Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

[ttystikk]

not sure if it has been mentioned, but Ca25 is Triacontranol (or something similarly spelled)

Yeah, Capulator mentioned that, and he says its effect is to accelerate growth when used as a foliar spray. Sounds like I could skip a stage or two if I use it, and that sounds pretty attractive!

 

[Capulator]

not sure if it has been mentioned, but Ca25 is Triacontranol (or something similarly spelled)

It's also calcium. I originally used it to battle a Ca deficiency without adding anything extra to the res.

 

[TylerDurden119]

Best thread i've read yet.

In short im definitely gona check out this JR line but im surprised no ones mentioned the "6 pack". My dad used to use this and its what i started out using.

Calcium Nitrate Veg 2 1/2 Bloom 2

Potassium Sulphate Veg 1/6 Bloom 1

Potassium Nitrate Veg 3/4 Bloom 0

Mono Potassium Phosphate Veg 3/4 Bloom 3

Magnesium Sulfate Veg 2 3/4 Bloom 3

minor veg 1/3 Bloom 1/3

thas the first recipe i have in TABLESPOONS per 5 Gal pail

the second recipe is from the grow shop and its in TEASPOONS per 10 L. I'm not gona do the math but clearly the grow shop is

same chemicals in the same order

1. veg 2 1/2 Bloom 2
2. veg 1/6 Bloom 1
3. veg 5/6 Bloom 0
4. veg 5/8 Bloom 3/4
5. veg 2 3/4 Bloom 2 7/8
6. veg 1/5 Bloom 1/6

i found these recipe sheets after reading the post about the drops of liquid eminating from the plant. I remember my plants doin this when i first started out.

I think once my cns runs out I'll give both a run, side by side and see whats up.

I'm not sure what the numbers work out too but it seems pretty close to the 3/1/4

 

[kushtrees]

im making the switch to jacks i couldnt help it after looking through the hydro store. I was on their website and saw their trace element blend, was wonderin if anyone uses it. Im using RO so I thought it might be nice to add

Right now the plan is...
3g jacks hydro
2g cal nitrate
.5g epsom salt

Im really either way on the trace just was wonderin if its needed or not worth the extra 40 bucks, thanks all for this awesome thread

 

[Capulator]

im making the switch to jacks i couldnt help it after looking through the hydro store. I was on their website and saw their trace element blend, was wonderin if anyone uses it. Im using RO so I thought it might be nice to add

Right now the plan is...
3g jacks hydro
2g cal nitrate
.5g epsom salt

Im really either way on the trace just was wonderin if its needed or not worth the extra 40 bucks, thanks all for this awesome thread

I just ordered their trace elements (MOST). It was recommended to me by the rep to use if you are using RO water.

 

[ttystikk]

im making the switch to jacks i couldnt help it after looking through the hydro store. I was on their website and saw their trace element blend, was wonderin if anyone uses it. Im using RO so I thought it might be nice to add

Right now the plan is...
3g jacks hydro
2g cal nitrate
.5g epsom salt

Im really either way on the trace just was wonderin if its needed or not worth the extra 40 bucks, thanks all for this awesome thread

The lady I spoke to at JRPeters was very clear that the Jacks Professional Hydroponic 5-12-26 had the MOST already built in. All I needed to have a complete hydroponic fertilizer was calcium nitrate, and that even the epsom salt was unnecessary. I specifically asked that very question and that's the answer I got from her. I'd consider that the word from the source...

Most of what an RO filtration system removes is calcium, and a very small amount of a few other, mostly random, materials. Iron, for instance. If your TDS is high, then definitely use an RO device. If it's low, you can generally get away with not using one. The exception to this rule is if you're running an organic approach with beneficial bacteria in the water. In this case, adding straight tapwater from nearly any municipality will kill your bennies, due to the chlorine and chloramines added to it to keep it fresh on its way to your house. In that case, you can either use an RO, or you can simply pour enough for your needs into a big tub or trash can and toss in an airstone. Let it run for several hours to a day and the chlorine will be gone, along with most of the chloramines.

 

[ttystikk]

I just ordered their trace elements (MOST). It was recommended to me by the rep to use if you are using RO water.

Okay, that's weird- we both got directly conflicting answers from JRPeters? Tell you what- you use the MOST, I won't, and compare notes?

I started on the Jacks to keep things simple for me. About the only thing I've added is Superthrive, for the B vitamins.

 

[Capulator]

Okay, that's weird- we both got directly conflicting answers from JRPeters? Tell you what- you use the MOST, I won't, and compare notes?

I started on the Jacks to keep things simple for me. About the only thing I've added is Superthrive, for the B vitamins.

I dont know what strain you are running but you probably want to get some epsom salts. They recommend it on the label for Mg hungry plants, and if you are growing a kushy strain, you are definitely going to see Mg deficiencies after a little while. My tangerine which is a pure sativa is requiring an additional 1/2 gram/gallon epsom (about 10 extra ppm Mg).

Also, the hydro blend is formulated for use with tap water, not RO. It is relying on minerals in the tap water which RO WILL filter becasue RO filters DO remove minerals, not just Ca and Fe. So yes it has some MOST, but not quite enough (according to JR peters) if you are running your base water through an RO.

 

[GreenThumbBill]

The lady I spoke to at JRPeters was very clear that the Jacks Professional Hydroponic 5-12-26 had the MOST already built in. All I needed to have a complete hydroponic fertilizer was calcium nitrate, and that even the epsom salt was unnecessary. I specifically asked that very question and that's the answer I got from her. I'd consider that the word from the source...

Most of what an RO filtration system removes is calcium, and a very small amount of a few other, mostly random, materials. Iron, for instance. If your TDS is high, then definitely use an RO device. If it's low, you can generally get away with not using one. The exception to this rule is if you're running an organic approach with beneficial bacteria in the water. In this case, adding straight tapwater from nearly any municipality will kill your bennies, due to the chlorine and chloramines added to it to keep it fresh on its way to your house. In that case, you can either use an RO, or you can simply pour enough for your needs into a big tub or trash can and toss in an airstone. Let it run for several hours to a day and the chlorine will be gone, along with most of the chloramines.

A) do you have a name of the person you spoke with at JR Peters? I have some questions for them but the lady I spoke with the other day was pretty much useless. She didn't seem to know anything. I called and asked for tech support twice. Got the same lady both times.

B) For growers who don't have a crazy high tds and want to run organic without the pain of converting to RO, a tallboy filter from hydrologic with added KD85 filter will remove 99% of chlorine and chloramines. It's what I do.

 

[max_well]

target % of micros

Here is a link to Jack's 5-12-26 guaranteed analysis:

Do those percentages for micros seem high enough (when used at ~ 3gram/ gal)?
Here is their micro mix


any thoughts?

 

[ttystikk]

Peters People and Pieces Parts

A) do you have a name of the person you spoke with at JR Peters? I have some questions for them but the lady I spoke with the other day was pretty much useless. She didn't seem to know anything. I called and asked for tech support twice. Got the same lady both times.

Ask for Linda. She sounded plenty knowlegable when I spoke with her.

B) For growers who don't have a crazy high tds and want to run organic without the pain of converting to RO, a tallboy filter from hydrologic with added KD85 filter will remove 99% of chlorine and chloramines. It's what I do.

Good advice, like this. I got my RO as part of a package deal, yet I don't really need it where I live because the TDS is only like 40ppm.

 

[ttystikk]

I dont know what strain you are running but you probably want to get some epsom salts. They recommend it on the label for Mg hungry plants, and if you are growing a kushy strain, you are definitely going to see Mg deficiencies after a little while. My tangerine which is a pure sativa is requiring an additional 1/2 gram/gallon epsom (about 10 extra ppm Mg).

I am running the mother of all salad grows- I just did a strain count, and came up with 17... seriously. Snowblind recommended using some epsom so I do, at 1g/gal currently.

Also, the hydro blend is formulated for use with tap water, not RO. It is relying on minerals in the tap water which RO WILL filter becasue RO filters DO remove minerals, not just Ca and Fe. So yes it has some MOST, but not quite enough (according to JR peters) if you are running your base water through an RO.

You're absolutely right, of course. I was not at all clear- I was trying to say that the largest component of water hardness in most areas is calcium, with smaller amounts of other materials such as iron also present. In fact, one reason why Kentuckey is so popular for making whiskey is because the spring water there is naturally iron free, which is apparently very unusual. Since I'm in an area where TDS is very low, like 40ppm, do you think I'd also benefit from MOST? As I mentioned above, when I called JRPeters, Linda told me I needn't bother with it- but now you're making me wonder.

I only use my RO for certain fairly specific purposes, such as mixing dry ferts before pouring it into my RDWC, filling ebb n flow reservoirs, and my EZcloner, just to scrub the chlorine out. For filling and topping up my RDWC, the tap water here is fine. I currently run sterile, and I have been considering an organic approach- if that happens, then I'll be using a lot more RO water!

 

[organicness]

I'm using RO/DI water without MOST and holy freakin' cow I've never seen roots like these. The growth is spectacular! Albeit I'm fairly new to the game of canna (ive been in traditional ag for years) the results I'm getting right now without the MOST is something I can't imagine being much better. But.... maybe it could be, and then I'd really freak out.

•••

One other Q I had was, are you folks doing anything special for root stimulators when running from seed or even cuttings? I didn't know if there was a cheap alternative to things like rhizotonic or what-have-you. I was using clonex and saw even half strength was giving me crazy high ppm's that I didn't like one bit, nor did the seedlings like. Right now I'm just on the jacks mix diluted down to 100ppm, with a dash of superthrive. Didn't know if there was something else that you'd found to be killer for getting the roots really kicking into gear, 'cause I think my plants could be growing faster in the seedling stage.

Thanks!

 

[max_well]

using Jack's, recurring deficiency . Micronute?

I have been having some deficiency show up ~week 2-3 of flower . Mid and upper fan leaves showing some interveinal chlorosis, which evolves into an overall lime/yellowing, without leaf loss. I'm in ebb flow recirculating in buckets , hydroton, using Jack's hydroponic nutrient at ~3 grams /gal , ~1.8-2 grams/ gal CalNit + 0.5-1 gram /gal-- EC 1.6-1.7, pH 5.5-6.0. Plants still finish pretty nice and yield well, but resin isn't what I think it could be if deficiency gets corrected. Strain was a mislabel from a dispensary , but I believe it's Casey Jones .
Environment is sealed, conditions are right on target, 1000 watt bulbs. The plants / leaves getting the highest light intensity definitely show the deficiency first, most pronounced, while lower growth / perimeter plants remain much more green-- suggesting need for higher nutrient concentration?. But there is also some tip burn/deadening on the affected leaves. Pic on right is a leaf in the early stage of deficiency, on the left is a lower leaf for comparison. I'll try to get some good shots in the room later.
Any thought are appreciated!

 

[TylerDurden119]

Best thread i've read yet.

In short im definitely gona check out this JR line but im surprised no ones mentioned the "6 pack". My dad used to use this and its what i started out using.

Calcium Nitrate Veg 2 1/2 Bloom 2

Potassium Sulphate Veg 1/6 Bloom 1

Potassium Nitrate Veg 3/4 Bloom 0

Mono Potassium Phosphate Veg 3/4 Bloom 3

Magnesium Sulfate Veg 2 3/4 Bloom 3

minor veg 1/3 Bloom 1/3

thas the first recipe i have in TABLESPOONS per 5 Gal pail

the second recipe is from the grow shop and its in TEASPOONS per 10 L. I'm not gona do the math but clearly the grow shop is

same chemicals in the same order

1. veg 2 1/2 Bloom 2
2. veg 1/6 Bloom 1
3. veg 5/6 Bloom 0
4. veg 5/8 Bloom 3/4
5. veg 2 3/4 Bloom 2 7/8
6. veg 1/5 Bloom 1/6

i found these recipe sheets after reading the post about the drops of liquid eminating from the plant. I remember my plants doin this when i first started out.

I think once my cns runs out I'll give both a run, side by side and see whats up.

I'm not sure what the numbers work out too but it seems pretty close to the 3/1/4

so i'm thinking these recipes may be a lil off. The one from my dad is most likely supposed to be in teaspoons per 5 gal and the one from the grow shop is most likely in the same 5 gal. sorry for confusion. i can't edit the post for some reason :S

 

[H3AD_CAS3]

The consensus is to use epsom salt with this nutrient line at .5 -1gram per gallon, depending on the plants need for magnesium. If this doesn't fix your problem I suspect some type of pest infestation (root aphids???)

I have been having some deficiency show up ~week 2-3 of flower . Mid and upper fan leaves showing some interveinal chlorosis, which evolves into an overall lime/yellowing, without leaf loss. I'm in ebb flow recirculating in buckets , hydroton, using Jack's hydroponic nutrient at ~3 grams /gal , ~1.8-2 grams/ gal CalNit + 0.5-1 gram /gal-- EC 1.6-1.7, pH 5.5-6.0. Plants still finish pretty nice and yield well, but resin isn't what I think it could be if deficiency gets corrected. Strain was a mislabel from a dispensary , but I believe it's Casey Jones .
Environment is sealed, conditions are right on target, 1000 watt bulbs. The plants / leaves getting the highest light intensity definitely show the deficiency first, most pronounced, while lower growth / perimeter plants remain much more green-- suggesting need for higher nutrient concentration?. But there is also some tip burn/deadening on the affected leaves. Pic on right is a leaf in the early stage of deficiency, on the left is a lower leaf for comparison. I'll try to get some good shots in the room later.
Any thought are appreciated!

 

[Capulator]

^^^ that looks a little like Mg or possibly Iron.




I switched my profile last night to the following:

2.8 grams hydro
1.2 grams CaNO3
7ml/ gal botanicare cal mag

and I added .1 G / gal of MOST

giving me the following profile:

N 125
P 39
K 160
Mg 70
S 64
Ca 119
Fe 4.1
B .7
Mn 2.4
Zn 1.3
Cu .7

The MOST at .1 brings my Boron levels closer to 1 ppm which is great, and the extra iron and copper I am sure wont hurt. With no MOST, the micro levels are quite low using RO water. I never paid attention before but when you add it you can see the dramatic difference in elemental ppms on the calculator.

The Cal mag allowed me to get my calcium up without raising my N too much

The plants after this at 5.6 pH drank about 40 gallon in 5 hours. Almost a gallon an hour per plant.

I will be ordering some individual salts to try to bring my Ca up to 125-150, because that is the deficiency that keeps popping up in my system.

 

[max_well]

thanks for the input guys..

I think it might be a micronutrient issue... I'm using close to a gram /gallon of Epsom so I don't imagine it's Mg, and Mg starts on lower leaves from what I've understood. It's my upper /middle leaves that are getting yellowed. I'm also using RO water. I don't have the MOST micro mix quickly available, so I am gonna use some EarthJuice microblast in the rez and see if that helps.

Capulator: in regards to your use of Botanicare CalMag+, I've been a little confused by their labeling. The source of Calcium is listed as Calcium Nitrate, but the 3% to 2% ratio of Ca to N in the analysis on the bottle suggests another (additional?) Ca source. I read you are thinking about adding Ca from CaCl2.. any more thought on this? I believe Calcium Chloride is suggested by JRpeters as a no-N Ca source

 

[Surfr]

thanks for the input guys..

I think it might be a micronutrient issue... I'm using close to a gram /gallon of Epsom so I don't imagine it's Mg, and Mg starts on lower leaves from what I've understood. It's my upper /middle leaves that are getting yellowed. I'm also using RO water. I don't have the MOST micro mix quickly available, so I am gonna use some EarthJuice microblast in the rez and see if that helps.

Capulator: in regards to your use of Botanicare CalMag+, I've been a little confused by their labeling. The source of Calcium is listed as Calcium Nitrate, but the 3% to 2% ratio of Ca to N in the analysis on the bottle suggests another (additional?) Ca source. I read you are thinking about adding Ca from CaCl2.. any more thought on this? I believe Calcium Chloride is suggested by JRpeters as a no-N Ca source

I have always found Magnesium deficiencies to start on the upper/middle growth.. I use Epsom for a long while but kept on getting deficiencies until I switched to some good old Cal/Mag nute..

 

[Capulator]

Max,

They may be using a different CaNO3 than the standard 15.5-0-0

I have 98% CaCl. I have not used it since I heard it would buffer pH up, but I would rather battle that than get more of a Ca def. so I am going to throw about .07 grams/gal in the res tonight to raise the Ca by about 25ppm.

In my opinion, the MOST is critical. The jacks hydro does not have enough Fe or B or Cu IMHO when running RO water.


with the 3g/2g and 1g MgSO4 ratio... Ca comes out under 100 ppm. I don't think its enough at all for my application (RDWC).

Also looking at ratios:

Poinsettia growers recommend a ratio of 4:2:1 K:Ca:Mg

The reason I compare Poinsettias to Cannabis is that they are both phototropic. That may mean nothing, but I have also seen other experienced growers as well as fatman talk about this ratio.


If you look at jacks full strength you get close to that ratio. 3.7 grams hydro, 2.5 grams CaNO3, no epsom. you would need to come up with 30 more ppm k to be on the mark, and then adjust N and P to balance.

Max, you are adding 25ppm Mg with 1 g/gal epsom. That fucks up your ratio.


Hitting the golden ratio is why many experienced growers turn to buying individual salts, because jacks comes close but doesn't quite hit the mark. With individual salts you can really dial in a strain (after all other environmental factors are A+)