Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

[tweedy]

Not working, but what we have is confusion over units to use, not the ratio itself. The 1:.67 is confusing as hell, what's wrong with saying 3:2?!

Generally Accepted Units = weight
Mentioned last night; measuring by EC
Also mentioned; measuring by volume

http://jrpeters. word press .com/

Try that one. It's a post down from the top. Same deal with the spaces, again, if this is an issue of linking something that is invalid due to TOU, I apologize and meant nothing by it, just want to make the discussion clearer. Feel free to delete the post if necessary.

 

[Fresh Starts]

@HG23 Thanks for the detail. I'm interested in exact ratios to drive variability OUT of my setup. I use a gram scale to weigh my nutes, and with two buckets (one for calcium nitrate, the other for everything else) it is neither slow nor tedious.

http://www .jrpeters. com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-Pro/Specialty-Crop-Formulas/5-12-26-Hydroponic.html

Copy n Close the spaces to access the link to JRPeters' page on mixing Jacks 5-12-26. It did take a bit of digging around on their rather poorly organized website...

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I love jacks hydro don't you?:D
I was not advising against the weighing method at all.
Rather explaining an alternative that works for me and many others

Now lets get back to the topic at hand- defeating greedy nute companies at taking our moneys :greedy: and giving our plants a healthy life with JR Peters.

 

[ttystikk]

http://jrpeters. word press .com/

Try that one. It's a post down from the top. Same deal with the spaces, again, if this is an issue of linking something that is invalid due to TOU, I apologize and meant nothing by it, just want to make the discussion clearer. Feel free to delete the post if necessary.

Copied from the word press site;
"The 5-12-26 + Calcium Nitrate is a great vegetative fertilizer if you need to modify your nitrogen needs or to fit in with your specific water types. This combo can be used to grow a wide range of crops from lettuces, herbs, and fruiting crops. In its simplest formula you can mix ½ tsp. of each product in a gallon of water. I generally do not recommend this rate, but if you only need a small amount, it works. To make 10 gallons of solution follow this formula:
In 10 gallons of water, dissolve 1.3 ounces of 5-12-26, when that is totally dissolved add 1 tablespoon of Epsom salts for extra Magnesium and Sulfur. Finally add in .86 ounces of Calcium Nitrate. This will give you 150ppm of Nitrogen, which is the perfect rate for growing hydroponically."

If I ran the company, I'd have this punk's balls on a stick for mixing weight and volume in mixing instructions!

Converting from oz to grams, this would have us use 2.43g/gal of calcium nitrate and 4.07g/gal of Jacks. Wtf happened to 3-2-1?

 

[ttystikk]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I love jacks hydro don't you?:D
I was not advising against the weighing method at all.
Rather explaining an alternative that works for me and many others

Now lets get back to the topic at hand- defeating greedy nute companies at taking our moneys :greedy: and giving our plants a healthy life with JR Peters.

I Don't want you to get the idea I'm badgering you and if you feel that way, please accept my apology.

As those here and elsewhere know, I'm on a lifelong search and destroy mission for the FACTS. As an unfortunate corollary to this quest, I've discovered just how often people are imprecise... often when they are trying to be the most clear and exact.

Imagine how annoyed I get when people try to be precise with me and just end up being more vague than ever! That is a personal flaw and no one's responsibility to fix but mine.

The above said, if JRPeters wants us to use a scale to weigh nutes, I'm fine with that. I want an exact method, as my RDWC tend to be too big for 'by guess and by golly' approaches.

 

[tweedy]

Copied from the word press site;
"The 5-12-26 + Calcium Nitrate is a great vegetative fertilizer if you need to modify your nitrogen needs or to fit in with your specific water types. This combo can be used to grow a wide range of crops from lettuces, herbs, and fruiting crops. In its simplest formula you can mix ½ tsp. of each product in a gallon of water. I generally do not recommend this rate, but if you only need a small amount, it works. To make 10 gallons of solution follow this formula:
In 10 gallons of water, dissolve 1.3 ounces of 5-12-26, when that is totally dissolved add 1 tablespoon of Epsom salts for extra Magnesium and Sulfur. Finally add in .86 ounces of Calcium Nitrate. This will give you 150ppm of Nitrogen, which is the perfect rate for growing hydroponically."

If I ran the company, I'd have this punk's balls on a stick for mixing weight and volume in mixing instructions!

Converting from oz to grams, this would have us use 2.43g/gal of calcium nitrate and 4.07g/gal of Jacks. Wtf happened to 3-2-1?

Do you have a spare 5 gallon bucket and plant you can try an A and B on to see the results of their veg recommendations by that weight vs your current 3-2-1? I'd be really curious to see the results. Also, can you plug those numbers into a nute calc to see what it comes up with? I know you're busy but I can't do it all from my phone. Ha.

 

[ttystikk]

Do you have a spare 5 gallon bucket and plant you can try an A and B on to see the results of their veg recommendations by that weight vs your current 3-2-1? I'd be really curious to see the results. Also, can you plug those numbers into a nute calc to see what it comes up with? I know you're busy but I can't do it all from my phone. Ha.

No spare plants here, sorry. I still need to get properly acquainted with doing nutrient calculations, myself. It's a blind spot.

FWIW, I'm going to fill a five gallon bucket with the above recommended solution strength and stick my EC meter in it. I'll let you know what it says, both before I put .5g/gal of epsom salts in it and after.

 

[Fresh Starts]

Copied from the word press site;
To make 10 gallons of solution follow this formula:
In 10 gallons of water, dissolve 1.3 ounces of 5-12-26, when that is totally dissolved add 1 tablespoon of Epsom salts for extra Magnesium and Sulfur. Finally add in .86 ounces of Calcium Nitrate. This will give you 150ppm of Nitrogen, which is the perfect rate for growing hydroponically."

Check this out.
.86/1.3=.6615388

When mixing by wieght we arrive at a (.66153) ratio which is VERY close to (.67) and is a "coincidence" as HG has said. Perhaps this is where we are missing each other.

What I'm curious about is to see how much ppm you're weighed nutes are mixing at and compare those numbers to mixing by EC and ppm in the first place.

 

[ttystikk]

Check this out.
.86/1.3=.6615388

When mixing by wieght we arrive at a (.66153) ratio which is VERY close to (.67) and is a "coincidence" as HG has said. Perhaps this is where we are missing each other.

What I'm curious about is to see how much ppm you're weighed nutes are mixing at and compare those numbers to mixing by EC and ppm in the first place.

To be clear, I'm not arguing the ratio.

I'm questioning whether using an ec meter is an accurate method of establishing an appropriate ratio. I believe that using the same ratio and a scale weighing dry salts will give a different ratio than doing the same thing using an ec meter. The reason why is that calcium nitrate will register at a different value per unit concentration than the Jacks on a meter.

 

[ttystikk]

So I ran the specific recommended ratio mentioned in the blog site in a 5 gallon bucket.
To recap; 4.071g/gal Jacks, 2.438g/gal calcium nitrate, no epsom salt needed.
Ratio by weight = 1.67:1
Comes out to 1.8 ec.

3-2-1 Ratio by weight = 1.5:1
EC came out low, needs adjusting

I've been using 2.5 Jacks, 2.0 calcium nitrate. Ratio by weight = 1.25:1
EC is low, and needs to be adjusted- which is the pain in the process.

As nice as my girls look now, I'm going to try the recommended ratio and see how she runs. Mixing will be easier because it hits my target ec dead on, even if the numbers are weirder. What's a smart phone for, if not as a pocket nutes calculator?

 

[Fresh Starts]

Nice. So you are now weighing it out @ 1.67:1 hydro/cal-nit? Or are you running it based on EC/ppm?

 

[ttystikk]

Nice. So you are now weighing it out @ 1.67:1 hydro/cal-nit? Or are you running it based on EC/ppm?

The Jacks Professional blog ratio was the same 1.67:1 and at 4.07g/gal Jacks : 2.44g/gal calcium nitrate their recipe yields precisely my desired 1.8 ec. I'm going to run this, after having run the other. It will make for a fair side by side, and the plants will tell us which they prefer!

I'll do it by weight, as recommended on the website.

 

[Chronic Monster]

whatcha guys think of this post? From yosmitesam(sp?)


I could not get high brix with Jack's. The problem is all the K they use and the fact that they use KNO3 to achieve it at the expense of CaNO3. This is the common hydro paradigm though.

If you get all of your NO3 from CaNO3 you can achieve a 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio with decent Mg levels...and then by limiting your K to basically equal levels as NO3 you do not lock out Mg with it.

This formula works very well in hydro or coco...

CaNO3...2.44 grams per gallon epsom...1.6 mkp....1.33

Plus the usual micro suspects. If memory serves it is 100-80-100-117-40-53 N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S.

In hydro you gotta keep the nutes in the 6-6.2 pH range...but once in the plant you will get close to 6.4 and at least over 10 on brix. Your plants will be far healthier than the normal hydro paradigm formulas.

I have used it in coco and a friend uses it in dwc...so it isn't speculation, it is experience.

 

[ttystikk]

@Chronic Monster I think Yosemite Sam didn't complete his formula in this post, so I couldn't see his ratios. I've recently been dealing with no fewer than three different recipes for Jacks Professional with calcium nitrate and (sometimes) epsom salts;

Recipe 1
Offered by a friend
2.5g Jacks
2.0g calcium nitrate
.5 g epsom salt
Ratio; 1.25:1 Mix and dilute to 1.8 EC

Recipe 2
Widely Accepted '3-2-1' Mix
3g Jacks
2g calcium nitrate
1g epsom salt
Ratio; 1.5:1

Recipe 3
Jacks blog/ recommended recipe
4.07g/gal Jacks
2.44g/gal calcium nitrate
Epsom salt optional
Ratio; 1.67:1 Mix; 1.8 EC

So what we have here is a Classic case of Jacks Professional Confusion! Notice that each recipe contains a different ratio of Jacks to calcium nitrate. Which would be better, and why? Might the low ratio be preferable for veg and a higher ratio better for bloom? Anyone got any thoughts on this?

 

[Bangarang]

I appreciate all the feedback to my question. I do not know if it has helped me but...ok.
Sorry for stirring the pot

 

[ttystikk]

I appreciate all the feedback to my question. I do not know if it has helped me but...ok.
Sorry for stirring the pot

Stirring up a good discussion is nothing you need to apologize for!

We're just trying to get to the bottom of the secret of Jacks here, lol.

 

[ttystikk]

Thought of the day;

Jacks recommended ratio; '1:.67', also known as 1.5:1, or 3:2, or the very 3-2-1 that people say is the standard Jacks recipe.

Yet, the Jacks blog gave a very specific recipe, one I've translated into grams per gallon;
4.07g/gal Jacks
2.44g/gal calcium nitrate
.5g/gal epsom salt, optional

Mixing the first two ingredients yields 1.8 EC, just what they recommend.

Problem is that 4.07/2.44=1.67:1, not the 1.5:1 the rest of the literature alludes to.

Now what?

I'm running the above mix in my setup for two weeks. I'll let y'all know what happens!

 

[Camdawg]

PLOT TWIST!

I'm going with the 321 due to simplicity. I prefer weighing to volume measure it's more natural for me.

Subd to see what ttystikk finds

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Ya I've been simply weighing the 3 out at 3-2-1 and diluting as needed...Working very well so far

 

[ttystikk]

PLOT TWIST!

I'm going with the 321 due to simplicity. I prefer weighing to volume measure it's more natural for me.

Subd to see what ttystikk finds

Ya I've been simply weighing the 3 out at 3-2-1 and diluting as needed...Working very well so far

That's where I started, but I was adding a bunch of cal-mag too, and that's a no-no, at least when running very low ec. I basically starved my plants to death.

In an intensive growroom, with high levels of light, the plants need stronger feed. We will see what the Jacks blog numbers produce.

 

[Chronic Monster]

can someone point me in the direction of a good thread how to calculate nutrient profiles explained for an idiot, im retarted how exactly do i figure out the exact ppms of each nutrient based of the label?

look for carl carlsons posts, he does great work with jacks.... lemme look i might hav ea profile in my docs.

yep i have it (this is with the additional calcium nitrate that goes with jacks)...


GUARANTEED ANALYSIS F1313 Total nitrogen (N) .......................................................... 5%
5.00% nitrate nitrogen Available phosphate (P2O5) ............................................. 12% Soluble potash (K2O) ...................................................... 26%

130 oz / 1000 gal
3705 g / 3785 l

3705000 mg / 3785 l = 979 ppm

N 979 X .05 = 48.95
P 979 X .12 = 117.48
K 979 X .26 = 254.54

N 49+ 101 = 150
P 118 X .436 = 51
K 254.54 X .83 = 211

Actual available PPM:
N 150
P 51
K 211

Or 3-1-4

c