Coco and soiless mixes less likely to have root aphids

[Resinable]

Great info, thanks chemchris for posting that.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Buddy, if your growing on that level, you need Met 52. Then you don't even need to worry about it. You in Denver?

I'll try it. I didn't read all 130 posts, but I read enough to try it. I'm sick of M75 as a perventative.....too much for prevention. Great for eradication....I hope to never go there again.

Thanks for the werd...

Where to buy?

Oh yeah....I'm in Norcal.

 

[Resinable]

Buddyhemphill: I ordered MET52 from Green Mountain Harvest in Colorado; you also might try Endless Green in Napa.

 

[Seamaiden]

How did I get root aphids in brand new bags of PERLITE? Who here is going to insist they came in the perlite, when I was using it outdoors and unable to maintain a sterile environment? Perlite isn't just mined and bagged, it's 'made' much like vermiculite via a heating process that only extremophiles will live through, I mean we're talking temps that are appropriate for firing ceramics here, and you're gonna have a long row to hoe to convince me that root aphids in any form will live through that.

The root aphids are 'out there' in the environment, they aren't growing in bags of coco or soil where they have nothing to feed on, let alone reproduce by. If you doubt this assertion, get some new product that has had nothing grown in it and put it under a microscope and show us the root aphids it harbors.

Do what altimood says and that ounce of prevention will truly be worth a pound of good-cured.

 

[Resinable]

Seamaiden: it is sometimes difficult to tell where the root aphids are coming from and I too used to discount the idea that they were likely to come in bags of soilless mixes. As Altimood pointed out, however, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that they could, sometimes, make their way into bags of soil.

Just in the last few days I had a tray of cuts, taken by me, rooting in roots organic coco under a humidity dome in a sealed and "clean" veg area. Low and behold they were teaming with fast moving little white bugs, probably springtails, and I found fungus gnat larvae in there too. That is partly why I started this thread. Also, yesterday I opened a new bag of Roots Organic soiless mix and inspected a few handfuls. I found springtails and also something that looked like the pictures bongerilla has on you tube of "micro" root aphids. I confess that I am new to posting on these forums (been lurking for years though Root Aphids drove me out of hiding) so I have not yet looked into posting pics or I would.

Anyway, as far as, how you got them outdoors in perlite, they probably were in the local environment or maybe they were on your initial cuttings. The point is there is more than one way Root Aphids can get into your garden, just because you picked them up from the immediate environment around you does not mean that is the way everyone else gets them every-time. Also 10 years ago they were extremely uncommon, 15 years ago almost no one ever had them. Now they are endemic. So if the environment outside your room is the source why were they unheard of in indoor growing 15 years ago?

I think the most likely source of contamination is cuttings being passed around (no more clone trading/buying for me). ( The rise of coco and coco mixes seems to have suspiciously coincided with the prevalence of these pests something to think about). Others potential sources of Root Aphids include potting media and the general environment.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Seamaiden: it is sometimes difficult to tell where the root aphids are coming from and I too used to discount the idea that they were likely to come in bags of soilless mixes. As Altimood pointed out, however, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that they could, sometimes, make their way into bags of soil.

Just in the last few days I had a tray of cuts, taken by me, rooting in roots organic coco under a humidity dome in a sealed and "clean" veg area. Low and behold they were teaming with fast moving little white bugs, probably springtails, and I found fungus gnat larvae in there too. That is partly why I started this thread. Also, yesterday I opened a new bag of Roots Organic soiless mix and inspected a few handfuls. I found springtails and also something that looked like the pictures bongerilla has on you tube of "micro" root aphids. I confess that I am new to posting on these forums (been lurking for years though Root Aphids drove me out of hiding) so I have not yet looked into posting pics or I would.

Anyway, as far as, how you got them outdoors in perlite, they probably were in the local environment or maybe they were on your initial cuttings. The point is there is more than one way Root Aphids can get into your garden, just because you picked them up from the immediate environment around you does not mean that is the way everyone else gets them every-time. Also 10 years ago they were extremely uncommon, 15 years ago almost no one ever had them. Now they are endemic. So if the environment outside your room is the source why were they unheard of in indoor growing 15 years ago?

I think the most likely source of contamination is cuttings being passed around (no more clone trading/buying for me). ( The rise of coco and coco mixes seems to have suspiciously coincided with the prevalence of these pests something to think about). Others potential sources of Root Aphids include potting media and the general environment.

Was the media being stored inside or outside at your retailer?

The way the retailer stores it may be partly to blame. I wont buy a pallet thats been hanging aroung outside. I wait for a new batch of dirt usually.

Sidenote: ProMix smells like bug spray. I use to think it wasn't so cool....now....ehhh. I have been considering ammending promix next run instead of using 707 for this very reason.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Buddyhemphill: I ordered MET52 from Green Mountain Harvest in Colorado; you also might try Endless Green in Napa.

word.

thankee.

 

[Dollar]

I`ve been growing for more than 20 years and have never seen a root aphid until the other day. I had read about em here and I thought I would never see one because I grow hydro. I grow in gettos brutes with no soil anywhere around and still they arrived. I haven`t brought shit into my garden in the last month meaning clones or equipment, nothing and they still made it in somehow. I have the advantage of being able to lift the net pot out and inspect the roots. I can tell you that the progression in just 2 days is amazing. I saw a few just a couple days ago and now theres thousands covering the rootball. and the flyers people here call em here, I just look at the top of the net pot and one launches every few seconds, these things multipy so fast, its unreal. I am battling em with everything I have learned about here but I am considering shutting down all together if I cannot get rid of em in a month. I was able to rid my garden of mites (and it was bad, webs evrerywhere) which I was told I could not do so I`m off to fight the war. If I find something thats effective I will post the details. Good luck to all of you!

 

[Resinable]

Dollar: just my two cents bro, if you want to save yourself a lot of time, money, and heartache you might be better off, if you definitely have root aphids, doing this: shut down, kill everything, thoroughly clean, and disinfect everything and start over from seed and using a sterilized medium that can support MET52. Heat treating the room might be better than using chemicals. Seems drastic, but if i'd done that from the minute I found those fuckers, I'd be way better off. Without question. Just my opinion tho.

 

[green punk]

Dollar
Kill everything. Get the strongest pyrethrium you can get spray everything ceiling on down. Let room sit fallow for atleast two weeks,10% bleach, repeat. Clean cuttings or fresh seed stock.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

allow me to ditto the above posts.

I held onto a run with RA's until harvest.

I got 2 iffy p's.... Out of 11 lights.....(throw up)

Lotsa hash though! Density is where they gitcha. My flowers LOOKED pretty. There was nothing but larf though.

 

[Seamaiden]

Seamaiden: it is sometimes difficult to tell where the root aphids are coming from and I too used to discount the idea that they were likely to come in bags of soilless mixes. As Altimood pointed out, however, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that they could, sometimes, make their way into bags of soil.

Just in the last few days I had a tray of cuts, taken by me, rooting in roots organic coco under a humidity dome in a sealed and "clean" veg area. Low and behold they were teaming with fast moving little white bugs, probably springtails, and I found fungus gnat larvae in there too. That is partly why I started this thread. Also, yesterday I opened a new bag of Roots Organic soiless mix and inspected a few handfuls. I found springtails and also something that looked like the pictures bongerilla has on you tube of "micro" root aphids. I confess that I am new to posting on these forums (been lurking for years though Root Aphids drove me out of hiding) so I have not yet looked into posting pics or I would.

I would suggest that the home-grower (home anything) has a next-to-impossible task if their goal is to make a room truly sealed and/or clean. The vast majority of people don't know how it's done and their P&P, assuming that have one, doesn't include clean room techniques, nor does it include quarantine, etc. My foundation comes from the aquatic ornamental and public aquarium world, where there are different levels of given techniques applied. What if you were able to put a sterilized batch of soil into this sealed room and left it? Do you think it would remain springtail-free? Do you ever get spiders? Springtails in and around the bags themselves makes sense, but root aphids doesn't.

I'm landing on the 'in the environment' or at least easily transmitted side right now. While I don't know how every soil/media is processed, in order to truly accurately assess whether or not pests are being essentially vectored by them, one would need to be able to achieve that truly sealed/clean environment. That would include no inoculation via clothing, for instance.

Springtails are a rather different creature than root aphids. Being primarily detrivores, wouldn't that mean by default they're going to be searching those moist places where they can access decomposing material? Root aphids need something rather different to feed on, so unless stuff like my bags of perlite (processed at around 1,400*F) and your Roots Organic have living root material for them to feed on, or are turning over product that's got infested root masses going into the product, it's not making sense to me that they'd be there and *not* already present in the general environment. I have not ever run across any paper that discusses an extended period of stasis for RAs at any stage in their life cycle, so if that's a possibility I haven't read it (yet). I am always looking for information, though, so if someone has that, I would very much like to read it.

And so, I believe mine were already present, as I'd lost a philodendron just months before to what I thought were fungus gnats, took a cutting and let it grow in water (til I forgot to add water and the cutting died). It was a plant I'd had for years, even moved from SoCal to NorCal with me, how is it explained if not that the flying root aphid mothers were up here? Also, if they're actually in the media, then why was I infected in my subsequent indoor coco grow, using Botanicare compressed bales, of cannabis only, but the other plants I grew inside for the next year weren't infected? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying I believe there are other vectors or means of introduction that seem much more viable to me. Sure, passed along like an STD is one way, but if you knew how I'd started that grow, the whole growing scenario, then you wouldn't say anything other than "they're in the environment."

Anyway, as far as, how you got them outdoors in perlite, they probably were in the local environment or maybe they were on your initial cuttings. The point is there is more than one way Root Aphids can get into your garden, just because you picked them up from the immediate environment around you does not mean that is the way everyone else gets them every-time. Also 10 years ago they were extremely uncommon, 15 years ago almost no one ever had them. Now they are endemic. So if the environment outside your room is the source why were they unheard of in indoor growing 15 years ago?

Let me suggest some agricultural reading for you. This is how I learned some of the methods for dealing with root aphids once I accepted that they were the problem I was experiencing. Much of the literature mentions burgeoning problems with these pests where few problems existed before. I'll have to search my bookmarks, I do have some papers I can share if you'd like, all are ag-specific, but I think much of the science and knowledge can be extrapolated to cannabis growing. So, uncommon for everyone is my take on it, not just cannabis growers. Just like weeds resistant to glyphosate were unheard of 10 years ago.

I think the most likely source of contamination is cuttings being passed around (no more clone trading/buying for me). ( The rise of coco and coco mixes seems to have suspiciously coincided with the prevalence of these pests something to think about). Others potential sources of Root Aphids include potting media and the general environment.

Sure, and I would accept that as a very viable vector for the prevalence and spreading like wildfire across geographically remote states. But there are other vectors as well, including air currents (look up furunculosis, it's an infection of fish of which mode of transmission is still unknown, we *think* it may sporulate and travel on the wind), clothing, etc. Also, if someone's near an agricultural region, that may increase chances of experiencing infection with these awful pests. Others as well.

My point is that when trying to figure out how to deal with this problem, there are many variables to consider, and I think people may be heading down the wrong path if their tendency is to look to a bagged media *first* instead of last. I've read it on board after board after board, people talking about the pests being introduced through a bag of this or that and when everything else is considered, it seems to me they've left out more possibilities than they've included. Make sense?

I mean, how many people sanitize their feet/shoes before entering a truly sealed environment? How many people have entryways that allow for sanitation or true sterilization? If you saw the lengths that places like the Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific go through to keep, say, their penguins in as safe and environment as possible, they would have a really good idea of what I'm talking about. Also, again from my past experience with RAs and the original idea behind the thread in terms of soilless versus--it was my organic soil-food-web ladies who grew beautifully for me, and if they had any root aphids in them I saw not one sign. Trippy, huh?

I'd like to share this paper on hot water dips of rooted (grape) cuttings to control RAs. The way we tend to grow cannabis it seems like it's a 'best method' kind of technique, doesn't require special clothing, permits, licenses, isn't systemic like the imid products, and who can't make hot water more cheaply than something like Met52?

 

[cemchris]

I can say also it has to do with once you have root aphids you equipment, a/c's, hoods, carbon filters, pots, dehums, and a bunch of other sources can harbor them. Most people forget about all of that stuff (a la PM) and reinfect themselves over and over making them harder to kill. I think that was my case and after a year and a half they took foot hold and weren't giving up. I can def see it coming from media. Have you seen where they process large bulk coco? It sits outside in huge piles, they throw it into a hopper with a front end loader and out comes your bricks. Package it and send it out to the 30 companies selling "different" coir. I always bought into canna because of the "quality" control associated with it (they steam it).

We are on the losing end of a battle. Indoors is so prevalent to these pests and there isn't a shortage or will there ever be. Im just glad Im running sealed rooms again. Once you get pests its a lot easier to control.

lol and BTW I change shoes and clothes and have a sticky mat in front of my door.

http://www.uline.com/BL_1762/Clean-Mat?pricode=wf579&gclid=CMa_gNT7na0CFW-HtgodBUoPIQ

 

[Resinable]

Interesting post Seamaiden, you make some good points. In particular I am intrigued by the hot water treatment idea, I had not heard of that before. I am always looking for effective non toxic remedies. I don't think there is much disagreement between us. I think we agree that:

1) RAs sometimes could come on cuttings.

2) RAs sometimes could come from the general environment in the vicinity of the grow room

Regarding RAs coming in growing media, as I said previously I used to discount the idea but I have since come to think it is a possible vector. First, I am not convinced that root aphids need to be in the presence of roots to survive for a period of time; I know the can feed on carbohydrates and they probably have some kind of dormant state. Furthermore, a number of experienced, intelligent growers have reported, for what ever reason, that they believed RAs were introduced to their gardens via bags of potting mixes. I personally have found fungus gnats and springtails in purchased bags, so for me it is not much of a leap that RAs could be in there too. The bags of growing media could be infected at the site where they are first mixed and bagged, at various points along the shipping route, or while being stored at the retail vendor's facility (inside or outside). I think you have to concede it is at least a possibility that sometimes RAs come in bags of growing media. For this reason I will be sterilizing all my growing media going forward.

As far as having a completely sterile "sealed" growing environment, I agree this is difficult if not impossible to achieve. But perfection can be the enemy of progress: just like with soil sterilization, the point is to limit the likelihood and incidence of infestation not necessarily eliminate any chance of it (although that would be nice). I believe, when it comes to RAs, a comprehensive multi-pronged approach utilizing numerous synergistic strategies and techniques is crucial. Again, although RAs do exist in the environment, if that is the primary vector for indoor growers then why where RAs unheard of until recently in this context?

 

[altimood]

The way we tend to grow cannabis it seems like it's a 'best method' kind of technique, doesn't require special clothing, permits, licenses, isn't systemic like the imid products, and who can't make hot water more cheaply than something like Met52?

Met 52 is super cheap. I bought a 22LB. for $500.00 that I'm still using from june 2011. It's cheaper than anything out there (except water). Works out to like 20 cents a gram so maybe 2 dollars per container. Its almost as cheap as water.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

whats the dispersal rate?

How much do I need per cu ft?

 

[Resinable]

Buddy:

Applications to Growing Media for Container Grown Crops:
Apply 500 g to 1.5 kg/m3 of moist soil medium, using the higher application rate when pest pressure is expected to be high. Uniformly incorporate the Met52 Granular Bioinsecticide throughout the growing medium.
Do not mix fungicides in growth medium containing Met52 Granular Bioinsecticide. Keep the plants above 16oC and maintain good drainage. Met52 Granular Bioinsecticide is grown on cereal grains that will decompose in the growing media. Pests likely to be attracted by grains, such as rodents, must be controlled prior to use of this product.

m3=35.3 cubic feet 1 cubic foot =7.5 gallons :hi:

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

I can say also it has to do with once you have root aphids you equipment, a/c's, hoods, carbon filters, pots, dehums, and a bunch of other sources can harbor them. Most people forget about all of that stuff (a la PM) and reinfect themselves over and over making them harder to kill. I think that was my case and after a year and a half they took foot hold and weren't giving up. I can def see it coming from media. Have you seen where they process large bulk coco? It sits outside in huge piles, they throw it into a hopper with a front end loader and out comes your bricks. Package it and send it out to the 30 companies selling "different" coir. I always bought into canna because of the "quality" control associated with it (they steam it).

We are on the losing end of a battle. Indoors is so prevalent to these pests and there isn't a shortage or will there ever be. Im just glad Im running sealed rooms again. Once you get pests its a lot easier to control.

lol and BTW I change shoes and clothes and have a sticky mat in front of my door.

http://www.uline.com/BL_1762/Clean-Mat?pricode=wf579&gclid=CMa_gNT7na0CFW-HtgodBUoPIQ

I totally agree....

I already posted this, but I thought I would bear repeating...

If you have equipment with filters that stay wet (swamp coolers) the FILTER is a prime time nesting ground.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be OCD when cleaning up after an RA attack. NOTHING is going overboard. Overkill does not exist. Do it all.

Buddy:

Applications to Growing Media for Container Grown Crops:
Apply 500 g to 1.5 kg/m3 of moist soil medium, using the higher application rate when pest pressure is expected to be high. Uniformly incorporate the Met52 Granular Bioinsecticide throughout the growing medium.
Do not mix fungicides in growth medium containing Met52 Granular Bioinsecticide. Keep the plants above 16oC and maintain good drainage. Met52 Granular Bioinsecticide is grown on cereal grains that will decompose in the growing media. Pests likely to be attracted by grains, such as rodents, must be controlled prior to use of this product.

m3=35.3 cubic feet 1 cubic foot =7.5 gallons :hi:

suh weet

thanks homie!

 

[max_well]

In between rounds / post-outbreak, heat things up!

 

[FireWithin]

Any1 out there have any further incite/links for diy soil cookers/steamers (besides kitchen oven)? After going over literally days of info on forums and google'd data about RA's it would be silly and reckless to ever assume that medium introductions ARE NOT where the majority of the these RA infestations are coming from, along with clone introductions harboring the pests.