CES Micro Bloom in Coco

[Snow Crash]

Hey everyone. I've been working around the grow room recently and have a grow about ready to flip to 12/12. This is a personal use medical grow intended to last me until my next harvest, which likely won't be until January 2012, so heavy harvest is an important factor.

In addition, I'm working on about as tight a budget as I've worked on for a while. I have a few half used bottles nutrients around and I want to use up all the extra stuff. Today I threw away maybe $60 in expired nutrients...

These 6 plants are all clones taken from last summer's grow and they are all monster cropped (taken while in flowering) and topped and LST trained. I've been growing them very slowly with minimal CFL lighting over the last 16 weeks or so. I bonsai trained them to last in a small tent until I could move them into flowering for all this time. They had been in botanicare coco in 1 gallon root makers for like 3 months.

There are 3 unknown plants that could be Cole Train, Lemon Skunk, Warlock, or Motavation, or some combination of those plants. The tags got lost somehow and most of them look the same. The other three plants are Wappa, Cole Train, and Sensi Star. All of them have been half neglected on waterings for weeks now, sometimes I fed them, sometimes I didn't; usually I never cared to measure runoff much or deal with them at all. Amazing how they just kept growing, no problems the whole time in veg. I'd had them on mostly Canna Coco A+B, Liquid Karma, and Potassium Silicate.

I am growing in a 5x5x7 tent, using 3 gallon SmartPots, a mixture of recycled Canna coco and Roots Organics coco mix on tables to lift the plants off the ground. I use trays and a siphon system to manage my runoff on the drain to waste top feed setup. As of right now the plants were transplanted about a week ago, they are on 20/4 lighting until June 8th when I plan to start 12/12.

My flowering nutrient system is going to be an experiment and a test of my merit as a grower. I'll be using Cutting Edge Solutions Micro 6-0-0 and Bloom 0-6-5 in combination with AN Big Bud Dry, Humboldt Nutrients FlavorFul Fulvic Acid, Botanicare Hydroplex and Silica Blast. I found the CES locally for $0.0046 per ml for the Bloom, which is a comparatively good deal on a 0-6-5 nutrient. The Micro 6-0-0 I picked up a liter of, at $0.0096 per ml, not as great a deal but at 4ml per gallon giving me about 70ppm of Nitrogen I'm not concerned about the final cost. I am considering picking up a 250ml bottle of Canna BioBoost Accelerator. I use this as a foliar spray from weeks 4 to 7 and it has a noticeable impact on resin output.

The plants are currently being trained using grow through plant supports which have been modified to angle the screens. This allows me to shape the garden more efficiently around the vertical bulb and independent movement of the plants as they grow.

Here is a rough EC and ratio guideline of what I'm aiming for:
Week 1 - 1.3ec 1-1-1 1% Ca 0.3% Mg
Week 2 - 1.3ec 1-2-2 1% Ca 0.5% Mg
Week 3 - 1.5ec 1-4-5 0.7% Ca 0.5% Mg
Week 4 - 1.6ec 1-5-6 0.7% Ca 0.5% Mg
Week 5 - 1.7ec 1-5-7 0.7% Ca 1% Mg
Week 6 - 2.0ec 1-8-7 0.7% Ca 1.1% Mg
Week 7 - 1.5ec 1-5-5 0.7% Ca 1.1% Mg
Week 8 - 0.4ec 0-0-0 Fulvic Acid and Flushing

Here's some pictures from tonight.

 

[Rushoe]

Its the same shit as gh 3 part the npk is a bit off but its the same shit. Right now I am using the gh micro and bloom cuz I have still have some left but I will be using my ces for flower to see whats really going on. Advanced made a new 3 part thats cheaper then gh I think its 60 bucks for 3 gallons the grow micro and bloom another 3 part that can be used with the micro and bloom as well. Gonna grab me some of that for next time.

 

[PhatBlunt]

I recently got a nice sample pack from CES, contains their 3part, some 0-0-2 Uncle John's blend, and their Cal-Mag which they have separated into 2 products.

they have basically separated every element to be its own individual product, my only problem is, I dont have a high understanding of how to put together a nice regiment.


What I want to know is how and why you compose your npk to those ratios, why are you using nutrients at such a minimal rate? If I didnt know any better, I would be inclined to say you are just a cheap bastard. lol

 

[Snow Crash]

In coco you don't push the ridiculously high levels. Over time the media will build a bank of cations. It also breaks down over time providing potassium. I might find that the plants top out around more like 2.4ec during week 6 (or days 40 to 50) but I want to ensure a clean final product and I don't want to push that much food through them when I'm feeding on such a regular schedule.

I selected my nutrient ratios based on what I've seen these strains do before, and how I notice plants act in Roots Organics Coco mix. It's always important to be able to have some flexibility in nutrients. As I've been messing with the numbers I think having the Uncle John's Blend around to keep the Potassium levels up will be useful once I cut out the Big Bud and begin using more Hydroplex.

Thanks for stopping by guys.

 

[Rasta Man]

what size light is that in your pictures, hat light will you use for flowering

 

[Snow Crash]

In the picture that is a 400w Digilux MH. For flowering I'll be using at least a 1000w Eye Sunlux HPS. I'd run more wattage but I'm working on a 110v/120v 15amp circuit and will need to run some air conditioning this summer so I have to keep the amps free'd up for that.

 

[Goose]

CES is not at all the same as GH. No dyes, no dipotassium phosphate in Bloom, and WAAAYYY less salt build-up overall. I started with GH 20 years ago, but CES is by far better for basically the same price. Do a side by side and notice the difference in the overall health of hte plants, just using the 3-part. Just an opinion, take it for what it's worth...Peace!

 

[Goose]

By the way, I have found that the mixing rates that CES suggests are pretty much spot on for MOST plants. obviously there are some strains that are a bit more finicky, and I have seen guys run at 80% with no signs of deficiencies. On the flip side, I saw a garden with a guy running 2000+ ppms (Hanna Gro'Check) in Rockwool and his plants were raging...it was a heirloom AK strain. I am with you PhatBlunt, most people are afraid to push the limits, know your plant and adjust accordingly (more or less).

 

[Snow Crash]

CES is not at all the same as GH. No dyes, no dipotassium phosphate in Bloom, and WAAAYYY less salt build-up overall. I started with GH 20 years ago, but CES is by far better for basically the same price. Do a side by side and notice the difference in the overall health of hte plants, just using the 3-part. Just an opinion, take it for what it's worth...Peace!

I don't know about no dyes. The micro is a kind of blood red/purple color. If that's just natural from the chelated iron or whatever then so be it, but the Bloom is clear and the Micro most definitely is not.

I've only had one chance to feed them thus far, things are just getting rolling, but it looks like this system is going to work out fine.

I've decided that I want to get a few more of the CES products so I can do justice to the system so that I don't get to the end of this and go "Damn. If only I had the Mag Amped..." I'm not going to get the 3-part Grow or the Plant Amp (I have some Calplex around in case I need extra Ca) but I'm definitely going to be adding the Mag Amped and the Uncle John's Blend.

Between the Grow, Micro, Bloom, the Mag Amped, Plant Amped, and Uncle John's... dialing in just about any element for different phenotypes at different periods of growth is very easy. The more I read about the stuff the more I like what they are selling... time will tell.

 

[desertsquirrel]

I used CES for about a year and i really liked it. It is a very cheap product for the micro and bloom, however they have the most expensive cal and mag supplements on the market and the line really seemed to shine when i did use them.

Looking at the profile again it seems like you could get away with just Epsom for the Mg and S but the cool thing about the CES cal-amp (calcium chloride i think) was that it dropped the pH to about 4.2 and as it was uptaken raised the pH back into the 5.2 range by about 24-48 hours. The larger swing, to me, indicated that the plants had uptaken significant amounts of solution (removed acids) as well as replaced those ions with hydroxyls.

Good stuff

Btw: Definitely not the same as GH. And i always though the deep red micro was the boron, not a dye. but thats mostly opinion.

Cutting Edge Solution Bloom
(0-6-5) Mg1% S2% 1090g/946mL= 1.15g/mL@10mL/Gal

N 0

P 80

K 126

Mg 30

Ca 0

S 61

Cutting Edge Solution Micro
(6-0-0) (NH4)0.3% (NO3)5.7% Ca5% Fe.1% B.02% Co.0005% Mn.05% Mo.0008%
1200g/946mL = 1.27g/mL @6mL/Gal

N 120.6

P 0

K 0

Mg 0

Ca 100.8

S NOT LISTED

Fe 2.01

B .402

Co 1.20

Mn 1.008

Mo 0.018

Na NOT LISTED

 

[Snow Crash]

Some fun with ratios.

2:3 ratio of 6ml Micro and 9ml Bloom is ~1200uS/cm at 4-6-5
1:3 ratio of 5ml Micro and 15ml Bloom is ~1500uS/cm at 2-6-5
1:4 ratio of 5ml Micro and 20ml Bloom is ~1800uS/cm at 3-12-10
1:5 ratio of 5ml Micro and 25ml Bloom is ~2100uS/cm at 5-25-21
1:6 ratio of 3ml Micro and 18ml Bloom is ~1500uS/cm at 1-6-5

A 1:4 ratio the entire way through works out well in the end because both bottles even out with a Quart of Micro being 1/4 the volume of a Gallon of Bloom so that there is none left over when both are empty. There would be no point in having a Micro/Bloom system if I didn't tweak the ratios throughout the grow, but thought that even at the 1:4 ratio the numbers don't look too bad for an easy "1-4-3" bloom formula.

I've been using Epsom Salt for a while and have definitely been "getting away with it" but I am always on the lookout for a good magnesium specific supplement (even if it is based on Magnesium Sulfate). The Mag Amped is supposedly a lower molecular weight and is chelated for easier absorption. In a cation competitive media like Coco, where naturally high buffers of Calcium and Potassium are retained, the importance of a good solid dependable source of Magnesium -independent of Calcium - becomes clear very quick. If this product works better than Epsom Salt I should be able to discern that without having to do current side-by-side comparisons. Relying instead on my experience with the Salts and the results with the plants (and the residual on the outside of the smartpots).

In my attempts to find a good magnesium source I've used Organicare Huvega, Advanced Nutrients Bud Candy, and Humboldt Nutrients SeaMag. Out of them all the Bud Candy definitely worked the best. The Huvega is more sodium than magnesium and it has a ridiculously high EC (at the recommended 30ml per gallon...) SeaMag actually stopped the growth of my plants. I mean, halted to the point of no noticeable change over 3 days after using it. If I had a plant I needed to slow down while the others caught up then I'd use this product. Definitely not as a mid-bloom magnesium supplement though.

So, Mag Amped seems like a natural progression in this hunt for an effective Magnesium supplement. At $20/qt (the price I can get it locally) I actually hope it stomps on Bud Candy. The Mag Amped does have it's work cut out for it considering they are both the same price and the AN product has its resin enhancing magic potions in there.

Ultimately, for this grow, I'd like to do justice to CES and try and focus on their system as much as possible. There was a point when AN Overdrive at 1-6-5 with .9% Magnesium was looking like a good PK booster for weeks 6 and 7... but it's just too much to deal with.

This grow I will stick with Micro, Bloom, Mag Amped, and Uncle John's from CES.

I'm still going to do some bloom boosting with Hydroplex as an initiator and Big Bud as a builder in the first four weeks.

As of right now I also intend to use BioBoost as an foliar enhancer from resin onset until day 45ish but I don't have it yet and may decide against this.

The silica blast is sticking around too because silica kicks ass.

By day 35 of flowering I will be running the CES components with silica and a Bioboost/Mag Amped foliar. That's when I hope the system will shine and pack on the weight and trichomes I'm looking for.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Are you sure you want to run 5 ml micro and 15 bloom? profile seems really problematic.


N 60
P 120

K 189

Mg 45
Ca 50
S 91

 

[Snow Crash]

Are you sure you want to run 5 ml micro and 15 bloom? profile seems really problematic.


N 60
P 120

K 189

Mg 45
Ca 50
S 91

I'll be touching up the Cal-Mag levels, but yes, I'm sure.

Botanicare CNS 17 Ripe is a 1-6-5 and I've been using that for a few grows now beginning in the 5th week of bloom. The 5/15 is pretty much a 1-5-4 ratio, less PK than the Ripe.

So...

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to reference when saying this ratio looks "really problematic."

As I'm looking at it I think of the Roots Organics providing additional Nitrogen to the plant to offset a relatively low Nitrogen ppm. Personally, I'll be running something a little different, at times less PK, and at times, more, but I'll be hanging around 60ppm of nitrogen for most of flowering. I find I don't need more than that.

 

[desertsquirrel]

It just has the plants needs inverted...

The most successful mmj profiles are around:

N 120-150
p 40-60
K 180-240
Mg 60-80
Ca 100-140
S 40-60

MMJ tissue sample analysis:



And thes pics here are general Agriculture standards for tissue sample analysis.

 

[Snow Crash]

There is a methodology here.

A quote from Lawrence Brookes, a scientist from General Hydroponics:

"When plants are growing in a perfect happy life, when they are young and in vegetative mode, they have no particular reason to reproduce. They're secure and growing vigorously, becoming bigger and stronger. But when the trigger comes of day-length shortening, the plants are being told by nature that the winter is coming and the end of their life is at hand. And so, at this point the plants have to completely change priorities into reproductive growth. By switching the nutrients to something that enhances flower growth and reducing nitrogen significantly; the plants are now threatened by the nutrient regimen. They are not on a starvation diet, but a modified diet that stimulates and enables reproductive growth."

Basically, by altering the ratios of elements available to the plant I can initiate processes (I'm still working to understand completely) which enhance flower production.
The two schools of though here seem to be:
1. Feeding the plants based on their final tissue sample averages.

This is a 2-2-3 formula and could be achieved with 8ml Micro and 8ml Bloom, and 8ml UJB. The problem with this and CES is a low Magnesium level, and their Mag Amped product is 1% magnesium to 4% sulfur (which I think is a worse ratio than Epsom Salt) and is suggested to run at like 2ml (or a whopping 7ppm extra Magnesium). Also, in coco this could very well be too much potassium, and without any other way to get the Mg levels up higher I don't think I can accomplish that with what I have. Maybe by using some of the Grow formula, rather than micro... or something like 6ml Grow, 4ml Micro, and 8ml Bloom...

2. Feeding the plants to exploit these nutritional advantages to fruit production.

Some time ago I had a scholarly pdf on the effect of using higher levels of high p ash on tomato crops resulting in something like 125% production. I went googling for it and couldn't find it. That was the basic foundation for my earlier foray into high P bloom supplementing.

There's the nitrogen present in the media and the availability of nitrogen in coco. I've been having issues with Nitrogen clawing late in flowering when running high N levels as suggested by other growers. I'll start flowering around 100ppm, but drop the level as the weeks progress. As the Roots Organics breaks down over time the combination of less N in the media, and less N in the nutrients, is what my experience is telling me will be an improvement over previous grows in this stuff.

For a different media, or pure hydroponics, I would definitely run a different level for most of flowering. The total amount of nitrogen available to the plant should be plenty to keep her green and healthy and making new amino-acids. If there ever is any shortage, like in weeks 4-5, I can always dial my levels back up for a bit. Nitrogen deficiency is amongst the easiest of problems to diagnose and quickest to resolve.

In addition to the present nitrogen I have to consider that as the coco breaks down it will provide a very adequate amount of potassium to the ratio. This potassium will then balance out the final ratios, but I'll need to balance my other cations against this process. Coco nutrients are specifically designed with particular attention to potassium levels to keep growers from locking out less available elements like magnesium.

I find that listening to other people when it comes to nutrients tends to be a poor choice. After a couple tries I'm finding that understanding the media, and reading the plant, is what needs to happen. I know a lot of people think that high phosphorus bloom supplementation is a myth, and that instead a person should run a bunch of nitrogen. I tried this, didn't like what I saw (at all) and have been working with increasing levels of PK over the last few harvests. In this media the earlier I increase the PK levels the larger the flowers get.

Really, I think the biggest issue with running more PK+Mag than N+Cal is that I pick up A LOT of sulfur when using more CES Bloom. Running the Hydroplex and the Big Bud are actually preventing me from needing all that much of it earlier on but later it could present an issue. If I do run into a problem I think it will likely be more of a combination of issues stemming from the sulfur levels. The high P by itself isn't a big deal, but in combination with the high S, that could create a real bag of worms in a high cation media like Coco.

That's the point though, I'm just working this CES system in and trying to understand the quirks. I might need to keep the micro levels around 7-8ml through the first few weeks, but I hope not to. Maybe I'll actually be better off with a gallon of grow to balance the system out? At this point, totally still just trial and error.

I think to give some comparison of high N to high P I'll post some pictures. This is three consecutive grows, the pictures are all taken at the same point in bloom, at about day 40 (I think the second photo is more like 36... but it was the only one I had close enough under 2MB). In each grow I'm using more phosphorus and less nitrogen. I know that the ratios I propose might appear a little "off" compared to tissue samples but I have to follow my gut when I see the results of this process. I think you'll notice the impact of my latest attempt at high PK levels thanks to Hydroplex and Big Bud in combination with low levels of Canna A+B.

Also including a few pictures from last night. The beginning of 12/12.

 

[Motherhugger]

Its the same shit as gh 3 part the npk is a bit off but its the same shit. Right now I am using the gh micro and bloom cuz I have still have some left but I will be using my ces for flower to see whats really going on. Advanced made a new 3 part thats cheaper then gh I think its 60 bucks for 3 gallons the grow micro and bloom another 3 part that can be used with the micro and bloom as well. Gonna grab me some of that for next time.

Yeah, I just caught something about the cheaper 3 part from AN. I think it might be Jungle Juice, but I might be mixing that up.

I'm set with Sensi, so I don't really keep up with the new stuff as much as I used to for nutes.

 

[Snow Crash]

After working my levels through and through I just don't see any way around it. I need more damn Cal-Mag and the best place for me to get it from is Cal-Mag plus. The problem is in the Micro. It tests at more than twice the concentration listed on the bottle. In order to get the promised calcium ppm's I need from the micro I have to push an outrageously high EC. Since I'm not willing to do that I have to find other means.

The CES Mag Amped and Bloom just don't combine for enough Magnesium especially considering the sulfur I have to add to get it there, and even with Epsom Salts I'm going to have a tough time without the Cal-Mag plus. I think this little flaw is going to be HUGE to the final product. I'm really hating myself for not just getting the CNS 17 like I'd planned. So much damned Mg in that system!

I'm working through it. Things'll be fine. But I'm already finding myself foliar feeding Magnesium and noticing some Potassium shortages, so getting that potassium supplement increased is going to make a difference in the future.

Here are some pictures. End of week 1.

 

[Snow Crash]

Due to series of recent behaviors by a certain administrators I have been left with a very sour taste in my mouth.

To remedy this issue I'll be smoking my medication elsewhere.

Sometimes when growing meets "politics" the ability to remove oneself from the bullshit becomes hard. In knowing myself I am making the decision to no longer support this site, or update this or any other thread, with my advice.

Sickened.