Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

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organicness

organicness

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And, out of curiosity, why not just use the Morton Safe-t-Power ice melt. It meets the same specifications for food grade CaCl2, and what I've read (an am waiting on final word from Morton) that it's the Tetra94 CaCl2 pellets. That stuff is like $18 for 50# at home depot. 94-97% pure and to pass FCC standards for food use it has to be 93% or higher. Just a thought anyways.
 
organicness

organicness

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What kind of systen are you running? What is your media?

In my drain to waste coco I never got any deficiencies running a normal regimine. It was only in the RDWC that I got Ca problems.
I run low pressure aero, no media, just roots in a net cup. It all came on pretty quick about 30 days into flower.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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I run low pressure aero, no media, just roots in a net cup. It all came on pretty quick about 30 days into flower.

fatman runs aero and runs his nutes waaaaay diluted. YOu may be seeing a nute toxicity and not a Ca deficiency.
 
tokinupon1

tokinupon1

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hey guys, ive read through a tons of info in the last few weeks. Dont quite understand it all but in time hopefully ill grasp it. Anyways i want to give the jacks a try. im looking for a shopping list.... so i dont have to order more than once. also im dtw coco wasnt sure if one of their other mixes maybe was better for dtw? ive been reading people saying dtw just needs to be lower ratio to water, others say dtw needs an adjusted number different than the "golden numbers". hopefully you guys dont mind me asking stupid questions and hanging here.
 
organicness

organicness

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fatman runs aero and runs his nutes waaaaay diluted. YOu may be seeing a nute toxicity and not a Ca deficiency.
oh dang. Welp, I guess Ive gotta run and look through all of his stuff to see what he's running for EC in his final mix, see if I'm totally out of line. Thanks, again, for helping to set me straight. It's appreciated.
 
organicness

organicness

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These are two leaves from two different plants from the same rez. The rez did run super hot for 2 days, not temp hot, but at 2.8 EC. Totally spaced on it. That was when these started showing up. Before that everything was fantastic. Now I'm back around 1.4-1.6 EC. where things had been and were going great.
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

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Raw salts = ultimate power!!!!!

Veg was the standard jacks at 80%. 2.8 grams hydro, 2.0 grams CaNO3, 1 gram epsom.

I think that I ran my RDWC a little too hot. I went up to like 2.4 EC and I think that was too much without the extra Ca. I backed off this week down to about 1.4 EC using:

2.4 grams hydro
1.2 grams CaNO3
.23 grams CaCl2
.1 grams MOST

NO epsom. This puts my Mg:Ca ratio at 1:2... which according to crysmatic is good.

Still learning here, and probably shouldn't be experimenting with the MPB... but fuck it. :banana1sv6:

I do like the idea of adding the CaCl2, and I will proably continue to do that as long as I run a sterile res. I am not sure how the Cl would react with bennies... (even though it is in tap water).

My raw salts shodul be here this week, then I can really start playing around.

Many thanks, brother. Are you saying that epsom in veg is counterproductive?

I think chloride ions from CaCl2 and chlorine in bleach for pools is different, but I'm gonna go hit up my spa dude to find out for sure.

You get raw salts and you're gonna be DANGEROUS, bro!

Lastly, my girls recently into flower from a Jacks-fed veg stage are all showing signs of mild to moderate nitrogen deficiency. Is it too late, or can I do something? And how do you suggest I prevent it in future? I can't help but wonder if adding the epsom salt had something to do with it...
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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And, out of curiosity, why not just use the Morton Safe-t-Power ice melt. It meets the same specifications for food grade CaCl2, and what I've read (an am waiting on final word from Morton) that it's the Tetra94 CaCl2 pellets. That stuff is like $18 for 50# at home depot. 94-97% pure and to pass FCC standards for food use it has to be 93% or higher. Just a thought anyways.

Let me know what you find out. The picking crisp at the grocery store is like $7 for a lousy 8oz. It would be most helpful to find out what the 'impurities' consist of. If it's stuff like ammonium or mag, then no problem! If it's something nasty, that would be important to know too.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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hey guys, ive read through a tons of info in the last few weeks. Dont quite understand it all but in time hopefully ill grasp it. Anyways i want to give the jacks a try. im looking for a shopping list.... so i dont have to order more than once. also im dtw coco wasnt sure if one of their other mixes maybe was better for dtw? ive been reading people saying dtw just needs to be lower ratio to water, others say dtw needs an adjusted number different than the "golden numbers". hopefully you guys dont mind me asking stupid questions and hanging here.

Even if they were stupid questions, I'd patiently answer them. Yours, however, aren't stupid. I don't run coco, but if I were, I'd start with 1/2 strength, about 1.0 EC and then see where that gets you. As another option, since you have the ability to flush with plain water at anytime, is to alternate between standard strength and flushing with plain water... Either way, let the girls tell you what they like (ain't it always the way?!). If it's too strong, flush. If it seems weak, step it up.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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Even if they were stupid questions, I'd patiently answer them. Yours, however, aren't stupid. I don't run coco, but if I were, I'd start with 1/2 strength, about 1.0 EC and then see where that gets you. As another option, since you have the ability to flush with plain water at anytime, is to alternate between standard strength and flushing with plain water... Either way, let the girls tell you what they like (ain't it always the way?!). If it's too strong, flush. If it seems weak, step it up.

You can run coco DTW and will kill it. My plants didnt do well until I upped the EC to 2.2 when they were in their second week of flower. Before that I was runnign like 1.1 and they were showing signs of deficiencies.

also depends on the strain. My kosher kush and cannadential eat a shit load. If I give everyone the same diet, some thrive and some crap out.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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These are two leaves from two different plants from the same rez. The rez did run super hot for 2 days, not temp hot, but at 2.8 EC. Totally spaced on it. That was when these started showing up. Before that everything was fantastic. Now I'm back around 1.4-1.6 EC. where things had been and were going great.

Here Ill do you the favor:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191007&page=40

post #578 and #587

those are the posts for fatmans exact ppms veg and bloom, and the actual EC he runs.

At 1600 you are way too hot. He is at like 600 max bro.


Can you detail how you posted a picture of the calculator, and then I can post theveg and bloom formulas I am using?
 
tokinupon1

tokinupon1

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For sure thanks guys I'm going to give this jacks a run. Capulator in really looking forward to seeing your run with raw mixing. Is anyone using the other jr products with success or is the jacks pro the best mix? Going to do my ordering some time this week.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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For sure thanks guys I'm going to give this jacks a run. Capulator in really looking forward to seeing your run with raw mixing. Is anyone using the other jr products with success or is the jacks pro the best mix? Going to do my ordering some time this week.

I use these:
Jacks hydroponic 5-12-26
Calcium Nitrate 15.5-0-0-19
Calcium Chloride
Superthrive
...and the occasional foliar spray.

The proportions between them change between veg and bloom, but otherwise it's all the same shit, mang~

I run big RDWC systems, like 80 gallons each, and I change my water fairly rarely. Was gonna do it weekly, but then things worked out so well I just keep stacking until I get to peak bloom EC, at which point I start draining half the system's water and adding back plain.

So far, the only issues I have are finding the room for my plants as they grow so rapidly (some problem to have, right?), and some light colored leaves, like a nitrogen deficiency. Still dialing things in, tho-
 
R

raincheck

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After much work... it can't be any closer!

Per Capulator's thread he suggests a 3-1-4 veg and 2-1-4 flower.
Per Snowblind's and Crysmatic's post, high sulfur during flower...
Per spurr's (icmag) low p <30 >80ppm...
Per Cavadge and yosemitesam's posts on garden's cure k/mg 1:1..
Per BigMike's tissue analysis higher Ca during flower...

HERE is my nutrient profile!

Feel free to criticize..:sweating

veg14.jpg
flower3.jpg
 
Capulator

Capulator

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Man I was just about to post all of those guys profiles. I think your profle looks good but I woudl add the MOST and the Cl if you are using RO water.

There is a thread at IC where spurr says that the Ca:Mg ratio is meaningless. They dont really have an affect on one another. I am still looking in to this.
 
Capulator

Capulator

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Here are many of the posts by cavadge that I found of interest from my hydro notes word doc:

CAVADGE:
Forgive me for not being more specific. I've posted most of this in the past, and perhaps foolishly assumed people knew what I was referring to. Allow me to clarify...

I use Milwaukee Martini PH and TDS testers, with a conversion rate of 0.5. The PH pen cap is partially filled with storage solution to keep the probe wet. I calibrate the instruments every 10 to 14 days with solution.

The ratios I referred to were N-P-K. I began with 3-1-2 veg and 2-1-3 bloom based on a very old thread on another board by the fatman. Once I got hold of the nutrient calculator, it became clear that the suggested formulations of GH 3 part solution were nowhere near these values. So the journey began...

At this point I don't use GH Bloom at all. Only Gro, Micro, HW Micro, Liquid Kool Bloom, Cal Mag Plus, and Epsom Salt. Each of these pieces contain a different enough mix of elements that I can mix and match to give a good range of adjustment of the six main components - N, P, K, Ca, Mg and S.

Micro is the primary source of N. The two micros allow me to put the Ca levels where I want them. Regular Micro is 5% Ca, while the hardwater version is 1% Ca. I use a lot of Micro in the veg mix, so blending them gets the Ca number where I want it. I don't use Cal Mag in my veg mix.

The Liquid Kool Bloom is P and K, at a 1:2 ratio. This plugs in better all around than Bloom, which is why I don't use it anymore.

Gro has a lot of K and some N, so I do use a lot of it as well.

Most of the sulfur and magnesium comes from Epsom Salt. I have seen a definite improvement in overall plant health since I began using it.

Cal Mag is Ca, Mg and trace elements. Micro also has the trace elements - I use Cal Mag in my bloom mix to raise the Ca levels, as I'm not using as much Micro.

The other ratio I'm following, courtesy of this thread, is K - Ca - Mg of 4-2-1. However, whether it's my grow systems, strains, or envrionment, I have found better results with ratios in the vicinity of 3-2-1.

Below are the numbers and formulations I'm following. Now I suppose I'm rather backwards in my approach; I began with fatman numbers and just diluted the mixture to get the desired strength. So the actual concentration should be multiplied by the percentage strength being used.

I have a true aeroponic medium pressure misting system in use with my aerobuckets, which uses timed very short mist cycles and is a drain to waste system, as opposed to the aeroflo, a recirculating system. As such, I use a slightly weaker nutrient strength with the buckets. I am still improving upon my feeding strategy with the buckets; on my third grow now, better than before, but much room for improvement.

If I've learned anything, it's that the first 3 weeks of a clone's life when transplanted from the cloner into the grow system are the most critical and will determine the end result more than anything else. This is the area I'm addressing with the buckets.

The pictured plants were grown at a higher concentration, with a TDS around 800 to 900, and I noted some plants were showing deficiencies - at one point Ca (rust spots) and and at another K (browning along the edges). The current grow is using the same balance of nutrients but at a lower strength, and the plants are green and strong and have no signs of any problems at all. Most of us are aware of nutrient lockout, where too much of one element can inhibit uptake of another. But I've never been more aware of how easily this can happen than I am now.

As soon as flowering begins, I see PH drops in the aeroflos. They can be quite significant, sometimes requiring PH up additions twice in one day. The current grow, with a lower strength, is showing much slower and less severe drops, requiring PH up perhaps every other day.

This is significant, in that I'm using much less K than before, yet the plants are doing better and not showing any K deficiency. I can only conclude at this point that using a higher strength mix resulted in some Ca lockout at one point, and K lockout later in the previous grow. I now view this as less is more.

I should mention that I use RO water. Tap water would be a different animal, due to the Ca levels already in there. My tap water is too unstable for use in my grows.

At any rate, here are the formulae and concentrations currently in use, which over the course of about 9 months, have shown the best results. I use the same mix for both the aeroflo and the buckets, only the concentrations are different.

Nutrients are listed as ml/gal, except for Epsom Salt, which is in grams/gal. To calculate the amount needed for the grow system, I simply take the res capacity, multiply it by the dilution rate, and the spreadsheet shows me exactly what I need.

For example, the aeroflo is filled with 35 gallons. I want to use a 35% strength, so in the calculator where you plug in the res volume, I entered (35 X 0.35 =) 12.25 gals. This is the easiest way to change the strengh, by just changing the res volume.

LKB = Liquid Kool Bloom
ES = Epsom Salt
CMP = Cal Mag Plus

VEG

35% strength for aeroflo (TDS about 640)
30% strength for buckets (TDS about 460)

Micro - 12 ml/gal
HW Mic - 8 ml/gal
Gro - 2 ml/gal
LKB - 7 ml/gal
ES - 3 gms/gal

Per the nutrient calculator, this yields, at 100% strength, the following ppms:

N - 275
P - 83
K - 224

Ca - 180
Mg - 81
S - 103


BLOOM

As mentioned, out of the cloner, 2 weeks on veg, then switch to bloom for the last 7 weeks.

30% strength for aeroflo (TDS about 640)
25% strength for buckets (TDS about 460)

Micro - 10 ml/gal
Gro - 16 ml/gal
LKB - 6 ml/gal
CMP - 6 ml/gal
ES - 2 gms/gal

Per the nutrient calculator, this yields, at 100% strength, the following ppms:

N - 248
P - 88
K - 364

Ca - 183
Mg - 92
S - 69

I hope that explains where I'm at. Be happy to discuss further. As always, your mileage may vary.



I will post the rest of those guys "critical posts" later when I have some more time to dig... gotta go!
 
Capulator

Capulator

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What I realized last night is that in my mpb I am not having a ca deficiency. I am having a total nute toxicity. I shoudl have been running everything at around 50% (1.1 EC)

oops. theres always next time!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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What I realized last night is that in my mpb I am not having a ca deficiency. I am having a total nute toxicity. I shoudl have been running everything at around 50% (1.1 EC)

oops. theres always next time!

Would you say that I shouldn't be running much over EC 1.2 in RDWC as well? My girls are looking like they're not getting enough nutes, espcially nitrogen, but it may be too much rather than too little. Since I need to add some water now anyway, it's a perfect time to lower the EC.

UnderCurrent's 'general recommendations' suggest a peak EC of 2.0 at peak bloom. I was going to follow those recommendations until I started seeing some issues with my girls.
 
FLB

FLB

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What I realized last night is that in my mpb I am not having a ca deficiency. I am having a total nute toxicity. I shoudl have been running everything at around 50% (1.1 EC)

oops. theres always next time!



I have been guilty of this one too many times. From what I read it seems a lot of peeps who ran mpb's had root issues. My guess is running the rez too hot. Less is better with these type of systems. Where does one find info on your tea's cap?
 
organicness

organicness

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Ummm damn. Cap, you are THE MAN for pointing that out. That post you put up there is outstanding for me. I've been running consistently around 1.4-1.6 EC where it looks like I should be running more around .9 EC or even a little less. And, given that these weird deficiencies started when I had that mess up of a 2.4EC rez, I bet that's what caused it.

Phew! and ttystikk, I'm finding out now that too much of lots of things can lock out things like N and Mg, etc, and could be giving me my yellow leaves. Ah, this thread makes me happy. :)
 
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