Breeding for whorls

Sativied · Jul 23, 2014

P#6:

Just a couple of more days, same for P#5 (fas). Seeds in P#6 (pollen from a random male P) look great, going to leave that bud on a little longer. Those F2 are mostly for testing seedling frost-level (just checking if it didn't decrease) but since they are F2... might be something interesting in there.

Right side going any day now (P#5, 6, and IH#5). As you can see from the color alone (not just leaves but the white buds) the P#1 (A left in front, B in center back) still needs longer. Had 8 weeks and 1 day 12/12.

Lower bud on the P#1A.

Late Night:

Sativied said:
Instead of topping, I will LST the main stem of some and see what that does to the side shoots.

Tested with 4 plants and of one of them one of the remaining branches became tri-whorled. Not strong whorled so popped 12 more... Not sure yet what I'm going to do next round. More plants, that's for sure, maybe some of these 12, maybe 40 new P, maybe some Late Night up against the walls to find one that stretches the least.

geologic · Jul 23, 2014

You do good science,
in what sounds like a little corner of a little corner;
you need a big lab--
with attached greenhouses...

Sativied · Jul 26, 2014

Thanks geo :)

Big lab with greenhouses attached... not many things that would make me happier than that. I get a little envious every summer when I see all those outdoor grow pics, I don't even have a garden.

P#6 x P (random male P), so F2. Always suprising how many seeds a single small lower bud can produce, about 60 from a 1-inch bud. Looks like they're all good. These are just to see if any PxP still results in frosty seedlings and to test one of the whorl inheritance theories I posted earlier. Since I have 60 and there's probably a lot of variation, I might just do a round with these to see what it results in.

geologic · Jul 26, 2014

Purdy seeds--
and little trichie thing...

Sativied · Jul 26, 2014

P#6:

Sativied · Jul 26, 2014

:( P#1A spawned bananas. It's done, and they're only on a couple of foxtails, but still, intersex... :yuck:

So two of the strong tri-whorled, that is IH#5 and P#1A - and not P#1B which is a clone from the same plant, spawned nanners while the late whorlers and regular didn't (including P6 from which the seeds above are). Almost 5AM here, too late to attach conclusions and consequences to it.

Sativied · Jul 27, 2014

P#6 was done after 8 weeks and 2 days 12/12. At least as frosty as the other 3 P, seemingly a bit more, it has generally best bud structure (see first pic at the top of this page), the most sativa-dom leaves. It was a replacement for a whorled (P#4 if I remember correctly) so had a little less veg time in the tubes than the others. Not topped but pinched and bended and tied down the main shoot. I have a clone of it too.

So, I think I will just run the F2 from P#6 and test the first theory from post #51. At least I can exclude that possible inheritance option if it doesn't work out. Never used F2 (that I know of anyway) so that would be an added bonus.

Just chopped IH#5. In hindsight not the best candidate, way too leafy.

I normally prefer to keep more leaves on while drying initially but with the humid weather I don't want to take the risk.

Missing a few colas (harvested) and parts of colas (cut when de-nannered), would have been a massive yielder otherwise. I'm glad she at least smells good, unlike the ICE mom this I can smoke :)

Sativied · Jul 28, 2014

IH#1, indica-dom, I prefer to keep the buds smaller especially with the humidity this season, but apart from that one bud that had some rot in it it made it to the end. It has a typical oldskool smell, nothing special, but way better than the ICE mom. As IH#5, way too leafy, also on the inside of the buds.

The fasciated P#5 was just a waste of space even though it had little compared to the others. Interesting to see it develop but yield-wise topping it would have been better.

P#1B (was the small on in the center in the back)

P#1A, the one with the short reveg episode resulting in a monstercrop:

geologic · Jul 28, 2014

Dervish is still awhorlin'

I rooted his last pruning (6th ) so I could harvest flowers sitting on the porch--
instead of six more times a day in the sun...

geologic · Jul 28, 2014

Addendumb--
Just a note, but;
if I haden't removed half the plant at each pruning--
six prunings would result in sixty four mainstems...

geologic · Jul 28, 2014

geologic said:
Addendumb--
Just a note, but;
if I haden't removed half the plant at each pruning--
six prunings would result in sixty four mainstems...

(on a regular opposite-phyllotaxy plant...)

Sativied · Jul 30, 2014

Cleaned up the flower closet, getting ready for next run. Some root shots:

Smells exactly like licorice root, tastes like it too. Last run they smelled more like carrots.

Popped 2 of the F2 from P6 last night, opened overnight. Just want to see if they are still sparkly as F1 seedlings before I pop more.

homebrew420 · Aug 2, 2014

Nice work bud looks great. Nice pull of tops as well.
Peace

Sativied · Aug 6, 2014

Seedling frost test of the F2 from P#6 x random P male:

Seems very similar to the F1. I only tried two and there was some variation in F1 as well but looks ok so far.

Sativied · Aug 7, 2014

More whorled-thoughts:

"Phyllotaxy describes the geometric pattern of leaves and flowers, and has intrigued botanists and mathematicians for centuries1,2. How these patterns are initiated is poorly understood, and this is partly due to the paucity of mutants3. Signalling by the plant hormone auxin appears to determine the site of leaf initiation [figured that out already :)]; however, this observation does not explain how distinct patterns of phyllotaxy are initiated4.
abphyl1(abph1) mutants of maize initiate leaves in a decussate pattern (that is, paired at 180°), in contrast to the alternating or distichous phyllotaxy observed in wild-type maize and other grasses5. Here we show that ABPH1 is homologous to two-component response regulators and is induced by the plant hormone cytokinin. ABPH1 is expressed in the embryonic shoot apical meristem, and its spatial expression pattern changes rapidly with cytokinin treatment. We propose that ABPH1 controls phyllotactic patterning by negatively regulating the cytokinin-induced expansion of the shoot meristem, thereby limiting the space available for primordium initiation at the apex.
"
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n7003/full/nature02778.html

Another keyword in there is "regulators", phyllotaxy / leaf arrangement as well as fasciation mutation in flowers etc is controlled by homeotic /regulator genes.

"Regulated initiation of leaves or flowers from the shoot meristem gives rise to the familiar geometric patterns observed throughout the plant kingdom. The mechanism by which these patterns, termed phyllotaxies, are generated, remains unclear."

"Studies of aberrant phyllotaxy1 Mutants of Maize Indicate Complex Interactions between Auxin and Cytokinin Signaling in the Shoot Apical Meristem1[W][OA

One of the most fascinating aspects of plant morphology is the regular geometric arrangement of leaves and flowers, called phyllotaxy. The shoot apical meristem (SAM) determines these patterns, which vary depending on species and developmental stage. Auxin acts as an instructive signal in leaf initiation, and its transport has been implicated in phyllotaxy regulation in Arabidopsis (Arabidopsis thaliana). Altered phyllotactic patterns are observed in a maize (Zea mays) mutant, aberrant phyllotaxy1 (abph1, also known as abphyl1), and ABPH1 encodes a cytokinin-inducible type A response regulator, suggesting that cytokinin signals are also involved in the mechanism by which phyllotactic patterns are established.

Therefore, we investigated the interaction between auxin and cytokinin signaling in phyllotaxy. [....] These studies highlight a complex interaction between auxin and cytokinin signaling in the specification of phyllotactic patterns and suggest an alternative model for the generation of altered phyllotactic patterns in abph1 mutants. We propose that reduced auxin levels and PIN1 expression in abph1 mutant SAMs delay leaf initiation, contributing to the enlarged SAM and altered phyllotaxy of these mutants."

abph1 is a mutant that has opposite phyllotaxy like mj instead of the alternate it should have. They suggest it is reduced auxin levels that result in a delay of the leaf initiation which in turn 'contributes' to the change in phyllotaxy. At the same time they highlight a "complex" interaction between auxins and cytokinin signaling as a factor.

If a reduced auxin level can delay leaf initiation it makes sense a higher auxin concentration speed it up.... Either way, removing apical bud affects the auxin concentrations and affects the "interaction between auxins and cytokinin signaling" as well.

As interesting as it is, I don't necessarily need to know why it generates a certain patterns opposed to another, it's the inheritance I care about most.

"IAA (auxin) regulates an amazingly diverse array of processes in plant growth and development ranging from embryo patterning to growth responses to tropic stimuli (Woodward and Bartel 2005). Auxin response involves a large-scale reprogramming of gene expression affecting hundreds of auxin-regulated genes."

There are "auxin-regulated genes", let's assume (just) one of those or a linked combination of those are for phyllotaxy. There are also regulator genes, that is genes that regulate the production of hormones such as auxin ad cytokinin. So auxin-regulated genes, and auxin regulator genes... perhaps I need a specific 'version' of both for it to whorl. The auxin regulator genes that cause the irregularity of the auxin production and the auxin-regulated genes that cause whorled phyllotaxy as a results.

That complicates matters obviously, but, cytokinin could play a large role here, or more specifically the ratio / concentrations of cytokinin vs auxins. So there are also cytokinin regulated genes... and genes that regulate cytokinin production.

I bet a real botanist and/or a geneticist would fall out of his chair laughing reading some of this thread but I think I'm on to something :joyful:

burn4me · Aug 11, 2014

my god bro!!! you sir are a beast and i dig your style. this thread (how i never knew it existed) is amazing. lots of info and very descriptive too. way to go on your set up, seems pretty dialed. i will be lurking now. sending +vibes to you and your garden. stay safe

Sativied · Aug 11, 2014

Thanks burn4me, I'm humbled by the compliments and motivation people at the farm give me.

Some new pics of the P6-F2, sparkle test definitely worked out. The F2 of P starts out as least as frosty as the F1, second set of leaves looks like the most frosty I've seen in the IH.

Same but from other side:

Found a couple of hundred seeds in my jars and bags while cleaning up for the latest harvest. I can separate the P from the rest because they are larger, but I don't know if the rest is ICExCH, CHxCH, or Late Night x CH, so, decided to use these just to look for freaks and possibly one or more that start out as tris...

Will be planting the nearly 60 P6 F2 seeds very soon, going to switch the tubes setup for something else for a while. A floating raft hydro sort of thing probably, with 49 (7x7) bottles to keep the roots apart at least a bit, so I can remove males and rearrange the rest. While still running a very similar system and nutrient regime. It'll be super low budget prototype sort of thing. $10 pond liner, $10 wood, $10 styrofoam, and I've been saving up 1liter demi-water bottles for a while at 40 cents each. That and several items I already have from my current setup like the air and water pumps.

@geologic : just in case you hadn't noticed them yet, some nice specimens at https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...ow-and-loompas-gear.64990/page-3#post-1304012

geologic · Aug 11, 2014

Thanx for the link--
are you working on the reed raft grow thing???

Sativied · Aug 11, 2014

Nah, summer season is almost much over here, that will have to wait till next year.

It's for in my 4x4' flower closet. I want to grow a larger number of the F2 so I can observe ratios better and do somewhat of a proper selection. I can't remove plants (like males) from my tubes because the roots are entangled by the time they show sex. It'll be a hybrid of my current setup and something like this:

But as in my drawing with bottles (with no bottom) to prevent the situation in the photo on the right.

Sativied · Aug 11, 2014

Just checked on the 15 random seeds I planted, noticed 4 cotyledons and got excited... then took a closer look:

Double yolker :inpain:

Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

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Breeding for whorls

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