Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

[psilo]

Have you read this info?

http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Murray_Trace Elements.pdf

And also his book, Sea Energy Agriculture

There's so much work behind the use of sea solids in agriculture and it's been kept a secret for so long. Well, not purposely kept a secret, I don't think, but the big ag companies want farmers to only think that 16 elements are essential for thriving plants. Not the case.

And yes, a bunch of the content is still sodium chloride, but it's a similar argument to Marinol. With focusing on just one of the constituents of the whole, the product doesn't work like it would with the rest of the elements in symbiosis. Give it a test on a plant or two in soil(less). I just water in my hydro nutrients for my plants in promix, still with sea solids and all. Im sure you'll love it.

Wouldn't kelp supply all of these trace elements?

 

[organicness]

Kelp is a good source of those micronutrients in a much smaller quantity, yes. But I prefer to give the plant an abundance of those elements. And, if the kelp was washed prior to processing, then those nutrients won't be there in their full amount. When the salt touches water like rain, some of the more soluble elements will get washed away and won't make it into the soup that you feed the plants. So I like to get good sources of salts and use them in that way instead of trying to rely on it as a by-product like it is with kelp.

 

[organicness]

So, say one mixed up a solution of Jacks and mixed the calcium nitrate before the epsom salts on accident. And say that someone was so distracted by life that he (or she) used that solution on plants. What would be the outcome of the plants, most likely, by accidentally doing that?

 

[ttystikk]

So, say one mixed up a solution of Jacks and mixed the calcium nitrate before the epsom salts on accident. And say that someone was so distracted by life that he (or she) used that solution on plants. What would be the outcome of the plants, most likely, by accidentally doing that?

It depends less on the order of events and more on which batch the epsom ended up in. If you mixed and added the Jacks to your res, then the cal-ni, and then the epsom last and separate, chances are pretty good that nothing untoward happened. IF, on the other hand, you accidentally put the epsom in with the calcium nitrate, then chances are really good you've got gypsum sand in the bottom of your mix bucket- and if you poured that into your res, that's where it has come to rest.

Consequences? If the calcium in cal-ni and sulphur in epsom salts get together in too high a concentration, then they 'flocculate'- bind up- and drop out of solution. This leads directly to insufficient calcium and/or sulphur in the nutrient mix. Worse, if the sandy gypsum remains in the bottom of your reservoir, it will act as a catalyst for more calcium and sulphur to bind up and drop out of solution...

The fix is simple; flush, drain and remix if in serious doubt. If the girls show no ill effects, then chances are you got away with it. A quick and easy check is to measure the TDS of the solution; if it seems oddly low, then you probably did a boo-boo and made gypsum.

Final note; for those running soil, especially organics, adding gypsum is a good thing! It, along with many other organic inputs, will be broken down by beneficial microbes once again making these minerals available to the plants. The problem with gypsum in hydro is that the lil bugs can't do their thing in the water.

 

[organicness]

Very cool, thanks for the info. I've been trying to figure out an issue I've been dealing with where the plants had basically stalled out and started to turn yellow and the leaves started to crisp up. It only happened on the top 1/3 of the plants and moved down only in the hydro plants, and ones that I had in promix never yellowed up on the bottom, only the top. This also happened when I added a 1000w MH and the heat took off like crazy for maybe 10-14 days while I sorted out finding the cash for an AC. I did that, and flushed all the plants, but it's still going on in the hydro plants. The promix plants have started to green up on the new growth, which is real exciting. But the hydro stuff is still a concern for me.

I just couldn't remember if I had added the sea salt solution after the hydro or after the calnit, and honestly I kinda think I added it last. I mix up 30 gallons at a time, adding hydro, letting it mix, add the sea salt, let it mix and add the calnit last. I think I might've mixed up the last two.

What does the gypsum look like when it settles to the bottom? Is it white/grey like gypsum board? Or would it be a brownish color? 'Cause I do have a brownish silt like substance at the bottom of some of my buckets. but wasn't sure what that was so just would vacuum it out. hmmmm

 

[ttystikk]

My first and biggest concern would be with the sea salt you're putting into your soil. If all you use is the sea salt, you might be okay; but since you're also using Jacks and calcium nitrate, you have to remember these are salts too and add to the TDS you're running. It sounds like your plants- especially in hydro- might be having trouble drawing nutes up due to high TDS. Another possibility is a simple mismatch of nutrients, which happens a lot when people mix and match their nutrient sources. Not all nutes play well together. What is your EC in the water? If you had a calcium-sulphur reaction (calcium will do this with other minerals too, sulphur is just the most common) then your plants are likely to show calcium and sulphur deficiencies.

Yes, gypsum looks like tan/light brown/offwhite sand or slime in the bottom of the water/hydro bucket. It is definitely best to vacuum it out.

The best way to mix and add Jacks- or any nutrient salts- is to put the Jacks in the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket, add a gallon of warm water and mix it thoroughly for awhile until there are no more little granules. If you're going to add epsom salts, put them in this bucket, and again mix until there's no solids. Now, fill that 5 gallon bucket up with cold water and stir before adding it to your res.

For the calcium nitrate, do the same; mix it in a 5 gallon bucket with a gallon of warm water- heat makes the dissolution process go faster- and once it's fully dissolved (should not take long) fill the bucket with cold water and stir. Do NOT put epsom salts in with any nutrient mix containing calcium! Here's where things change from the Jacks bucket; You want to add the calcium nitrate slowly to your res. or UC and mix it well as you add it. Don't just pour it in- that's risking flocculation- so I use a 1/2" hose to siphon the cal-ni solution slowly into my res. and as it does so, I keep mixing.

 

[organicness]

I've been using this sea salt mix for 2 grows now and it's been amazing until this one time. I added a 1000w MH and hiked the temps, took care of that, and just think I might've mixed it backwards once. The soilless plants I flushed are starting to green up at the top now. The bottom leaves were always green as green can be. The hydro plants still are a little shaky looking. I don't have many in hydro right now, but a couple I do have are key plants, so got cuttings just in case. The bottoms, like I said, are all beautiful looking for the most part. The top and mid-section is where the damaga is. We'll see. Hopefully it'll all come back up. I doubt it's the sea salts, as I've grown with it this way for a while. Thanks for the insight, though. Definitely learned a couple of things.

 

[ttystikk]

It's always 'this one time', isn't it? Shit- 'this one time', I lost a crop in RDWC due to high root temps and pathogens. 'This one time', I lost a bunch of plants to elephant's foot (thanks to Cap for helping me figure it out in hindsight), and some to strangulation of the mainstem. 'This one time' I lost more due to wild pH swings. I am so DONE with 'this one time' bullshit, I changed up my strategy from RDWC to chow mix/dtw.

I think consistency is what separates the amateur from the pro. Anyone can get lucky once... you don't get lucky over and over consistently. That's the mark of skill, knowlege and a plan in action.

None of this should be taken to sound like I am heaping scorn on anyone's efforts, approach, or media/nutrient choices. I'm just done with inconsistent results. I don't even care if the method I choose only grows half as fast as the best out there- as long as I get consistent results, I can just add more stages in the pipeline and the yields and frequency will still be there.

There is a reason Ferraris are a bad bet in Formula One; Sure they're fast, but they aren't consistent.

Did I mention that I want consistent results? Wanted to make sure I covered that. Consistently.

 

[organicness]

I understand where you're coming from. But you know, mistakes get made and even in consistent setups people can get complacent and think they remember every step by heart and might glaze over something. It happens. So, I made a mistake. I learned from it and it won't happen again, that's for sure.

 

[ttystikk]

I understand where you're coming from. But you know, mistakes get made and even in consistent setups people can get complacent and think they remember every step by heart and might glaze over something. It happens. So, I made a mistake. I learned from it and it won't happen again, that's for sure.

This, while true, also supports my argument about consistency being the mother of innovation- and success. You see, if something goes wrong in a system with a proven track record, you have a big leg up on finding the solution. First, you can eliminate what has not recently been changed in terms of process, inputs or activities. Then, you can evaluate the 'error' in terms of how it's impacted the system, something impossible to do without a consistent track record. Taken together, these two tactics make finding the source of the problem an order of magnitude less difficult than trying to solve the problem from the ground up.

Granted, often the problem is easy to spot- but sometimes it isn't, and those hard to find and resolve problems are the ones that people tear their hair out over or worse, cause them to fail entirely.

Your recent experience seems to prove my point; you quickly recognized that a mistake was made, based on past experience and results- and then you took steps to fix it. Consistency may not be glamorous, but it definitely makes running a complex system like a grow op a lot more manageable!

On a more positive note, consistency is also the foundation of good data from experiment; after all, only if you know what things are already doing in response to your systematic approach will you be able to tease out what the results might be from a deliberate change, like nutrients, or lighting. Otherwise, you're just guessing, and that rarely leads to improvements.

This is really at the heart of my frustration with not being able to get consistent results from RDWC- and I don't blame the technology, only my own apparent inability to use it effectively!

 

[drknockbootz]

It's always 'this one time', isn't it? Shit- 'this one time', I lost a crop in RDWC due to high root temps and pathogens. 'This one time', I lost a bunch of plants to elephant's foot (thanks to Cap for helping me figure it out in hindsight), and some to strangulation of the mainstem. 'This one time' I lost more due to wild pH swings. I am so DONE with 'this one time' bullshit, I changed up my strategy from RDWC to chow mix/dtw.

I think consistency is what separates the amateur from the pro. Anyone can get lucky once... you don't get lucky over and over consistently. That's the mark of skill, knowlege and a plan in action.

None of this should be taken to sound like I am heaping scorn on anyone's efforts, approach, or media/nutrient choices. I'm just done with inconsistent results. I don't even care if the method I choose only grows half as fast as the best out there- as long as I get consistent results, I can just add more stages in the pipeline and the yields and frequency will still be there.

There is a reason Ferraris are a bad bet in Formula One; Sure they're fast, but they aren't consistent.

Did I mention that I want consistent results? Wanted to make sure I covered that. Consistently.

Amen brother. I never ever lost an entire crop after 7 yrs of growing until I tried rdwc and nft setup. I was chasing heavier weight and lost the reliability and consistancy of coco. Your right consistancy is the most important thing that separates the good from the best. Preach

 

[Capulator]

This, while true, also supports my argument about consistency being the mother of innovation- and success. You see, if something goes wrong in a system with a proven track record, you have a big leg up on finding the solution. First, you can eliminate what has not recently been changed in terms of process, inputs or activities. Then, you can evaluate the 'error' in terms of how it's impacted the system, something impossible to do without a consistent track record. Taken together, these two tactics make finding the source of the problem an order of magnitude less difficult than trying to solve the problem from the ground up.

Granted, often the problem is easy to spot- but sometimes it isn't, and those hard to find and resolve problems are the ones that people tear their hair out over or worse, cause them to fail entirely.

Your recent experience seems to prove my point; you quickly recognized that a mistake was made, based on past experience and results- and then you took steps to fix it. Consistency may not be glamorous, but it definitely makes running a complex system like a grow op a lot more manageable!

On a more positive note, consistency is also the foundation of good data from experiment; after all, only if you know what things are already doing in response to your systematic approach will you be able to tease out what the results might be from a deliberate change, like nutrients, or lighting. Otherwise, you're just guessing, and that rarely leads to improvements.

This is really at the heart of my frustration with not being able to get consistent results from RDWC- and I don't blame the technology, only my own apparent inability to use it effectively!

You are going to love the C.H.U.B.B.

 

[ttystikk]

You are going to love the C.H.U.B.B.

Can you spell this one out for me? Somehow, I don't think you're referring to what happens when I see my girlfriend, lol

Dankworth is preaching the gospel of his 'hater buckets', chow mix with a majority of hydroton. He's running 25% coco and 75% hydroton, I'm using what I have, will likely end up with about 35% coco, 65% hydroton. This seems to represent a 'best of both worlds' approach; coco's advantages of ion exchange and structure, the ability to topdress and add beneficial tea, and hydroton's drainability and 'vertical NFT' with the top feed irrigation. Doing drain to waste, might get fancy later with recirc, just tired of the issues for now.

 

[Capulator]

Capulators hempystyle underwater bio bucket

Combining DTW, DWC, and of course, bennies and biomats. No coco. 100% perlite, beach pebble, or growstones. will run both to see what I like better.

 

[kushtrees]

Capulators hempystyle underwater bio bucket

Combining DTW, DWC, and of course, bennies and biomats. No coco. 100% perlite, beach pebble, or growstones. will run both to see what I like better.

I always liked the 100% perlite. These I want to see

 

[ttystikk]

Capulators hempystyle underwater bio bucket

Combining DTW, DWC, and of course, bennies and biomats. No coco. 100% perlite, beach pebble, or growstones. will run both to see what I like better.

This sounds like you have given it a lot of thought. Do you have an in depth writeup on the approach on the Farm somewhere? I'd very much like to hear more.

I'm converting my RDWC built with 1" bulkheads and 5 gallon buckets. This means there will be an inch or more of water in the bottom of each bucket, and therefore available for whatever roots drop down that far. I'll be topfeeding, will increase my runoff as roots get established to increase the turnover of this water. Like you, I plan to dtw, but I see nothing wrong with giving the ladies a lil pool to dip their roots in. As far as bennies go, brother- you've been leading the way for me for awhile now! First Jacks, now bennies- heck, the single biggest reason I went with coco/hydroton chow was to get the bennies into the root zone!

Tell me more about biomats?

 

[Capulator]

This sounds like you have given it a lot of thought. Do you have an in depth writeup on the approach on the Farm somewhere? I'd very much like to hear more.

I'm converting my RDWC built with 1" bulkheads and 5 gallon buckets. This means there will be an inch or more of water in the bottom of each bucket, and therefore available for whatever roots drop down that far. I'll be topfeeding, will increase my runoff as roots get established to increase the turnover of this water. Like you, I plan to dtw, but I see nothing wrong with giving the ladies a lil pool to dip their roots in. As far as bennies go, brother- you've been leading the way for me for awhile now! First Jacks, now bennies- heck, the single biggest reason I went with coco/hydroton chow was to get the bennies into the root zone!

Tell me more about biomats?

I will be posting a thread here on the farm with all the details when the time is right... within a couple of weeks as I convert between runs.

 

[dankworth]

Capulators hempystyle underwater bio bucket

Combining DTW, DWC, and of course, bennies and biomats. No coco. 100% perlite, beach pebble, or growstones. will run both to see what I like better.

I talked shit first! Well publicly anyways.
No coco Cap? No cec for insurance for those of us with fucked up power outages?
I had thought about having an airline at the bottom of hempy buckets, and dripping periodically into them, and having runoff periodically run off.
Never got around to it.
Same thing as I'm doing now, but aeration frames for netpots in totes instead of filling the whole thing up.
Roots really wanted to start spreading in the water when I introduced air.
With Cap's bennies, and the dtw nute delivery, I have every confidence that it will work out very well.
Running it without the active cooling and insulation for a while first in an attempt to determine a failure point. Naw.
So now that I have an unbiased understanding of how they want to behave in direct response to a variety of stimuli, I will sell out and go buy some more dip n grow I think.
Cause that shit's fun.
Remember when DD said that stim-root 5000 blew his roots up better than RE?
I do.
Stim-root 5000 is 5000 ppms IBA, which is 0.5% IBA.
Dip n grow being 1% IBA, 0.5% NAA.

 

[ttystikk]

I will be posting a thread here on the farm with all the details when the time is right... within a couple of weeks as I convert between runs.

when you do, send me the link!

 

[ttystikk]

I talked shit first! Well publicly anyways.
No coco Cap? No cec for insurance for those of us with fucked up power outages?
I had thought about having an airline at the bottom of hempy buckets, and dripping periodically into them, and having runoff periodically run off.
Never got around to it.
Same thing as I'm doing now, but aeration frames for netpots in totes instead of filling the whole thing up.
Roots really wanted to start spreading in the water when I introduced air.
With Cap's bennies, and the dtw nute delivery, I have every confidence that it will work out very well.
Running it without the active cooling and insulation for a while first in an attempt to determine a failure point. Naw.
So now that I have an unbiased understanding of how they want to behave in direct response to a variety of stimuli, I will sell out and go buy some more dip n grow I think.
Cause that shit's fun.
Remember when DD said that stim-root 5000 blew his roots up better than RE?
I do.
Stim-root 5000 is 5000 ppms IBA, which is 0.5% IBA.
Dip n grow being 1% IBA, 0.5% NAA.

I looked around and most of the websites all show the same pic of the ez rooter basket. I was looking for some confirmation that the 5 gallon version will fit well into a 5 gallon bucket- with luck, it should sit right on the rim.

I'm planning to leave the airstones from the RDWC in place in the bottoms of all the buckets I'm using. In order to avoid pinching the airline and to raise the inner bucket a bit, I'm using quart nursery cans upright in the bottom bucket. They're plenty sturdy and the holes around the bottom will allow for water movement.

Having just run the RDWC in place, I have all the active cooling gear a guy could want for this application, but I see no reason why it would be necessary. I will place a flat piece of reflective bubblewrap on top of the bucket to reduce heat gain and shade the rootzone. I'll cut a slit so it will fit around the stem.

I'm still having problems with getting my cuttings to survive- there are a lot of pathogens floating around my neck of the woods and it seems I don't have everyone's number just yet! I do have Dip-n-Grow, that's some good shit.