Breeding for whorls

[geologic]

I like the planting container (an the purdy plant)--
yawl got some weird lookin' ladybugs over there...

 

[Sativied]

I just read they are only in the US and Europe because we imported them from Asia as a predator against plant lice / aphids (they eat some mites too) and there are over 60 different lady bugs. The black with a few large red dots and the red with black dots are the most common, I do usually see the latter. Seems like a fun species to breed. :D

 

[Og Gong]

I just read they are only in the US and Europe because we imported them from Asia as a predator against plant lice / aphids (they eat some mites too) and there are over 60 different lady bugs. The black with a few large red dots and the red with black dots are the most common, I do usually see the latter. Seems like a fun species to breed. :D

My backyard has an urban camo color on my lady bugs lol very cool indeed.

 

[geologic]

I had no idea Harmonia axyridis is an introduced species;
yer a natural teacher--
information disseminater person...

 

[Sativied]

Reveg of AW4 the very frosty AW:

The old leaves greened up as well. Going to transplant her to soil and veg for a month or more. AW4 is still nanner-free. Very leafy and clearly takes longer but that smell... It's a bit similar to Late Night, but with 4x thicker colas. While I would have loved it to have the chunky swollen afghani like calyxes, it still beats starting with o haze or thai. So, while I ditched P-F3xAW seeds, I could still create AWxP, i.e. pollinate her with a P male. Mix the short internodes and frost level with the fast flowering fatter but stretchy P.

Speaking of P, and transplanting to soil... I didn't find enough females in the P-F1 batch to run my tubes, so I transplanted them to soil. Still have 7 P-F1, 2 are probably male, maybe more. One is huge, male like structure (wide) but could be a female. The transplant to soil worked so well (roots popping out of the bottom of the pot in 2 days), so far anyway, that I'm seriously starting to consider making it a habit. Veg on hydro (fast veg and fast maturity hence sex), flower on soil... in individual containers allow plant mobility for pollinating or removing entirely... in soil that is not depleted from vegging a plant in it, allowing me to use small pots and still flower in organic.

Some P-F3 popcorn:

 

[zeke]

Excellent thread. Very informative. Always learn something here. Great content. I had no idea ladybugs weren't indigenous to the New World. Same thing with earthworms. Seems crazy that such seemingly ubiquitous creatures are in fact "invaders". Just like us I suppose.

 

[Sativied]

Thanks Zeke. I was surprised as well when I read it, probably because we all know them when we were kids already.

She is in my main closet now:

Pretty sure it's a she, she has a black beard:
"A simple method for in-field sex determination of the multicolored Asian lady beetle Harmonia axyridis."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20331402

I guess they unlike many others insects don't mind pinene, this is what she is walking on:

I transplanted plants from hydro to soil (and coco and perlite) before but much smaller only. Still a bit too soon to judge but it's going well so far with the P-F1. One of the smaller ones, 2-3 days after transplant:

The largest of the bunch, appears to be female:

Sure, not in the best shape, literally especially, partly because it just woke up from a cold night, but also because of its high amount of leaves it transpires a lot and is not entirely able to keep up drinking water.... yet. Just a couple of days in soil though and had a huge roots mass. More importantly all the leaves are still healthy.

Shows a typical P trait (from the chunk parent, so is the clawing), notice the branches stretch to be able to reach the canopy. By itself, from the top this results in the desire (wide) structure, but those branches should be doing that by stacking nodes (like the CH parent), not by stretching. Essentially it needs space. Or less wide leaflets... Anyway, once I'm sure it's female I will top it (part where it shows preflowers first so have to wait) and give those branches some space.

CHxCH seedlings, whorl candidates, in my seedling nft setup. Opposed to previous CHxCH runs I used seeds with no pattern.

The small reveg is AW6, a male.

 

[Sativied]

Norma decided to put on yet another layer...

AW4:

IH, ICE x Cannalope Haze. It's in a half-a-gallon bottle with perlite.

*Whorl - alert*

11 leaflets, surprisingly slender too.

 

[Og Gong]

Norma decided to put on yet another layer...

That seems like a classic Sativa trait acting like there done and then push out more pistols in waves. I have experienced that also.

 

[Sativied]

That seems like a classic Sativa trait acting like there done and then push out more pistols in waves. I have experienced that also.

It's what the Late Night (the very sativa dom hemp-like one) is missing because of its short flower time. Takes only 7-8 weeks to finish, but at the cost of additional "waves".

Some nute companies abuse the phenomena, e.g. if I would have used something like H&G Shooting Powder a week ago and now would have seen the "results"...

She had a little head start but looks now like she will take the longer to finish than the others. Even though it's more excessive than I've ever seen I can't say I mind in this case, don't need the space yet and she smells great so the more the better. Would have tried to keep her green a little longer but she already showed she can still produce bud with the faded autumn leaves.


Ran out of tiresias mist, old bottle, not even sure it works anymore. I want to do a self-testcross with the CH whorled, figured I create some CS myself.

+ on the left, the silver ring that will release silver ions, the smoke/cloud like part
- on the left, the silver ring that will produce bubbles, cleans it thoroughly so had to do a second run.
Attached to a 12 volt adapter (one or more 9 volt batteries work too). In distilled water with a pinch of salt.

Cloudy, at about 1000ppm within 5-10 minutes. Diluted to 60-ish ppm... cause I ran out of distilled water. Aiming for 40-50ppm.

 

[Og Gong]

It's what the Late Night (the very sativa dom hemp-like one) is missing because of its short flower time. Takes only 7-8 weeks to finish, but at the cost of additional "waves".

Some nute companies abuse the phenomena, e.g. if I would have used something like H&G Shooting Powder a week ago and now would have seen the "results"...

She had a little head start but looks now like she will take the longer to finish than the others. Even though it's more excessive than I've ever seen I can't say I mind in this case, don't need the space yet and she smells great so the more the better. Would have tried to keep her green a little longer but she already showed she can still produce bud with the faded autumn leaves.


Ran out of tiresias mist, old bottle, not even sure it works anymore. I want to do a self-testcross with the CH whorled, figured I create some CS myself.
View attachment 545540

+ on the left, the silver ring that will release silver ions, the smoke/cloud like part
- on the left, the silver ring that will produce bubbles, cleans it thoroughly so had to do a second run.
Attached to a 12 volt adapter (one or more 9 volt batteries work too). In distilled water with a pinch of salt.

View attachment 545539
Cloudy, at about 1000ppm within 5-10 minutes. Diluted to 60-ish ppm... cause I ran out of distilled water. Aiming for 40-50ppm.

How long do you let it brew? If I find a good pheno I may experiment with this also, thanks for showing us.

 

[Sativied]

It was just a quick test, just messing around. The salt and using a (800ma) adapter and putting them close together speeds up the process significantly. It's supposed to be done in a dark container but I wanted to see it :) Also should be 99.99% silver, these rings are 92.5%, and contain nickel. That seems to be mostly a health concern though, pretty sure it will still work for feminizing.

The farm and other sites have tutorials but here's a very thorough one, also check the part about checking it with a laser:
http://www.cancertutor.com/csilver/

 

[Og Gong]

It was just a quick test, just messing around. The salt and using a (800ma) adapter and putting them close together speeds up the process significantly. It's supposed to be done in a dark container but I wanted to see it :) Also should be 99.99% silver, these rings are 92.5%, and contain nickel. That seems to be mostly a health concern though, pretty sure it will still work for feminizing.

The farm and other sites have tutorials but here's a very thorough one, also check the part about checking it with a laser:
http://www.cancertutor.com/csilver/

Thanks for the link. My girl says she can buy cs already made at the vitamin shop but there are different brands. Does it make a difference with the different ppms used? Some brands are 10 ppm up to 30 ppm. Although it is a little pricey, 16oz for $40ish.

 

[Sativied]

Yeah ppm does matter. Too high can damage the plant, too low and it won't be effective enough. It basically supresses ethylene (female flower hormone) production. Supposedly it should be at least 40-50 ppm. Some plants turn easier than others, perhaps the 30ppm would work if you spray it more often.

For about 10 bucks you can buy some 99.99% silver wire from ebay for example. Enough to make gallons.

An alternative is tiresias mist, $15, probably just CS, very small bottle, enough for 2 branches maybe. Wasn't very effective when I used it, got balls but little to no viable pollen, probably too hasty removing the treated branch. Late Night is from 1 seed I got from that run.

 

[Sativied]

One of the grow shops I thought had pretty much closed based on their web shop, but just visited and they still sell everything... about two miles from my place.

Wanted to get a new reflector, just a cheap simple thing, and ended up getting this one:

...for 10 bucks, about a tenth of what it normally costs. I actually have nearly the same thing, a Gavita Tripplestar, but have been using it for two years and should have replaced the reflective sheets by now. Problem is they are no longer sold in NL, and they cost about 40 bucks for the sheets alone.

<--Happy farmer :D

 

[Sativied]

Starting to regret not popping more IH seeds. It has the leaves I wanted in the P, which is odd considering IH is ICE x CH and ICE is supposedly 100% indica. Also don't have any worthy pollen to drop on her, although... I have a triwhorled male CH about to drop pollen... Only flowered 2 IH before, 1 hermed half way (was next to a rather big light leak), but if this one stays clean I may have to drop some more seeds. I have like a thousand or so of them. It lacks taste/smell but P has plenty of that.

She's under 400w mh. Ducting to cover the transparent bottle but still allow me to see roots. 500ppm A&B from H&G at roughly 6.2 ph, daily, after flushing a liter water through it.

 

[Sativied]

The CHxCH whorled male grew 'a' pistil inside a male flower... ironically a so called "perfect flower".

"A "perfect" flower has both stamens and carpels, and may be described as "bisexual" or "hermaphroditic"."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_reproductive_morphology

 

[cocoJoe]

View attachment 547007
The CHxCH whorled male grew 'a' pistil inside a male flower... ironically a so called "perfect flower".

"A "perfect" flower has both stamens and carpels, and may be described as "bisexual" or "hermaphroditic"."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_reproductive_morphology

Sativied,, How many 1 or 2??
I had a male over a decade ago that showed 2 female preflowers..
Oh it's a female,, so I set it a side..
A week later it a flowering male????
The male was a Danny Boy (Ortega x Space Queen) from Subbie.. I made a few seeds with it..
11 seeds were made with a Chocolate Chunk female..
Germinated them immediately,, and got 11 females.. All were solid no hermies..

The point is the male is not for breeding.. But if I had made 22 seeds,, would I have gotten 22 females..
Will your male make female seeds for your personal use??

Best'o luck with your breeding project

 

[Sativied]

To be specific, it has 1 pistil with seemingly 1 stigma.

And excellent question.

Since we cannot easily see the dna, whether it has XX (female) or XY (male), a hermie could be a male high on ethylene, the female flower hormone, or be a female with extremely low ethylene production, too low to express as female (similar to spraying it with CS/STS entirely and early on).

When it produces only female seeds (which 11 out of 11 does seem to indicate, though theoretically it still possible to get 11 females out of 11 regular seeds) it indicates it's a female by sex chromosomes and has only X to share, and yours would be an example of full blown sex reversal (from female to male phenotype). Not extremely uncommon and probably often goes unnoticed.

I can't test it with potentially just 1 seed from itself but will use its pollen on its sister (whorled CHxCH female which ironically hasn't reversed yet while I treated it...). I hope they don't all turn out to be female, i.e. I hope it's a feminine male and not a masculine female.

Here's why...

Quotes below from: The draft genome and transcriptome of Cannabis sativa
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359589/pdf/gb-2011-12-10-r102.pdf

"Cannabis has a diploid genome (2n = 20) with a karyotype composed of nine autosomes and a pair of sex chromosomes (X and Y). Female plants are homogametic (XX) and males heterogametic (XY) with sex determination controlled by an X-to-autosome balance system..."

X-to-autosome balance refers to a genotypic sex determination system in which the ratio between the numbers of X chromosomes and number of sets of autosomes is the primary determinant of sex.

In other words, 2 X is female, 1 X is male. The two X combined result in the hormone balance that makes it express as female. It's not something on the Y that makes it male, it's the absence of a second X.

Another quote:
"sex determination in Cannabis has been supposed to be based on a X:autosome dosage rather than on an active-Y mechanism (Westgaard, 1958; Grant et al., 1994"

This fits with the ability of XX plants being able to create staminate (male) flowers, as it doesn't need an Y (male sex chromosome) to do that. A female hermie (XX) could possibly have one or two inferior X's that even combined cannot produce enough of the female hormone ethylene to tip the balance entirely to the female side.

A male hermie (XY that produces pistillate/female flowers) could then have a strong/superior X that partly or entirely (if fully expressing as female) makes up for the absent second X.

If that's the case, the superior X of a male hermie could possibly be used to breed out intersex traits in females in a variety with weak Xs.

"The ability to undergo sexual reversion is thought to have a genetic base: some ecotypes such as the Italian Carmagnola are very resistant to any sex reversion treatment..."

Finding the male hermie with the strongest X could be simply a matter of testing which reverts to female with the least help, with the least amount of essentially adding ethylene production artificially.

Male sex reversal:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044328X72801685

Ethepon can also be used to boost trich production on males and females:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0926669013000526

 

[Og Gong]

To be specific, it has 1 pistil with seemingly 1 stigma.

And excellent question.

Since we cannot easily see the dna, whether it has XX (female) or XY (male), a hermie could be a male high on ethylene, the female flower hormone, or be a female with extremely low ethylene production, too low to express as female (similar to spraying it with CS/STS entirely and early on).

When it produces only female seeds (which 11 out of 11 does seem to indicate, though theoretically it still possible to get 11 females out of 11 regular seeds) it indicates it's a female by sex chromosomes and has only X to share, and yours would be an example of full blown sex reversal (from female to male phenotype). Not extremely uncommon and probably often goes unnoticed.

I can't test it with potentially just 1 seed from itself but will use its pollen on its sister (whorled CHxCH female which ironically hasn't reversed yet while I treated it...). I hope they don't all turn out to be female, i.e. I hope it's a feminine male and not a masculine female.

Here's why...

Quotes below from: The draft genome and transcriptome of Cannabis sativa
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359589/pdf/gb-2011-12-10-r102.pdf

"Cannabis has a diploid genome (2n = 20) with a karyotype composed of nine autosomes and a pair of sex chromosomes (X and Y). Female plants are homogametic (XX) and males heterogametic (XY) with sex determination controlled by an X-to-autosome balance system..."

X-to-autosome balance refers to a genotypic sex determination system in which the ratio between the numbers of X chromosomes and number of sets of autosomes is the primary determinant of sex.

In other words, 2 X is female, 1 X is male. The two X combined result in the hormone balance that makes it express as female. It's not something on the Y that makes it male, it's the absence of a second X.

Another quote:
"sex determination in Cannabis has been supposed to be based on a X:autosome dosage rather than on an active-Y mechanism (Westgaard, 1958; Grant et al., 1994"

This fits with the ability of XX plants being able to create staminate (male) flowers, as it doesn't need an Y (male sex chromosome) to do that. A female hermie (XX) could possibly have one or two inferior X's that even combined cannot produce enough of the female hormone ethylene to tip the balance entirely to the female side.

A male hermie (XY that produces pistillate/female flowers) could then have a strong/superior X that partly or entirely (if fully expressing as female) makes up for the absent second X.

If that's the case, the superior X of a male hermie could possibly be used to breed out intersex traits in females in a variety with weak Xs.

"The ability to undergo sexual reversion is thought to have a genetic base: some ecotypes such as the Italian Carmagnola are very resistant to any sex reversion treatment..."

Finding the male hermie with the strongest X could be simply a matter of testing which reverts to female with the least help, with the least amount of essentially adding ethylene production artificially.

Male sex reversal:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044328X72801685

Ethepon can also be used to boost trich production on males and females:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0926669013000526

Very interesting. I had a Bruce Banner male that had a pistol pop. I thought it was a hermy male so I pulled it lol. I'm gonna have to experiment on the next male I find that pops a pistol.