Coco coir~ God mode ? HELP

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Kgunge

Kgunge

I had to switch away from Coco Coir because I was trying to run it like Soil. I was starting to get a handle on it and it was just easier to switch to hydro. Here are a couple of things I would suggest because it sounds like the boss is difficult. I would implement a feed water schedule. Secondly, I would go a flush with just PH water once a week, followed after the flush by a light feed. IMO the problem with COCO and running it like soil is that the salts build up and ultimately lower the yield of the grow. If you could do 2 flushed a week I believe it would further enhance your grow.
I had to switch away from Coco Coir because I was trying to run it like Soil. I was starting to get a handle on it and it was just easier to switch to hydro. Here are a couple of things I would suggest because it sounds like the boss is difficult. I would implement a feed water schedule. Secondly, I would go a flush with just PH water once a week, followed after the flush by a light feed. IMO the problem with COCO and running it like soil is that the salts build up and ultimately lower the yield of the grow. If you could do 2 flushed a week I believe it would further enhance your grow.
I would say then yes you would benefit from both runoff and lower ppm.

Is this room co2 supplemented? Because that can increase nutrient demands as it will slow transpiration rates.
We supplement with c02 yea. Different ppm per plant phase. Are you saying that with c02 there will be more frequent irrigation or stronger EC ?
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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We supplement with c02 yea. Different ppm per plant phase. Are you saying that with c02 there will be more frequent irrigation or stronger EC ?
Stronger EC... co2 reduces transpiration rates... so we usually reduce humidity, increase temperature and increase concentration of the feed.

Basically the plant becomes more efficient at photosynthesis and thus reduces tranpiration. Common thought is that with co2 they can tolerate higher temps and lower humidity when in fact they actually need it. This is where knowing the leaf temps can really help to push temps to the limit and help dial in optimal humidity

By reducing humidity and increasing temps it creates a higher vapor pressure deficit and that means more flow of water and nutrients through the plant that help make up for the transpiration loss due to the plant photosynthesizing more efficiently. Often we need to run higher ppm if we don't offset out temps and humidity enough. But even if we do usually we need higher ppm.

There is a happy medium to be reached because the VPD has a direct effect on the stomatal openings that exchange co2 and give off o2.

This explains why your ppm is high.

I would really need to see the plants to see what environmental changes may benefit you and get some results on the ppm test in the media.
 
Kgunge

Kgunge

Stronger EC... co2 reduces transpiration rates... so we usually reduce humidity, increase temperature and increase concentration of the feed.

Basically the plant becomes more efficient at photosynthesis and thus reduces tranpiration. Common thought is that with co2 they can tolerate higher temps and lower humidity when in fact they actually need it. This is where knowing the leaf temps can really help to push temps to the limit and help dial in optimal humidity

By reducing humidity and increasing temps it creates a higher vapor pressure deficit and that means more flow of water and nutrients through the plant that help make up for the transpiration loss due to the plant photosynthesizing more efficiently. Often we need to run higher ppm if we don't offset out temps and humidity enough. But even if we do usually we need higher ppm.

There is a happy medium to be reached because the VPD has a direct effect on the stomatal openings that exchange co2 and give off o2.

This explains why your ppm is high.

I would really need to see the plants to see what environmental changes may benefit you and get some results on the ppm test in the media.
Wow man I forgot to respond and now im back researching what you've taught me as I am blueprinting for the next run coming up soon.
Lets begin ! now Im more confident in your grow "jargon", I understand what you're saying now through the heavy research.

Under double ended HPS @1000w , plants in 20 gal containers and I've upped the feeding to 3 gal a day because even 8 hours later they're bone dry. Run is coming close to an end , Ive cut down 1 room so far , great weight, im not to happy with quality... After what I've learned now on coco coir as well as how the environment plus C02 enrichment helps... we have to do things differently.

I also have a 22 light Gavita 1730 LED room that we have plants there full life cycle , I prefer the LEDs but those were a learning curve like crazy.

My plan for the next run is to measure PPFD from the beginning instead of eyeing everything at every stage. To run up our natural gas C02 up to a max of 1500PPM , this im still reading on when the correct times to up the levels are. I will be putting a sauce run off collector because as of now we only have them sitting on risers because remember... strict old school "if it works, it works" senior bosses. So I convinced them to let me put the plants on risers AND saucers, giving me the ability to either feed more freq or until runoff to ensure saturation.
You stated with C02 enrichment you can really push your RPM, this is also something im learning about to maximize my grow. I can't seem to find tons of resources other than Dr.Bruce Bugbee and an article from Michigan University saying with 1500PPM of C02 you can push your temperatures up to 86F, with that being said im assuming they mean LEAF SURFACE temp and not ambient room temp... as under HPS you are emitting that infrared heat which will heat up the plants. I unfortunately cannot switch to smaller containers , but I was allowed to add (1) 10 gal container under the HPS as a RnD to show them what it can do compared to 20 gal. In our led room all the plants are in 10 gal containers. I had a rough time with these bc of the learning curve man, when I learned properly it was already mid flower :/

To summarize the questions
1) What is the optimal leaf surface temperature with C02 enrichment ? lets say ... 1500PPM
2) With C02 at those levels, how would that effect EC targets, feed frequency ?
3) Would you recommend any kind of amending to the coco to keep more moisture to stay on par with the once a day feeding im restricted to? That way I can make sure the coco isn't bone dry by the time I get to work, we all know that messes with the root zone EC and salt build up
4) on another thread you say you water till runoff even at seedling/early veg, this goes against most coco growers and even Dr.CoCo on cocoforcannabis. Can you explain why you do? I was under the impression you need to let the roots search for water as the medium is big but the roots are small, risking suffocating the roots

Thanks for all your work into the community, I stumbled across your posts / comments often. Here attached are also some photos you asked for
 
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Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
Wow man I forgot to respond and now im back researching what you've taught me as I am blueprinting for the next run coming up soon.
Lets begin ! now Im more confident in your grow "jargon", I understand what you're saying now through the heavy research.

Under double ended HPS @1000w , plants in 20 gal containers and I've upped the feeding to 3 gal a day because even 8 hours later they're bone dry. Run is coming close to an end , Ive cut down 1 room so far , great weight, im not to happy with quality... After what I've learned now on coco coir as well as how the environment plus C02 enrichment helps... we have to do things differently.

I also have a 22 light Gavita 1730 LED room that we have plants there full life cycle , I prefer the LEDs but those were a learning curve like crazy.

My plan for the next run is to measure PPFD from the beginning instead of eyeing everything at every stage. To run up our natural gas C02 up to a max of 1500PPM , this im still reading on when the correct times to up the levels are. I will be putting a sauce run off collector because as of now we only have them sitting on risers because remember... strict old school "if it works, it works" senior bosses. So I convinced them to let me put the plants on risers AND saucers, giving me the ability to either feed more freq or until runoff to ensure saturation.
You stated with C02 enrichment you can really push your RPM, this is also something im learning about to maximize my grow. I can't seem to find tons of resources other than Dr.Bruce Bugbee and an article from Michigan University saying with 1500PPM of C02 you can push your temperatures up to 86F, with that being said im assuming they mean LEAF SURFACE temp and not ambient room temp... as under HPS you are emitting that infrared heat which will heat up the plants. I unfortunately cannot switch to smaller containers , but I was allowed to add (1) 10 gal container under the HPS as a RnD to show them what it can do compared to 20 gal. In our led room all the plants are in 10 gal containers. I had a rough time with these bc of the learning curve man, when I learned properly it was already mid flower :/

To summarize the questions
1) What is the optimal leaf surface temperature with C02 enrichment ? lets say ... 1500PPM
2) With C02 at those levels, how would that effect EC targets, feed frequency ?
3) Would you recommend any kind of amending to the coco to keep more moisture to stay on par with the once a day feeding im restricted to? That way I can make sure the coco isn't bone dry by the time I get to work, we all know that messes with the root zone EC and salt build up
4) on another thread you say you water till runoff even at seedling/early veg, this goes against most coco growers and even Dr.CoCo on cocoforcannabis. Can you explain why you do? I was under the impression you need to let the roots search for water as the medium is big but the roots are small, risking suffocating the roots

Thanks for all your work into the community, I stumbled across your posts / comments often. Here attached are also some photos you asked for
Just watching the hockey game... I know dam Canadians and thier hockey... will grab this and explain to the best of my knowledge as soon as it over
 
Kgunge

Kgunge

Just watching the hockey game... I know dam Canadians and thier hockey... will grab this and explain to the best of my knowledge as soon as it over
Just watching the hockey game... I know dam Canadians and thier hockey... will grab this and explain to the best of my knowledge as soon as it over
Yeah eh I hear you on that , don’t forget the tims in the morning ;)
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
Wow man I forgot to respond and now im back researching what you've taught me as I am blueprinting for the next run coming up soon.
Lets begin ! now Im more confident in your grow "jargon", I understand what you're saying now through the heavy research.

Under double ended HPS @1000w , plants in 20 gal containers and I've upped the feeding to 3 gal a day because even 8 hours later they're bone dry. Run is coming close to an end , Ive cut down 1 room so far , great weight, im not to happy with quality... After what I've learned now on coco coir as well as how the environment plus C02 enrichment helps... we have to do things differently.

I also have a 22 light Gavita 1730 LED room that we have plants there full life cycle , I prefer the LEDs but those were a learning curve like crazy.

My plan for the next run is to measure PPFD from the beginning instead of eyeing everything at every stage. To run up our natural gas C02 up to a max of 1500PPM , this im still reading on when the correct times to up the levels are. I will be putting a sauce run off collector because as of now we only have them sitting on risers because remember... strict old school "if it works, it works" senior bosses. So I convinced them to let me put the plants on risers AND saucers, giving me the ability to either feed more freq or until runoff to ensure saturation.
You stated with C02 enrichment you can really push your RPM, this is also something im learning about to maximize my grow. I can't seem to find tons of resources other than Dr.Bruce Bugbee and an article from Michigan University saying with 1500PPM of C02 you can push your temperatures up to 86F, with that being said im assuming they mean LEAF SURFACE temp and not ambient room temp... as under HPS you are emitting that infrared heat which will heat up the plants. I unfortunately cannot switch to smaller containers , but I was allowed to add (1) 10 gal container under the HPS as a RnD to show them what it can do compared to 20 gal. In our led room all the plants are in 10 gal containers. I had a rough time with these bc of the learning curve man, when I learned properly it was already mid flower :/

To summarize the questions
1) What is the optimal leaf surface temperature with C02 enrichment ? lets say ... 1500PPM
2) With C02 at those levels, how would that effect EC targets, feed frequency ?
3) Would you recommend any kind of amending to the coco to keep more moisture to stay on par with the once a day feeding im restricted to? That way I can make sure the coco isn't bone dry by the time I get to work, we all know that messes with the root zone EC and salt build up
4) on another thread you say you water till runoff even at seedling/early veg, this goes against most coco growers and even Dr.CoCo on cocoforcannabis. Can you explain why you do? I was under the impression you need to let the roots search for water as the medium is big but the roots are small, risking suffocating the roots

Thanks for all your work into the community, I stumbled across your posts / comments often. Here attached are also some photos you asked for
1. Really depends on strain as the sativas will do better in higher heat.i fond personally leaf temps of around 80 to be ideal for the 1200ppm I run but I go much lower at the end of the grow to preserve terps. I also drop my co2 to 600 after swelling. The plant doesn't photosynthesize as much after that.

2. With mine and I'm in small pots feed many times a day. Last grow was 14x a day 250ml per event and I can't grow trees like you have there. Probably the most accurate is to read the root zone. You can use a syringe to pull water out if the saturation zone if your not doing a lot of runoff to test ppm and ph. I would say you gonna hit around 800-1000ppm and maybe more if they are sucking up the water and nutes. Normally I would say 800 but you are growing trees and can prob go higher than 1000ppm as long as they are eating it and not showing tox. Ideally around 120ppm of nitrogen should serve you well and much will depend in the temp and humidity. You can up the ppm if you up the humidity. But you will know for sure by the root zone sample. You want to take from the saturation zone.

3. Coco and vermiculite is a good mix I found. Small source of silica, provides good drainage so maintains and improves aeration but also holds moisture well.

4. See this thread. I'm not done with UT yet. But I will add that the period they are most susceptible to watering is from when the tap root hits the bottom until the roots start to grow above the water table. So imo up posting is a good idea but not a necessity using taller pots so the saturation zone isn't as big. Then when transplanting into the next size all of the roots are above the water table and the risk is much less. The more media also the higher the risk so I feel 1 transplant is important.

Not completed but this will help you understand some of what I said. You can also test the height of the perched water table before growing in it so you can see how much water it will hold and how high the water table is.

 
Kgunge

Kgunge

1. Really depends on strain as the sativas will do better in higher heat.i fond personally leaf temps of around 80 to be ideal for the 1200ppm I run but I go much lower at the end of the grow to preserve terps. I also drop my co2 to 600 after swelling. The plant doesn't photosynthesize as much after that.

2. With mine and I'm in small pots feed many times a day. Last grow was 14x a day 250ml per event and I can't grow trees like you have there. Probably the most accurate is to read the root zone. You can use a syringe to pull water out if the saturation zone if your not doing a lot of runoff to test ppm and ph. I would say you gonna hit around 800-1000ppm and maybe more if they are sucking up the water and nutes. Normally I would say 800 but you are growing trees and can prob go higher than 1000ppm as long as they are eating it and not showing tox. Ideally around 120ppm of nitrogen should serve you well and much will depend in the temp and humidity. You can up the ppm if you up the humidity. But you will know for sure by the root zone sample. You want to take from the saturation zone.

3. Coco and vermiculite is a good mix I found. Small source of silica, provides good drainage so maintains and improves aeration but also holds moisture well.

4. See this thread. I'm not done with UT yet. But I will add that the period they are most susceptible to watering is from when the tap root hits the bottom until the roots start to grow above the water table. So imo up posting is a good idea but not a necessity using taller pots so the saturation zone isn't as big. Then when transplanting into the next size all of the roots are above the water table and the risk is much less. The more media also the higher the risk so I feel 1 transplant is important.

Not completed but this will help you understand some of what I said. You can also test the height of the perched water table before growing in it so you can see how much water it will hold and how high the water table is.

You’re a G, thanks for that write up.
I did the same this time around lowering c02 and temps in the finals weeks of flower , will definitely be adding that to the standard of procedures from now on. Do you mess with light intensity towards the end of flower as well?
Also good suggestion on the syringe , even with run off I have a hard time collecting it because the plants get so big, man they like to grow em up to 13 ft tall 😳
I like how you brought up vermiculite because I was going to amend a few pots of coco with it this time around and see how it does. For right now our Recipe is 70/30 coco perlite then add in some worm castings which I’m not too sure about the castings being the best option for coco. With this kind of setup with the added c02, what are some normal range EC targets ? I gathered up a few resources on that but it seems to be so different for every environment and nutrient line. For example today going off mills feed chart I ran up a huge 2.9 EC , plants don’t seem to be affected that I can notice but just seems high to me
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
You’re a G, thanks for that write up.
I did the same this time around lowering c02 and temps in the finals weeks of flower , will definitely be adding that to the standard of procedures from now on. Do you mess with light intensity towards the end of flower as well?
Also good suggestion on the syringe , even with run off I have a hard time collecting it because the plants get so big, man they like to grow em up to 13 ft tall 😳
I like how you brought up vermiculite because I was going to amend a few pots of coco with it this time around and see how it does. For right now our Recipe is 70/30 coco perlite then add in some worm castings which I’m not too sure about the castings being the best option for coco. With this kind of setup with the added c02, what are some normal range EC targets ? I gathered up a few resources on that but it seems to be so different for every environment and nutrient line. For example today going off mills feed chart I ran up a huge 2.9 EC , plants don’t seem to be affected that I can notice but just seems high to me
Of its organic don't go by ppm.. to much other stuff that it counts as ppm but is not available to the plants. Even the casting will throw ya off so your EC will be much higher with organics 2k+ is never usually an issue but have ppl freaking out. Start half dose and work up if they get hungry.

I haven't mess with light intensity yet but I'm going to next grow try the last week dropong intensity and increase duration back to 18/6 but no way in hell can I recommend it at this point.
 
Kgunge

Kgunge

Of its organic don't go by ppm.. to much other stuff that it counts as ppm but is not available to the plants. Even the casting will throw ya off so your EC will be much higher with organics 2k+ is never usually an issue but have ppl freaking out. Start half dose and work up if they get hungry.

I haven't mess with light intensity yet but I'm going to next grow try the last week dropong intensity and increase duration back to 18/6 but no way in hell can I recommend it at this point.
I think I’ll just try vermiculite next time around instead of worm castings. I know Mr Canuck on YouTube uses Gaia 4•4•4 , but at that point I think it’s way too similar to soil and losing out the the hydro like benefits of coco. Well I guess the way we’re set up we’re losing the hydro benefits as well lol

I’ll be following your page man I’ll keep the threat updated as well. Clones will be coming off soon so the next run is almost here for me. And good luck on the experiment reverting back to 18/6 that sounds hella scary
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
I think I’ll just try vermiculite next time around instead of worm castings. I know Mr Canuck on YouTube uses Gaia 4•4•4 , but at that point I think it’s way too similar to soil and losing out the the hydro like benefits of coco. Well I guess the way we’re set up we’re losing the hydro benefits as well lol

I’ll be following your page man I’ll keep the threat updated as well. Clones will be coming off soon so the next run is almost here for me. And good luck on the experiment reverting back to 18/6 that sounds hella scary
Definitely keep it updated... I won't be growing for a few months yet... lots on my plate right now.
 
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