Can't Figure Out Plant Issues

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 24, 2020

Hey everyone. I have been dealing with some plant issues recently and I just can't seem to figure out what's going on. The most recent SAP analysis showed I was low in Fe, Mn, Zn.
My vegetative room has (50) Jungle T5 48" lights.
I use organic living soil with a coco base.
CO2- 600ppm
400-500 PAR
Water Temp - 68*
Plant Temp - 79*-82*
Ambient Temp - 80*-82*

At first, I thought there was something wrong with my water. I had my water tested and sure enough, it had some bacteria colonizing in it. However, the testing facility was not able to tell me what specific bacteria it was. I cleaned all my res' and irrigation lines. Waited 1 week and tested the water again and came back clean. So I'm thinking I can start to rule out the water issue, but something in my gut says it can still be something in the water. I do have another water test submitted just to check once again.

I use CaMg every water
Current pH: 6.5 (sometimes it creeps higher to 6.8-6.9 halfway through watering and I have to readjust it.)
After about 4 weeks the plants start to exhibit signs of deficiency/stress. (shown in pics)
I amend my raised beds with BioLive.
I have grown all these strains for YEARS without any issues.

ISSUES:
-The new leaves start to get small
-Yellow/pale
-Eventual purpling
-Blistered look. (The margins in between the veins of the leaves start to literally look like they push out like a blister.)

The odd thing is once I transfer plants to my Bloom room they seem to heal and get better. In my head, they start to recover because they have an abundance of food and can start to eat.

My Bloom room has 90 DE Phantom lights. Grown in 60 gallon No-till Raised Beds.
CO2 - 900 PPM
750-900 PAR
Water Temp - 68*
Plant Temp - 79*-82*
Ambient Temp - 80*-82*

I haven't been feeding the plants anything extra besides what's in the soil. Could the plants be eating so much food it's draining my soil of nutrients within 4 weeks and I need to feed? Do I need to do anything "special" with my fertilizer program and/or pH when using LED's?

PICTURES: The plants in pots are in VEG and the plants in the beds are in BLOOM.

Upon request, I can give any additional info/pics.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Anthem · Nov 24, 2020

Looks like not enough Magnesium in the soil. Have you recently changed your light bulbs? Thinking maybe they are new and putting out more light and that is causing the plant to up take more food.

Porky1982 · Nov 24, 2020

The top 2 pics look starving. The middle 2 pics look ok.
The rest look starving and over watered.
The very last pic looks to be over fed hence all the burning.
I use a water only soil and usually have to only feed in the last 4 to 6 weeks of flower.

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 25, 2020

Anthem said:
Looks like not enough Magnesium in the soil. Have you recently changed your light bulbs? Thinking maybe they are new and putting out more light and that is causing the plant to up take more food.

That is one of my thoughts as well. Maybe they are eating more than normal with the lights and raised co2 levels.

Porky1982 said:
The top 2 pics look starving. The middle 2 pics look ok.
The rest look starving and over watered.
The very last pic looks to be over fed hence all the burning.
I use a water only soil and usually have to only feed in the last 4 to 6 weeks of flower.

The 2 middle pics are in the beginning stages of the issues. They start to get pale and eventually yellow.

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 25, 2020

Porky1982 said:
The top 2 pics look starving. The middle 2 pics look ok.
The rest look starving and over watered.
The very last pic looks to be over fed hence all the burning.
I use a water only soil and usually have to only feed in the last 4 to 6 weeks of flower.

I as well have a water-only soil but I add food every now and then. I haven't been lately because of these issues I'm scared I don't want to push too much nitrogen or phosphorus, etc. Except results show low zinc, manganese, iron. I'm going to do more foliars of that and see how it goes

mysticepipedon · Nov 25, 2020

You can rule out magnesium. Mg is a mobile nutrient in the plant, meaning the plant will move it from old plant parts to young, growing plant parts when it becomes deficient. Because the young parts of the plant are suffering, this is an immobile nutrient in the plant.

This looks like either iron (Fe) or zinc (Zn) to me. Since they are low in the soil, it could be that something in your veg nutes is making it difficult for the plant to get what is in the soil.

I think Ca and Mg both will bind Fe and Zn in soil and make them unavailable, but I can't say that's the problem. There are cal/mag products with Fe. I have one, though I don't recall the brand. You might also try a light dose of a chelated micronutrient amendment, which usually contains both Fe and Zn.

Grapefruitroop · Nov 25, 2020

FiZZiKKZ said:
I as well have a water-only soil but I add food every now and then

I think that here start the problem.....
With a precharged soil and a very demandin environment on the long run can became difficult to understand wich element is gona be supplemented and when...
Also adding this and that can fuck up the balance that is in your nute program or in your case in the original recipe......
When i was preparing my soil for outdoor i never had a problem related to nute or ph......once i started using led indoor with co2...lots of ghost to chase....
Salt nutrients, ec pen, and ppm targets made my life much easier.....

I hope you can sort it out....and i think that probably balanced foliars like you said togheter with water drenches could solve the imbalances so you could start feeding em by water a complete balanced fertilizer....
☠

How much peat is in the mix btw? Thats generally the highest CEC material that hold nutes and make "things complicated "when it comes to add back in more fert

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 25, 2020

Grapefruitroop said:
I think that here start the problem.....
With a precharged soil and a very demandin environment on the long run can became difficult to understand wich element is gona be supplemented and when...
Also adding this and that can fuck up the balance that is in your nute program or in your case in the original recipe......
When i was preparing my soil for outdoor i never had a problem related to nute or ph......once i started using led indoor with co2...lots of ghost to chase....
Salt nutrients, ec pen, and ppm targets made my life much easier.....

I hope you can sort it out....and i think that probably balanced foliars like you said togheter with water drenches could solve the imbalances so you could start feeding em by water a complete balanced fertilizer....
☠

How much peat is in the mix btw? Thats generally the highest CEC material that hold nutes and make "things complicated "when it comes to add back in more fert

Thanks for the input.
Do LED really change the way the plant uses nutrients? I have been googling to find any info on whether I need to change fertilizer program while using LED but however I cannot find any articles on it. If you know of any send them my way please.
I do not know the exact % of peat off hand.

Porky1982 · Nov 25, 2020

FiZZiKKZ said:
I as well have a water-only soil but I add food every now and then. I haven't been lately because of these issues I'm scared I don't want to push too much nitrogen or phosphorus, etc. Except results show low zinc, manganese, iron. I'm going to do more foliars of that and see how it goes

Personally i would up the feeds alot.

Porky1982 · Nov 25, 2020

FiZZiKKZ said:
Thanks for the input.
Do LED really change the way the plant uses nutrients? I have been googling to find any info on whether I need to change fertilizer program while using LED but however I cannot find any articles on it. If you know of any send them my way please.
I do not know the exact % of peat off hand.

No LED does not change the way a plant uses nutes.

Aqua Man · Nov 25, 2020

Actually spectrum does affect nutrient uptake. Specifically potassium, calcium and magnesium under most LED as the ratio of spectrums are different than MH and HPS.

Aqua Man · Nov 25, 2020

FiZZiKKZ said:
Thanks for the input.
Do LED really change the way the plant uses nutrients? I have been googling to find any info on whether I need to change fertilizer program while using LED but however I cannot find any articles on it. If you know of any send them my way please.
I do not know the exact % of peat off hand.

Google this and look for the full study. Many have an abstract but I found the downloadable study.

The influence of the LED light spectrum on the growth and nutrient uptake of hydroponically grown lettuce

Aqua Man · Nov 25, 2020

Looks like possibly watering issue but could be many things... ph (would explain the low availabilityof micros), microbes wiped out, environment etc.

Using and co2 equipment? A bad burner can cause ethylene poisoning.

Adequate air exchange?

Grapefruitroop · Nov 26, 2020

Porky1982 said:
No LED does not change the way a plant uses nutes.

It doesent change the way the plant take nutes but LEDs are a completely different game...and if you supplement Co2.....oh boy...
Nitrogen, Calcium and magnesium will be burned fast, very fast.
Online ive seen dozens of organic heads tryin to wrap their head around the fact that they couldn "accept" the fact that the plants were deficient....I was one of those......
After using the same organic recipe for years you just cant believe that your plants are STARVING!!
Then supplementing become difficult because they eat like crazy and thers no wayin hell to predict the time release of those organic meals or teas....you just end ina stuck.....deficiencies....lockouts...ph unbalances....

Foliar feeding balanced solution could be a good rescue while tryin to flush and restore balance in the mix!

mysticepipedon · Nov 26, 2020

Grapefruitroop said:
It doesent change the way the plant take nutes but LEDs are a completely different game...and if you supplement Co2.....oh boy...
Nitrogen, Calcium and magnesium will be burned fast, very fast.
Online ive seen dozens of organic heads tryin to wrap their head around the fact that they couldn "accept" the fact that the plants were deficient....I was one of those......
After using the same organic recipe for years you just cant believe that your plants are STARVING!!
Then supplementing become difficult because they eat like crazy and thers no wayin hell to predict the time release of those organic meals or teas....you just end ina stuck.....deficiencies....lockouts...ph unbalances....

Foliar feeding balanced solution could be a good rescue while tryin to flush and restore balance in the mix!

Oh great. I just got a little 3 x 3 with an LED for mother plants and was planning to change my HIDs to LED. So I have to rethink the soil mix now?

I tend to go light on nutes in my soil mix. Maybe it's time to try upping it.

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 26, 2020

Here is my most recent soil test.

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 26, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Looks like possibly watering issue but could be many things... ph (would explain the low availabilityof micros), microbes wiped out, environment etc.

Using and co2 equipment? A bad burner can cause ethylene poisoning.

Adequate air exchange?

I have a bulk co2 tank with medical grade co2. No burners in this building.

FiZZiKKZ · Nov 26, 2020

Grapefruitroop said:
It doesent change the way the plant take nutes but LEDs are a completely different game...and if you supplement Co2.....oh boy...
Nitrogen, Calcium and magnesium will be burned fast, very fast.
Online ive seen dozens of organic heads tryin to wrap their head around the fact that they couldn "accept" the fact that the plants were deficient....I was one of those......
After using the same organic recipe for years you just cant believe that your plants are STARVING!!
Then supplementing become difficult because they eat like crazy and thers no wayin hell to predict the time release of those organic meals or teas....you just end ina stuck.....deficiencies....lockouts...ph unbalances....

Foliar feeding balanced solution could be a good rescue while tryin to flush and restore balance in the mix!

Okay well I'll have to up my SAP and Soil tests and see what the plants need and when.

Grapefruitroop · Nov 26, 2020

mysticepipedon said:
So I have to rethink the soil mix now?

Yes , definitely...
Prolly the best is go very light on ammendment and then add....maybe foliar feeds
Unfortunately i cant give u any advice because i gave up on organics indoor in that specific environment and i opted out for the opposite of what an organic grower wants for his medium.....very low CEC.....and feeding every watering a balanced solution...and adjust the amount as needed guided by ppm....
In this sense Coco is your friend...i added to 30%

The problem i was facing is...How can u load a soilmix with the amount that is gona be needed of N, Mg and Ca without burnin the hell out at the beginning? Im sure there has to be a way....its just trial and error..and time....
I was using Dolomite to buffer the peat....plenty of Mg available at slow paste.....but not enough

Another point i was considering is that in organics you rely on soil life to process the food and make it available...The microbes and the rest of the good life are definitely not interested in taking part to this race of explosive growth that we are tryin to achieve with leds, perfect environments with co2 added.....they follow another rithm....more slow...more natural...
They should be on crack (maybe daily dosage of sugars) to be able to keep up with the amped needs of the plants....
Maybe im overthinkin ....but thats why i switched to salts.....

Lenny805 · Nov 26, 2020

I know everyone wants to grow organic but it’s not for novice growers. If you want your grow to produce top shelf with zero worries use Advanced Nutes sensi a&b and Big bud during flowering. All my buddies who wanted to grow herb crushed it first time . You don’t need a bunch of supplements . RO water, advanced nutes sensi for coco, co2 and grow in coco. You will never have a plant that has deficiencies. I’m a commercial farmer that’s been at this for 30 yrs. and I still use advanced along with Power si . This entire organic fad is crazy. You can not grow better weed than me organically. It’s not up for debate. It’s a fact. I’m not being rude but isn’t the whole point to grow good smoke? Salts make a better overall end product. Living soils is a joke.

Can't Figure Out Plant Issues

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Can't Figure Out Plant Issues

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