Converting to grow trees, need tips

ttystikk · Mar 10, 2013

I'm thinking of switching my RDWC setup from a dozen 5 gallon buckets to six 27 gallon tuffboxes, still in the same 8x8 space under 4kW of hps in Magnum ochos. Should I consider other changes if I want to do six small trees in this space? What might those changes be?

Capulator · Mar 10, 2013

8x 8 = 4 trees @ 48" OC... thats the minimum you want. Then drop 5 1k bare verts around them so each one is getting hit on 3 sides. You can hit 2+ per plant with the right strain.

ttystikk · Mar 10, 2013

Capulator said:
8x 8 = 4 trees @ 48" OC... thats the minimum you want. Then drop 5 1k bare verts around them so each one is getting hit on 3 sides. You can hit 2+ per plant with the right strain.

Those five verts are instead of or in addition to the four above in hoods? How big do they need to be before the flip?

fishwhistle · Mar 10, 2013

I think instead of tty,usually drop in verts for trees.

Capulator · Mar 10, 2013

ttystikk said:
Those five verts are instead of or in addition to the four above in hoods? How big do they need to be before the flip?

Instead of, and flip depends on strain. Do you have a separate veg room?

ttystikk · Mar 10, 2013

Capulator said:
Instead of, and flip depends on strain. Do you have a separate veg room?

Yes, I do, and my whole setup is designed around the ability to move plans with a minimum of fuss.

Capulator · Mar 10, 2013

You can get 5 harvies a year if you are good with timing. I usually take my cuts halfway in to the flowering cycle, and then veg 2 weeks or so in the big room after transfer (really depends on strain... how fast the cuts root, how fast they grow etc). I flip anywhere from 16" (tangerine dream) to 36" (Super Lemon Haze). The tangerine will go to 6' tall from 16", and the lemon will only go to 4' from 36"... So yeah thats an example of how strain dependent flip size is. The best strains are the ones that you understand.

ttystikk · Mar 11, 2013

I am really beginning to like this idea, a lot. I have plenty of veg. space to grow the ladies right to the moment of flip.

Another reason is plant counts. No matter the size, fewer is better in the current regulatory environment.

Going vertical means a different approach to trellising, too. Does throwing a net over the whole tree really work out?

kushtrees · Mar 11, 2013

I would do more than just throw a net over the plant. cages are vital if you don't want your branches falling over or breaking

Training a tree is different for each strain. I usually end up with 100s of yoyos and lots of tying to the cages. Best advice I can give is make sure you lolipop the middle and cut off those giant fan leaves blocking colas. This time all the plants are going to be on swivel wheels so I can turn them to easily cut out the middle, trying to save my knees

How big to flip and how to train is very strain dependent. It's always a learning experience when I take on a new strain.

ttystikk · Mar 11, 2013

This is all excellent advice, thank you all. I just finished a run I thought would knock it out of the park... But the final numbers said otherwise. Bottom line, I think, is that a flat surface trellis just has less surface area than a group of trees where the light comes from the sides.

Capulator · Mar 11, 2013

ttystikk said:
This is all excellent advice, thank you all. I just finished a run I thought would knock it out of the park... But the final numbers said otherwise. Bottom line, I think, is that a flat surface trellis just has less surface area than a group of trees where the light comes from the sides.

Mathematically speaking this is correct. A sphere on a plane has a greater area than the plane itself. You want equidistant spacing where the plant can fill in almost completely on 4 sides. Why almost? You also want a space in between for airflow and light penetration. So you go by center to center. I run 48 now and want to upgrade to 60 or 72, and double stack the bulbs.

Here is a quick drawing to help people easily visualize (I'm a visual guy). The square has an area of 16 sq ft. The dome with a 2' radius has almost 25 sq. ft. The cone that is 3' tall has an area of 22 sq. ft. An ovoid shape with stacked bulbs would be the next level. Double stacked one 1k over a 600.

ttystikk · Mar 11, 2013

Another illustration would help me better visualize where to place the five bulbs. One in the middle is obvious, but do the other four go in the corners? How high is best?

I really appreciated the math oriented discussion above, as I tend to think theoretically.

Once, I shied away from hydroponics. Now I design my own systems for paying clients. Once, I ran an open room- now I'm running a water chilled, controlled environment- and again, design them for others. Once, I thought that a level trellis under overhead lighting was the preferred approach. Just one more aspect to re-think.

I've learned so much doing this I honestly feel that by comparison, getting my college degree was a waste of time and money.

kushtrees · Mar 11, 2013

I run this...

O = plant, X = light

XOX
OXO
XOX

If you want more plants less light u can do this...

OXO
XOX
OXO

One giant plant in the middle this way

kushtrees · Mar 11, 2013

It's always nice to be able to move the trees also. That way you can start at what ver centers you need and end at different ones. I start at 48" and end over 60" usually

ttystikk · Mar 11, 2013

kushtrees said:
It's always nice to be able to move the trees also. That way you can start at what ver centers you need and end at different ones. I start at 48" and end over 60" usually

I can move my trees from site to site very easily, but moving the sites themselves is best done between runs.

shawnskush · Mar 11, 2013

so whats the verdict on cooltubes and vert growing?

kushtrees · Mar 11, 2013

ttystikk said:
I can move my trees from site to site very easily, but moving the sites themselves is best done between runs.

I meant the sites. With RDWC it's a lot harder, but chow mix in smart pots on rolling stands = easy

Only reason I recommend this is if your doing a new strain it's hard to predict needed centers, I prefer the control

GR33NL3AF · Mar 11, 2013

kushtrees said:
I run this...

O = plant, X = light

XOX
OXO
XOX

If you want more plants less light u can do this...

OXO
XOX
OXO

One giant plant in the middle this way

Kush, how long would someone need to veg, on average, before flowering only 4-5 girls like that?

kushtrees · Mar 11, 2013

Depends on your medium. In chow I do 4 weeks under t5s (includes the week or 2 for clones to root) and then 4 weeks in the flower room, usually with 3 of the 5 lights on. I run 2 rooms on a flip and 6 lights is the most I can have on at one time.

You can speed this up with some DWC but I like the easy of chow mix, less to worry about. Again though veg time is strain dependent. That veg is for a girl who I flower at 36-40 inches and ends 5 ft max. I had a wifi that I only had to veg 2 feet and it would be over 5 ft if I wasn't careful, first time I ran it it was in the ceiling cuz I vegged too long

GR33NL3AF · Mar 11, 2013

kushtrees said:
Depends on your medium. In chow I do 4 weeks under t5s (includes the week or 2 for clones to root) and then 4 weeks in the flower room, usually with 3 of the 5 lights on. I run 2 rooms on a flip and 6 lights is the most I can have on at one time.

You can speed this up with some DWC but I like the easy of chow mix, less to worry about. Again though veg time is strain dependent. That veg is for a girl who I flower at 36-40 inches and ends 5 ft max. I had a wifi that I only had to veg 2 feet and it would be over 5 ft if I wasn't careful, first time I ran it it was in the ceiling cuz I vegged too long

So you don't have a separate veg space, you veg in your flower room?
That would be too much down time for me... The most I will veg for in my flower rooms is a week. Because of this I usually find myself running WAY more plants that I am comfortable with in order to fill my canopy.

Do you think a plant, like you mentioned (touching the ceiling), would benefit from double stacked vertical bulbs? All depends on heat huh?

What's the closest you've allowed your plants to get to bare bulbs?

Converting to grow trees, need tips

Converting to grow trees, need tips

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

fishwhistle

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

kushtrees

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

kushtrees

kushtrees

ttystikk

shawnskush

kushtrees

GR33NL3AF

kushtrees

GR33NL3AF

Converting to grow trees, need tips

Converting to grow trees, need tips

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

fishwhistle

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

kushtrees

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

ttystikk

kushtrees

kushtrees

ttystikk

shawnskush

kushtrees

GR33NL3AF

kushtrees

GR33NL3AF

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