's basically rapeseed oil. Thanks, good info.

geologic · Aug 28, 2015

Canola = Rapeseed...

Sativied · Aug 29, 2015

I checked the AW clones and 4 whorlers about 6 hours after treating them, shining the led from my phone on it makes it very easy to spot them. Found 8 mites, 2 alive, 6 seemed to be stuck and dying/dead. I checked the same clones again (22 hours after treating) and I can't find any mites. I found less than 10 eggs after checking many leaves with a scope, and they were all on the same plant. On a clone from AW3... female... she also has the most trails (white dots) from all plants. I can clone it again after the stretch but will use this one (separated from the rest) to see if that SMC product really prevents the eggs from hatching and/or at least prevents the larva from becoming adults.

I sprayed the AW and P-F3 plants as well yesterday, also after a thorough inspection. Some of the P-F3 had a couple of mites on them, but no new trails. 2 of the P-F3 had zero mites, and zero eggs and zero damage. Perhaps merely because they were further away from the most infested plants (CH). Found more on the AW plants, but it seems no new trails. I think spraying them with that seaweed extract right away worked as planned, as in at least prevented more damage that night. I haven't found any webbing, only 1 small thread.

When I checked on the plants hours after the SMC wash they still looked wet, turned out to be the oily layer from SMC. An AW (Norma) clone:

I sprayed a couple of clones and a whorler a second time, a few hours later, just to see what would happen and see if it can be overdone, which it can:

Those parts will dry and die, had something similar do the same thing with Magic Green from H&G.

Only a few leaves on those plants though, this is one leaf higher up which has a few minor spots.

I just checked the plants in the flower closet and none seem to have that damage so I'm pretty sure it's from the double treatment.

Toaster79 · Aug 29, 2015

You might wanna wash that smc off your plants in a few day as it also suffocates your plants. Eggs should hatch in three days so I would wait that long then wash them. You should not apply more then once in at least seven days and repeat it for approx 8 weeks.

Sativied · Aug 29, 2015

Yeah I plan to wash it off in a few days and reapply later if I don't find any or just few. If I find more than I'm going to use the bioquant ivermec, read quite a few good reviews/experiences with that one from growers here.

Sativied · Aug 29, 2015

Two of the AW males, other 3 are just like it. Would be tough to select one if I wanted to.
They are starting to flower, as in more than just preflowers.

The females are going steady, preflowers but not really flowering yet. AW flowers slower, needs longer, but also put them on 12/12 later (recovering from the topping in the 400w mh closet).

Norma on the right above, and here:

P-F3, the plant I mentioned I wasn't entirely happy with the color, perked up nicely after a first dose of Canna bioflores... or the seaweed extract spray.. or the extra tlc...

It's the most sativa dom P I've seen since the F1.

Another P-F3 female. The stretch bothers me every time I look at it...
Great plant otherwise. I definitely like line 19 more than the others.

Sativied · Aug 30, 2015

W1:

W2:

W3:

2 from CH-F2, 1 from F3. They are not the earliest whorlers I had. I think that is at least partly environmental, not sure what specifically but I think it comes down to having to be healthy and veg optimally, which makes them mature faster. As I mentioned before it seems to occur around the time the difference in apical dominance becomes visible. I.e. when some branch out more and others grow mainly the main stem. The earliest I got on hydro and best soil veg results so it would fit.

Anyway, I got a leaf from each of these three drying in a book, which are going to be analyzed and I will soon have the DNA sequence of each of them and maybe have the genes responsible for whorled phyllotaxy identified. Remember our convo from a year ago on that @FlyinJStable? Well it's finally going to happen :) Not sure how useful it will prove to be but it'll be cool either way. Probably going to frame it and hang it in my living room :cat:

Sativied · Sep 2, 2015

Was just reading up on what makes some strains more susceptible to mites than others and it appears that the terpene profile plays a large role.

"Adult female spruce spider mite,Oligonychus ununguis (Jacobi), were exposed to various concentrations of four host conifer monoterpene vapors (limonene,β-pinene,α-pinene, and Δ3-carene) for 24 hr to determine the lethal and sublethal effects. All four compounds were toxic to the mites."

Likely different results for different mites but it would explain why the P-F3 plants were barely affected, they are clearly high on Pinene, and during veg already.

Haven't found a living mite for the past two days. Found a few dead ones the day after applying the SMC oil. Noticed some eggs on the bottom leaves of some clones and whorlers, simply removed those to reduce the risk.

One of the AW females is not happy, pale, I sprayed off the oil of that one yesterday and gave it a light foliage feed with a mix of fish mix and seaweed extract. Could be just the soil, nutes, or just a weak plant... I also sprayed off the oil, for as far that is possible, from the clones and whorlers, using a Pyrethrin solution. Decided to get that one anyway. The bioquant ivermec-res is specifically for populations that became resistant (for example after pyrethrin misuse) and/or major infestations. Haven't found a mite on any of the clones since, no eggs either (inspecting every single leaflet with a small harvest scope). Will inspect the plants in the flower closet again thoroughly in a few hours and treat with Pyrethrin too if necessary. So far so good. Temps have dropped significantly too finally.

Sativied · Sep 2, 2015

Also, I'm about to harvest the pollen from the first AW male. It flowers noticeably faster and is apart from that very similar to the others so I'm going to use this one to cross with the P-F3. The P already takes as long as the chunk parent and not the CH, so 9+ weeks instead of 8, and while it's probably inevitable I rather not add to much of that to the P-F3 x AW.

The P-F3 is at a stage I would pollinate it normally (killed the P-F3 males so no F4 from these) so it's sort of presenting itself at a perfect time and I will just run with it.

The amount of stretch in the P-F3 males and AW males is a lot more different than I expected. AW didn't really stretch a lot, while especially males of P double to tripple in size. Will be interesting to see what the cross does.

Toaster79 · Sep 2, 2015

Great to hear those mites are gone. Same with the thrips in my tent. All gone after todays thorough inspection. But you should be keep your eyes peeled for at least next week or two to be 100% sure.

Awesome thing with those terpenes. Now let's hunt down a source of alfa or beta Pinene. Shouldn't be too hard I guess. I'm thinking pine trees produce whole a lot of this compound so should be easily avaliable. I'm thinking cold pressed oil from pine tree needles.

Sativied · Sep 2, 2015

Will definitely keep a close eye on it, I kind of do that anyway so it's not even a bother. And nice job on killing those thrips. Nasty little critters especially close up.

Pinene is commonly available in nearly pure form (used in self made soap and lotions and such...). Or perhaps some conifer resin, those are high on pinene too.

Sativied · Sep 4, 2015

P-F3 line 19 in flower:

Going to pollinate a small flower on all of them but the last one is for now the main candidate to produce the P-F3 x AW I want to grow out next. I may grow out a few P-F1 (yes no typo) first.

Going to be a long 2 months though... Found some new trails and a couple of eggs on AW4 (female) so opened the liquid pyrethrin bottle again... Not entirely surprised the wash didn't work 100%. The pyrethrin seems to have done the job on the clones so hopefully on the bigger plants too. Sprayed the carpet, walls and pretty much everything with pyrethrin.

Not happy with the Canna Bio Flores so far, used it on one P-F3 and it got pale in two days. I suspect soil is releasing nutes too fast and got too hot. I added some that encapsulates some of the nutes to be released slowly but I suspect that happens to fast with the amount of water they transpire under HPS. Going to stick with the fish mix for a while and try again in a couple of weeks.

Almost done with the males. The one that is a couple ahead of the rest is the spiral male. While that's probably just some messed up morphology from the runt seedling stage, turned out normal later on, I'm going to use the others instead. Mixed the pollen from 4 AW males. Going to use NormB to pollinate Norma, and the mix to pollinate all three AW plants as well as the P-F3.

Sativied · Sep 6, 2015

One of the AW males:

SweedSeed · Sep 7, 2015

Toaster79 said:
What's the active ingredient in that smc?

Ive just got me this. Should take those thrips out immediately, also spoder mites, white flies and other sap sucking insects

View attachment 532392

View attachment 532393

better use organic neem oil

Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

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Breeding for whorls

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