Breeding for whorls

cocoJoe · Nov 2, 2015

Hi Sativied,, I can see you know cannabis breeding.. Much respect..

I just had another male do this for me.. The male is related to the 11 original seeds..
It is a (Danny Boy x Chocolate Chunk) x Exile.. I will collect pollen from it and do some checking..
Thanx for the reply..
Best 'o luck always,,
ccJ

Og Gong · Nov 2, 2015

I found some interesting info on Ethephon sprays.

http://californiaagriculture.ucanr.org/landingpage.cfm?article=ca.v048n02p21&fulltext=yes

Og Gong · Nov 2, 2015

After reading a little more I discovered the commercial farmers are using Ethephon sprays on a lot of plants, fruits and vegetables to speed up flowering and fruiting. They also use it to regulate fruit growth. Science is awesome man.

Sativied · Nov 2, 2015

It's the key ingredient in Florel (for example at amazon), which is widely used as well. It think it's in Dutch Master Reverse as well.

I had a male grow above the reflector/hood of my hps once and it started growing pistils only on the part that wasn't in the light. Ditched it too thinking "hermie", but hermie is a trait, and not the same in males and females and more importantly it's the underlying genes that matter. If it produces only female seed the male hermie was basically a female hermie, which doesn't necessarily mean it produces hermies only but imo should still be avoided for breeding. If it produces regular seeds with possibly male hermies again but no female hermies then there may be some truth in the theory. Sounds good though, a strain in which the males produces some female flowers too and the females are so feminine they create only female flowers.

cocoJoe · Nov 2, 2015

I believe DJ Short addressed this type of male in his book on growing and breeding cannabis..
I'll check..

Peace

Sativied · Nov 2, 2015

cocoJoe said:
I believe DJ Short addressed this type of male in his book on growing and breeding cannabis..

Yes, I've seen that being mentioned in posts on forums before, something about super female/male-hermie.

cocoJoe · Nov 2, 2015

I have the book,, but I have to find it.. I will look for it..

Peace

Sativied · Nov 2, 2015

Better pic:

Og Gong · Nov 2, 2015

So in theory you can take this male and breed it with a female that maybe a herm and basically repair the missing chromosome in the offspring. Or vice versa of course Murphy's law.

Og Gong · Nov 2, 2015

Sorry for sounding elementary just trying to hang at your level :happy:. Here's the Bruce Banner 1.0 male with his pistol.

Sativied · Nov 2, 2015

Don't worry about that. I'm no expert and don't want to sound like one either but ask all you want.

It's not really to replace a "missing" chromosome but to replace an inferior version. One with different genes on it, essentially to replace a chromosome that does not have the variety of the genes that cause it to ge exceptionally feminine.

Imagine a female hermie, two X sex chromosomes. Cannabis normally needs 2 X chromosomes to be fully female. If one or both X's don't do their job (or you spray it with CS) it won't create enough ethylene and will create male flowers. In theory, or probably better said in some case, when that's because one of those two X's is inferior, it could be fixed by breeding out that inferior X and introduce a superior X. If a male hermie (XY) hermied because its X by itself was able to produce enough ethylene to produce female flowers that could be an indication it's such a superior X.

Male hermie XY
Female hermie XX

So male has the superior X, female a weak X.

Cross the two and you get:
XY x XX = 25% XX, 25% XX
And the rest is male, XY and XY

In that case the XX won't hermie, and in the XX could the superior could balance out the inferior, or not and then it still hermies.

If both XX were inferior in the female hermie it would require crossing two XX to the next generation to get the XX plants.

And thanks for posting the pic, looks very similar. I'm not sure if these 1-pistil plants are good examples of such males but not necessarily something to avoid either.

cocoJoe · Nov 2, 2015

I found DJ's book.. He states:
"Backwards" hermaphrodites are declared males that eventually sport female flowers (as opposed to the usual female-to-male hermaphrodites). These are rare occurrences, usually sterile but sometimes viable, that I found to be genetically valuable. many resinous and desirable males exhibit this trait, which almost guarantees against unwanted hermaphroditism in subsequent generations as it also increases the female to male ratio in its progeny.

Thanks DJ.. Not how I remember it but how it reads..

Peace

Og Gong · Nov 2, 2015

I had to go and educate myself lol I found this.

Sativied · Nov 3, 2015

Og Gong said:
I had to go and educate myself

In that case, download this one:
"Principles of plant genetics and breeding"
http://bio.fst.uin-alauddin.ac.id/e-learning/bio_file/Principles of Plant Genetics and Breeding.pdf

That book is used at colleges and universities for plant breeding and genetics classes across the globe. Much of it doesn't apply directly to cannabis or not to a small home breeder, but plenty of useful info that can help shape breeding projects more efficiently and effectively.

That's not a bad piece at all you posted though, I like how he specifically mentioned 'deleterious' recessive genes and "flushed from the population through selection only". Shows he unlike some other self-proclaimed cannabis breeding experts understands dominance vs recessive. As I mentioned a few pages back it affects the phenotype of a genotype only, it does not mean the dominant allele (version of a gene) will become more or less frequent in the population unless you (or nature) selects for or against it.

Sativied · Nov 4, 2015

Had to put down the AW plants last night... AW4 and 5 were done in a few days, had some amber already, Norma still pushing out new white pistils, but they started rotting and Norma hermied 'again'. Pretty bad rot too while humidity has been better than usual around this time of year. I used to aim for many small buds instead of a few large colas, should do that again.... AW4, the frosty one, had one cola larger than my forearm, but it's so leafy it will yield relatively little. Good for hash or a vaporizer. Overall AW is a great to smoke (had a few pretasters already) but horrible to grow (including the non-runt).

Apparently picked too many male seeds from the P-F1, so it's time to veg something else fast. Going for the CHxCH, whorl candidates. 32 soaked in water for a day, 30 popped out of the soil a day later (they all opened but 2 didn't break the soil fast enough).

Also got a pale one again (previous was in IH though)

CHxCH as well, transplanted from the small nft setup which didn't work so well the second time. Since I got plants in various stages now I'm going to stick with soil and some hempy plants for now. Going to get the same soil I used in the past (i.e. not premixed heavily with nutes) and maybe try the fish mix again.

Lower bud of Norma (AW1)

geologic · Nov 4, 2015

Sativied said:
Going for the CHxCH, whorl candidates. 32 soaked in water for a day, 30 popped out of the soil a day later (they all opened but 2 didn't break the soil fast enough).

> but 2 didn't break the soil fast enough
< What happened to 'em???

Sativied · Nov 4, 2015

I think with some tlc and patience they would have grown, but I popped more than I need so I'm going to use only the most eager.

Og Gong · Nov 4, 2015

Sativied said:
I think with some tlc and patience they would have grown, but I popped more than I need so I'm going to use only the most eager.

I do the same thing lol

Sativied · Nov 7, 2015

So... in Mexico they can grow cannabis indoors now and I still have to sneak around... Great for the Mexicans of course, felicidad, but it just shows again how messed up the situation in NL is.

Some of the transplanted (hydro->soil) P-F1 females. Didn't go as great as it looked initially. Got a little too much of what I wished for. While the soil in now not depleted of nutrients after vegging, it's too hot compared to what I run in hydro. They continued to grow but did drop the bottom leaves on some, yellow on others. They seemed to have settled down over the past couple of days and taking off now. Topped the larger ones too in the meantime.

I expect it will stretch during transition but so far by far the shortest nodes in a P plant. Got a couple of males too so will be recreating P-F2 (I don't have P-F2 seeds of the lines I have P-F3 and P-F4 of).

Bottom leaf still on it. Not a nute issues directly but they weren't able to drink enough shortly after the transplant unless I drowned them, but then they didn't root as well. In hindsight should have removed the largest flaps before transplanting to reduce transpiration.

This one is not topped:

Male showing nicely the after effect of the transplant but also its recovery.

Going to pot them up to better soil soon. Actually, the first light mix "soil" I ever used. What I used in the past was technically a soilless peat/perlite mix.

CHxCH, from the first batch of 13:

Bottom leaf at golden angle but not sure if tri, quad, or left is one leaf with irregular size middle finger below the others leaflets.

This one however...

I've had only one whorl this early before, from CHxCH as well. I got seeds from that one, but when I recently looked at her in a pic I couldn't help wondering why I don't have that plant anymore... I remember saying I'm confident I can find better whorlers, I guess I was referring to the bud and not the whorling cause any faster than this would require tricots. I hope to find a few more early ones in the second batch (couple of dozen).

Sativied · Nov 7, 2015

That's the IH ( ICExCH )plant in hempy bottle. Just a filler but it looks great so far and it smells pretty sweet that I just have to pollinate it. Pollen will be from a tri-whorled CH male. This IH being a late tri it could produce interesting results.

Breeding for whorls

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Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

cocoJoe

Og Gong

Rip Geologic

Og Gong

Rip Geologic

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cocoJoe

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Og Gong

Rip Geologic

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Og Gong

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