Owlfarm
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Yes they did mention adding Epsom in with the 10-30-20
Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients
S
shonuff305
- 37
- 8
What about jungle grow
Lurkin4yrs
- 781
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Capulator
likes to smell trees.
Supporter
- 6,070
- 313
@MGRox CaCl2 can be added in up to around .25 grams per gallon. It is roughly .01 gram of CaCl2 to get 1 ppm of Ca. .25 will give you an extra 25 ppm Ca without putting in too much Cl. That is what I used when I was trying to add more Ca on the jacks 3-2-1 program.
I added in the Agsil because I felt my plants were lacking K. I wanted to bump that up, and since I was nto using any silica at the time I decided Agsil was the best way to do that. I'm no expert. I just fuck around.
With the new gavitas I am finding that I can't drop the N out so much and so early, or I will get early yellowing that I don't like. I don't want the leaves on the buds themselves going yellow as it ruins bag appeal and can cause mold issues from decaying matter in the budsite.
I added in the Agsil because I felt my plants were lacking K. I wanted to bump that up, and since I was nto using any silica at the time I decided Agsil was the best way to do that. I'm no expert. I just fuck around.
With the new gavitas I am finding that I can't drop the N out so much and so early, or I will get early yellowing that I don't like. I don't want the leaves on the buds themselves going yellow as it ruins bag appeal and can cause mold issues from decaying matter in the budsite.
jimmy the hat
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I tried that..... adding just the 10-30-20 and Epson.....the buds swelled but overall plant health declined..... Im seeing a steady balanced diet start to flush is giving me the healthiest plants.
Herb Forester
- 766
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I've had this same experience and now add amino N when cutting No3 and MAP. Have you seen effects from too much Cl? I've wondered if it's the limiting element for using Sea90 and other seawater products.
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MGRox
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I hope this is not butting in to respond here, but I have one personal case with this and just read through a couple of pages that talk about this some (just happened to be reading these and remembered your question).
here's 2 pages that aren't that large but talks some of toxicities and the antagonism with Cl2 and NO3. LINK / LINK
"In kiwi fruit, the severity of leaf necrosis following potassium chloride (KCl) application was attributed not to Cl toxicity but rather to N deficiency, enhanced by competition between Cl and NO3 (nitrate) (Buwalda and Smith, 1991)."
here is one looking from the perspective of reducing nitrate in food we eat caused by over-fertilization. of note here would be the suggestion of using cloride to reduce nitrate levels in plant tissues prior to harvest (chloride flush lol). LINK
"Interaction of chloride uptake with the uptake of nitrate and other nutrients has been reviewed by Xu et al. (2000). Chapagain et al. (2003) have shown that fruit nitrate decreases and chloride increases upon increasing the chloride concentration in the nutrient solution; this agrees with the earlier findings on antagonism between the chloride and nitrate uptake in plants, especially in the foliar tissues."
The one personal case I'm familiar with relates to an "old timer" I know. He always did 5 gal buckets with miracle-gro soil and tap water the whole way through; under a 400w HPS (flowered 2 at a time) (OG NL#1) he's not the type to ever talk about or ask questions, but came to me once in a panic as his girls had quickly shown problems. Within 3 days, they got light green...then yellow and then brown; From the TOP down. long story short; many cities will periodically "backflush" water lines to clean out build ups. When they do this (as with new water systems in housing editions) they add chlorine to sterilize anything that might break free and chlorine levels can get fairly high from the tap for 1-2 days. Well, this lucky guy had watered right after a backflush and caused a Cl toxicity and he lost those plants. One of those cases where flushing won't help...heh.
tr;dl
Chlorine is antagonistic to nitrate and can replace nitrate in leaf tissues. Early Chlorine toxicities can appear as a nitrate deficiency followed by yellowing and necrosis.
Sorry to have links and to be longer. Also I hope this isn't derailing the thread in any way. Hope this helps.
Fresh Starts
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I'm curious what the chlorine concentrations are at for the antagonisms to take place.
MGRox
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I had to do a bit of looking here. Well pretty much any concentration, if you can buy that. LINK
"Another aspect of Cl nutrition is that increasing levels of CI in plants are associated with decreasing levels of NO,,-N and vice versa (1,2,6,9,10,12,13).Thus, there is a antgonism or negative interaction between theswe two ions in nutrient absoption."
.....
"From the results presented here it appears that the antagonism clearly manifests itself under field conditions too. It is apparent also that this phenomenon has important implications in assesing either soil test N as an index of N availability or petiole NO3 as an indicator of the N nutritional status of the plant."
....
"The way in which the antagonism expresses itself can be related to the background concentrations of NO3 and Cl in the soil."
as an aside I suppose here is a small one that talks of chlorine and give some approximations to ppms in soil also. LINK
"Most of the soils in Canada are between 6 to 15 ppm of chloride with 8 to 10 ppm being the norm. Chlorides less than 15 are considered low and crops will respond to additional chloride. Cereal crops will respond to up to 30 ppm of chloride."
mojavegreen
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as am i...
MGRox
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hmmm. Ok I'm not sure that an answer of XX ppm can be provided; if that's what is being asked. The previous post, I suppose, does at least make a correlation without to much technical info. E.G. if antagonism occurs at field conditions and that field conditions in canada are between 8-10ppm; then antagonism could occur at 8-10ppm.
Like so many elements that are antagonistic to each other (Mulder's Wheel) ; it's not completely about the level of a single element, but rather the relationship between the levels of Both ions that are in question. Fwiw, I can try to provide more info and even an equation that has been developed, but this extra info still will not give a specific ppm. So, I can add some more info to discern what is going on with the antagonism; but a specific point cannot be defined per se.
First to try and better describe what is happening;
LINK
"The inhibition of NO3 uptake by Cl depends on the plant species and the concentrations of both NO3 and Cl in the uptake medium (Cerezoet al.,1997). In root cells, the high-affinity, saturable system for NO3 uptake that operates at small NO3concentrations (Siddiqiet al., 1990) is inhibited byhigh external Cl, whereas the low-affinity linear system that operates at high NO3 concentrations seems to be inhibited by high internal Cl"
....
"In kiwi fruit, the severity of leaf necrosis following KCl application was attributed not to Cl toxicity but rather to N deficiency enhanced by competition between Cl and NO3 (Buwalda and Smith, 1991)"
....
"Bar et al. (1997) suggested that while both Cl and NO3 anions are taken upby the root against their electrochemical gradient, NO3 is reduced after uptake whereas Cl maintains its negative charge. As a result, the active uptake of Cl is reduced as the Cl electrochemical potential gradient builds up during its accumulation."
Another page gives a rather shorter but similar explanation
LINK
"The most common anion antagonism is between Cl- and NO3-. High Cl supply in the nutrient medium lowers the nitrate uptake and vice versa (Mengel and Kirkby, 1987). The anionic interactions between NO3 and Cl have been interpreted as non-specific replacement effects and not as carrier competition processes (Mengel and Kirkby, 1987)."
because this interaction is related to the individual levels of these 2 ions, varying these two levels can also have beneficial effects via this antagonism.
(taken from first link above)
"On the other hand, chlorosis resulting from NO3- induced Fe deficiency in avocado root stocks could be prevented by increasing the Cl levels"
...
"Chloride application may be used as a strategy to decrease the NO3 content of vegetables (Liu and Shelp, 1996), particularly in plants such as spinach, lettuce and cabbage, which are classified as NO3 accumulators ( Maynard et al., 1976). The strategy of applying KCl instead of KNO3 at the reproductive stages may also be suitable to other crops, such as tomatoes; this would prevent unnecessary vegetative growth caused by excess N (Hand and Fussell, 1995). Bar et al. (1997) found that increasing NO3 concentration from 2 to 16 mM in the irrigation solution that contained 16 mM of Cl, relieved Cl toxicity symptoms in avocado leaves (Fig. 3.10; Plate 3.1). Increased Cl availability could increase the optimal application rate of N fertilizer for potatoes (James et al., 1970). Supply of KCl or CaCl2 and maintaining suitable NO3: Cl ratio can enhance the production of better quality carrots via decreasing the NO3 content of the carrot without causing reductions in the yield"
Last here I found a paper that was attempting to model K and NO3 kinetics in the presence of varying NaCl solutions. From the paper there is an equation developed to approximate this non-competitive antagonism that Cl and NO3 have.
LINK
Fig. 4 The effect of different NaCl levels on the relationship between NO3− concentration and NO3 uptake
From the discussion at the end:
"As reported in Fig.2 nitrate absorption was severely inhibited by the presence of NaCl in the nutrient solution. The increase of NaCl concentration in the cultivation medium is typically coupled with a decrease of NO3− uptake and tissue concentration (Grattan and Grieve1999). Moreover, the presence of Cl− in the external medium inhibits NO3− absorption, and decreased NO3− uptake is generally accompanied by a high Cl− uptake and accumulation within plant tissues (Grattan and Grieve1999; Parida et al. 2004). Therefore in the presence of NaCl, NO3− uptake would be mainly inhibited by the antagonist action exerted by Cl− ; nevertheless the literature is quite heterogeneous with regard to this issue"
It does not appear, outside of the above formula or the previous statement of all levels, that a specific ppm of Cl could ever be given as a antagonistic level; since it is also dependent on NO3 at the same time (both internal and external). I suppose the chart linked in my previous post at least gave acceptable soil Cl levels, may be the best to be found easily.
I'm just adding this stuff to try and help or give a better understanding, but still may not satisfy what is being asked. I don't want to get this thread off-course with all this either. Maybe if this is something that needs discussed more it should be continued in a separate thread? Hopefully this helps some though and, at least, has been enjoyable to "dig around" and learn. Sorry to have another long post and to distract from the main subject. Also, I apologize if this still isn't answering the question correctly.
Like so many elements that are antagonistic to each other (Mulder's Wheel) ; it's not completely about the level of a single element, but rather the relationship between the levels of Both ions that are in question. Fwiw, I can try to provide more info and even an equation that has been developed, but this extra info still will not give a specific ppm. So, I can add some more info to discern what is going on with the antagonism; but a specific point cannot be defined per se.
First to try and better describe what is happening;
LINK
"The inhibition of NO3 uptake by Cl depends on the plant species and the concentrations of both NO3 and Cl in the uptake medium (Cerezoet al.,1997). In root cells, the high-affinity, saturable system for NO3 uptake that operates at small NO3concentrations (Siddiqiet al., 1990) is inhibited byhigh external Cl, whereas the low-affinity linear system that operates at high NO3 concentrations seems to be inhibited by high internal Cl"
....
"In kiwi fruit, the severity of leaf necrosis following KCl application was attributed not to Cl toxicity but rather to N deficiency enhanced by competition between Cl and NO3 (Buwalda and Smith, 1991)"
....
"Bar et al. (1997) suggested that while both Cl and NO3 anions are taken upby the root against their electrochemical gradient, NO3 is reduced after uptake whereas Cl maintains its negative charge. As a result, the active uptake of Cl is reduced as the Cl electrochemical potential gradient builds up during its accumulation."
Another page gives a rather shorter but similar explanation
LINK
"The most common anion antagonism is between Cl- and NO3-. High Cl supply in the nutrient medium lowers the nitrate uptake and vice versa (Mengel and Kirkby, 1987). The anionic interactions between NO3 and Cl have been interpreted as non-specific replacement effects and not as carrier competition processes (Mengel and Kirkby, 1987)."
because this interaction is related to the individual levels of these 2 ions, varying these two levels can also have beneficial effects via this antagonism.
(taken from first link above)
"On the other hand, chlorosis resulting from NO3- induced Fe deficiency in avocado root stocks could be prevented by increasing the Cl levels"
...
"Chloride application may be used as a strategy to decrease the NO3 content of vegetables (Liu and Shelp, 1996), particularly in plants such as spinach, lettuce and cabbage, which are classified as NO3 accumulators ( Maynard et al., 1976). The strategy of applying KCl instead of KNO3 at the reproductive stages may also be suitable to other crops, such as tomatoes; this would prevent unnecessary vegetative growth caused by excess N (Hand and Fussell, 1995). Bar et al. (1997) found that increasing NO3 concentration from 2 to 16 mM in the irrigation solution that contained 16 mM of Cl, relieved Cl toxicity symptoms in avocado leaves (Fig. 3.10; Plate 3.1). Increased Cl availability could increase the optimal application rate of N fertilizer for potatoes (James et al., 1970). Supply of KCl or CaCl2 and maintaining suitable NO3: Cl ratio can enhance the production of better quality carrots via decreasing the NO3 content of the carrot without causing reductions in the yield"
Last here I found a paper that was attempting to model K and NO3 kinetics in the presence of varying NaCl solutions. From the paper there is an equation developed to approximate this non-competitive antagonism that Cl and NO3 have.
LINK
Fig. 4 The effect of different NaCl levels on the relationship between NO3− concentration and NO3 uptake
From the discussion at the end:
"As reported in Fig.2 nitrate absorption was severely inhibited by the presence of NaCl in the nutrient solution. The increase of NaCl concentration in the cultivation medium is typically coupled with a decrease of NO3− uptake and tissue concentration (Grattan and Grieve1999). Moreover, the presence of Cl− in the external medium inhibits NO3− absorption, and decreased NO3− uptake is generally accompanied by a high Cl− uptake and accumulation within plant tissues (Grattan and Grieve1999; Parida et al. 2004). Therefore in the presence of NaCl, NO3− uptake would be mainly inhibited by the antagonist action exerted by Cl− ; nevertheless the literature is quite heterogeneous with regard to this issue"
It does not appear, outside of the above formula or the previous statement of all levels, that a specific ppm of Cl could ever be given as a antagonistic level; since it is also dependent on NO3 at the same time (both internal and external). I suppose the chart linked in my previous post at least gave acceptable soil Cl levels, may be the best to be found easily.
I'm just adding this stuff to try and help or give a better understanding, but still may not satisfy what is being asked. I don't want to get this thread off-course with all this either. Maybe if this is something that needs discussed more it should be continued in a separate thread? Hopefully this helps some though and, at least, has been enjoyable to "dig around" and learn. Sorry to have another long post and to distract from the main subject. Also, I apologize if this still isn't answering the question correctly.
cc503
- 62
- 8
what about using calcium carbonate like what is found in Nectar for the gods ph up? would that get around the antagonism of cl?
MGRox
- 597
- 143
Great question! If we take a look at the last page from the first Link in my previous post (Potassium and Chloride in Higher Plants) you can see that Ca will reduce Cl levels in leaf tissue via holding that level more in the roots.
"The distribution of Cl in the plants suggests that a high external Ca level increased Cl accumulation in the basal stem and roots, reduced the transport of Cl from the roots to the leaves, and increased photosynthesis and stomatal conductance"
It should be pointed out that most salt tolerant plants (in part) are that way via an ability to keep high Cl levels isolated to the roots vs being transported to leaf tissues. So this Ca interaction would be similar to a natural response of a salt tolerant variety. Cannabis is considered salt tolerant and "most likely" has an ability to keep Cl in roots if needed.
The downside for your question though. Since (as quoted above) Cl is interacting with N channel root cells, then lowering leaf tissue concentration most likely will not affect the antagonism.
I suppose last here, something that should maybe be considered. There are many antagonism's with the various elements we use and even a few synergies. Most of these things, with a balanced formula, are not going to be large enough to cause issues.
Specifically if we look at this Nitrate and Chlorine antagonism. There is no need for any great amount of Cl, so there probably won't ever be any visible antagonism from this. If we assume say 2 ppm's of Cl in the medium; the maximum NO3 uptake that could be prevented, would not be more than 100-150% (max) of the "weight" of Cl absorbed. Essentially it would not offset more than 2-3 ppms of nitrate uptake if Cl was 2 ppms. So, although this antagonism does exist, it should be of no concern for our situations. If someone really wanted to "counter" that loss, one could use a ammonium source for this 2-3 ppms (or larger portion of N).
hope this helps
cc503
- 62
- 8
I'm confused at how you are getting such a high S if the only source of S is from your epsom, with S at 12.9% and adding one gram/ gal im gettting a S value around 35???
jimmy the hat
- 202
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The k2so4(potassium sulfate)....pretty sure there is some in the hydrosol as well
KtidyFarms
- 57
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Ok I'm going to ask a pretty dumb question for this thread but I'm just getting back into growing and hope to know as much about my nutes as you guys do soon but for right now need to keep it as simple as possible. So back in the day when I had a double car garage filled with about 150 plants one side grow and the other side flower I used 40% black gold and 40% perlite and 20% vermiculite as growing medium and peters 20-20-20 for the grow cycle and peters blossom booster(5-50-17) for the flower cycle and always had awesome results. So my question is for simplicity has anyone tried the new start formula(9-45-15) which is much closer to the old blossom booster formula before they banned it due to people making bombs with it. I would think this would still be a bomb potential but they probally changed the phosphate so the oxygen isn't so unstable. Any how not sure any thoughts. Please be kind just trying to relearn things here.
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jimmy the hat
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The 5-12-26
jimmy the hat
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I wrote my response in the last few lines of the quote.....I will stop now, sorry
ivyboy1225
- 94
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You can combine the epsom with Jacks/MAP/k2SO4? So effectively it's just that bottle and one bottle of CHNO3 and maybe CACL2
jimmy the hat
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