Converting to grow trees, need tips

ttystikk · Mar 12, 2013

Cap, you and Kushtrees have effectively laid out the merits of the 5 vertical bulb around four plants approach. I'm going to keep my first run on this configuration relatively simple.

Agreed about needing to know one's strains well to effectively manage stretch. I have some that hardly stretch at all, and others that go batshit! I plan to run the stretchy pheno and flip them small so they don't overgrow- if I err, it will be to the early side. I remember Desert Squirrel's pics of some of his RDWC runs in shipping containers- the growth was incredible!

Down the road, I want to experiment with a light rotator, using it to orbit a nominally overhead fixture around and very close to an individual tree. That's going to be awhile, I want to get the basics down first.

As far as the finickyness factor of RDWC, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on it. With chowmix in netpots over the water, running top drop irrigation to drain back into the RDWC thus flushing Cap's bennies (shameless plug!) through the whole system, I've all but forgotten what pythium problems look like- even at 68 degrees.

LexLuthor · Mar 12, 2013

Hey ttystikk, you have the experience in RDWC, I don't think you will have any major issues with running trees. Do you plan on starting a thread?? If you have time of course, but that would be cool if you did.

ttystikk · Mar 13, 2013

lex0415 said:
Hey ttystikk, you have the experience in RDWC, I don't think you will have any major issues with running trees. Do you plan on starting a thread?? If you have time of course, but that would be cool if you did.

My issue with writing a thread is that I'm more into the engineering end of things than the strains, and I get the feeling that would be of limited interest here. Also, the stuff I'm trying often attracts the ignorant who seem to delight in telling me I don't know anything- and then flaming rather than discussing things like adults. This thread is valuable to me, and I hope to others as well, but I have no time for arguing with those who are terrified of the unknown.

Amber · Mar 13, 2013

Capulator said:
Mathematically speaking this is correct. A sphere on a plane has a greater area than the plane itself. You want equidistant spacing where the plant can fill in almost completely on 4 sides. Why almost? You also want a space in between for airflow and light penetration. So you go by center to center. I run 48 now and want to upgrade to 60 or 72, and double stack the bulbs.

View attachment 296777

Here is a quick drawing to help people easily visualize (I'm a visual guy). The square has an area of 16 sq ft. The dome with a 2' radius has almost 25 sq. ft. The cone that is 3' tall has an area of 22 sq. ft. An ovoid shape with stacked bulbs would be the next level. Double stacked one 1k over a 600.

I love visual stimulation

AlterNation · Mar 13, 2013

This is getting slightly off topic, but I've been thinking about Cap's walls and have been wondering about the following layout, with one or multiple walls on rolling trellises. I'm imagining using the corner of a large room, warehouse, garage, whatever...with two fixed walls and two movable walls, with 4K vertical bare bulbs hanging in the center. What do you think? It seems like a good way to limit plant #'s, especially since the legal limit is 6 plants per card, here. Can pull one wall out to get in, or if there was enough space to build 4 walls, maintenance could all be done from behind.

What do you think?

O O

O XX O

O O

ttystikk · Mar 13, 2013

Amber said:
I love visual stimulation

Boing!

ttystikk · Mar 13, 2013

AlterNation said:
This is getting slightly off topic, but I've been thinking about Cap's walls and have been wondering about the following layout, with one or multiple walls on rolling trellises. I'm imagining using the corner of a large room, warehouse, garage, whatever...with two fixed walls and two movable walls, with 4K vertical bare bulbs hanging in the center. What do you think? The second one in particular seems like a good way to limit plant #'s, especially since the legal limit is 6 plants per card, here. Can pull one wall out to get in, or if there was enough space to build 4 walls, maintenance could all be done from behind.

What do you think?

| |_O_O_O_| |
|O| |O|
| | X X | |
|O| |O|
| | X X | |
|O| |O|
| |_O_O_O_| |

| |__O___O__| |
| | | |
|O| X X |O|
| | | |
|O| X X |O|
| | | |
| |__O___O__| |

I was unable to make heads or talks of your illustration, but in theory a corner would work well. Start with one thouie and add as you get a better handle on how to cool it.

AlterNation · Mar 13, 2013

Yeah, I formatted it in notepad, but it didn't copy well. Should look like this:

O O

O XX O

O O

Would 1K be enough to max out 4 walls?

ttystikk · Mar 13, 2013

AlterNation said:
Yeah, I formatted it in notepad, but it didn't copy well. Should look like this:

O O
O XX O
O XX O
O O
Would 1K be enough to max out 4 walls?

Absolutely. Just place all the walls at a 20-30" radius from the 1kW bare bulb in the center. Stack two, and the box should get 6" larger in radius (not overall diameter). A smaller bulb gets a smaller box; 600w might be best with 16-18" radius.

To take this idea to its logical conclusion, consider six or even eight sides, so every square inch of vertical surface area is in the optimum lighting zone. I remember a guy's thread here on the farm from years ago- he built his out of bookshelves. I never saw any pics of him running it, but I do remember that he said to use two 1000w bulbs if it is to be 6' tall, and three for 8'.

Capulator · Mar 13, 2013

ttystikk said:
Cap, you and Kushtrees have effectively laid out the merits of the 5 vertical bulb around four plants approach. I'm going to keep my first run on this configuration relatively simple.

Agreed about needing to know one's strains well to effectively manage stretch. I have some that hardly stretch at all, and others that go batshit! I plan to run the stretchy pheno and flip them small so they don't overgrow- if I err, it will be to the early side. I remember Desert Squirrel's pics of some of his RDWC runs in shipping containers- the growth was incredible!

Down the road, I want to experiment with a light rotator, using it to orbit a nominally overhead fixture around and very close to an individual tree. That's going to be awhile, I want to get the basics down first.

As far as the finickyness factor of RDWC, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on it. With chowmix in netpots over the water, running top drop irrigation to drain back into the RDWC thus flushing Cap's bennies (shameless plug!) through the whole system, I've all but forgotten what pythium problems look like- even at 68 degrees.

Totally best to flip small. Thats what I did with the lemon. It took me 3 runs to find the perfect flip height and really get to know the plant and how big to get her before flip. I say flip your first plants at 18" if you are doing RDWC. Put them in there at 12" and let them bush out til 18". Under verts they get a lot more bushy since they are no longer stretching up to the light above. Remember to keep RH up until the plants are big enough to minimize transfer shock.

Capulator · Mar 13, 2013

AlterNation said:
Yeah, I formatted it in notepad, but it didn't copy well. Should look like this:

O O
O XX O
O XX O
O O
Would 1K be enough to max out 4 walls?

this does not look efficient to me but maybe I am missing something? Is that 4 bulbs huddled together in the center? If yes you could eliminate 2 of those bulbs on the right or left.

If your trellis is attached to the containers and you aren't supporting flowers from the ceiling, you can do this on wheels. I usually end up supporting flowers from the ceiling via yo yo, but you can support from the trellis if you make it high enough.

GR33NL3AF · Mar 13, 2013

ttystikk said:
Cap, you and Kushtrees have effectively laid out the merits of the 5 vertical bulb around four plants approach. I'm going to keep my first run on this configuration relatively simple.

Agreed about needing to know one's strains well to effectively manage stretch. I have some that hardly stretch at all, and others that go batshit! I plan to run the stretchy pheno and flip them small so they don't overgrow- if I err, it will be to the early side. I remember Desert Squirrel's pics of some of his RDWC runs in shipping containers- the growth was incredible!

Down the road, I want to experiment with a light rotator, using it to orbit a nominally overhead fixture around and very close to an individual tree. That's going to be awhile, I want to get the basics down first.

As far as the finickyness factor of RDWC, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on it. With chowmix in netpots over the water, running top drop irrigation to drain back into the RDWC thus flushing Cap's bennies (shameless plug!) through the whole system, I've all but forgotten what pythium problems look like- even at 68 degrees.

Excited to see your results!

Haven't altered my rooms in months, haha, time to complicate things again...

AlterNation · Mar 13, 2013

this does not look efficient to me but maybe I am missing something? Is that 4 bulbs huddled together in the center?

It's just my diagram that sucks. The original one was better, but the site re-formatted the text for me and did not represent the vision very well. I was thinking of 4 bulbs in the center, but not huddled together. In my mind, the room is large enough and there's plenty of area to space the bulbs out.

The idea I have is to use trellises that are on wheels, about the size of one of those movable chalkboards, with 27 gallon containers sitting on an attached shelf. (one per wall, two plants per container.) I hadn't considered fastening the trellis to the ceiling or supporting from above. I imagined that the trellis would be tall enough to support everything.

I'm just thinking of walls vs. trees. It may not be feasible, or, as someone else mentioned, perhaps 4 or 5 trees would end up providing more surface area for canopy than 4 flat walls would. It just seems so efficient and easy to manage. But then, I'm often more of an idealist than a realist. Thanks for the replies, and sorry to get off topic!

ttystikk · Mar 13, 2013

It's not off topic if we're discussing trees, brother! I would suggest you think about the vertical idea around just one or two bulbs stacked, instead of running four bulbs side by side.

LexLuthor · Mar 13, 2013

I think something like this would work for growing trees on a wall

0=plant, X=double stacked 1k's

--0
0 X 0
--0

Basically have 4 27 gallon totes with 1 plant per tote in a square configuration and grow them up the trellis-wall with 2 1k's double stacked in the middle. Thats with coco/chow, but if it was RDWC the buckets probably would not have to be nearly as big, I think 13 or 18 gallon totes would suffice. Not nearly as much light as the 4 plant, 5 bulb setup, but for wall growing it might work well.

kushtrees · Mar 13, 2013

Lex is spot on, unless you are going to have a plant in the middle of those 4 lights, it's better to have 1 light in the middle instead of 4. You will be wasting a lot of light if you have 4 lights in the middle with no reflection or plants.

AlterNation · Mar 13, 2013

That makes sense. The thought did cross my mind to fill the middle swith something, to max out the space, but I like the idea of doing it with just 1 or 2k.

How do you think the yield would compare, doing 4 walls with 1 or 2k, as compared to the previously described 4 or 5 trees under 4 or 5k?

LexLuthor · Mar 13, 2013

AlterNation said:
That makes sense. The thought did cross my mind to fill the middle swith something, to max out the space, but I like the idea of doing it with just 1 or 2k.

How do you think the yield would compare, doing 4 walls with 1 or 2k, as compared to the previously described 4 or 5 trees under 4 or 5k?

More lights, more yield, but it depends on your limits. If you have the space and capability to run 4 plants w/ 5 lights, I would definitely do that over 4 plants w/ 1 or 2 lights. I think the yield would be significantly lower with 2k as opposed to 5k, but like I said, it depends on your limits.

If you are able to go with 4 lights, but you wanna stay with walls, then you could do it like this

0=plant, X=double stacked 1k's

----0 --0
--0 X 0 X 0
----0 --0

The plant in the middle would have a wall/trellis on both the left and right sides. I think this would yield similar to the 4 plant, 5 light tree setup, but maybe not as much because of the extra 1k on the other setup. This might be more efficient in 'GPW' then running the trees, but I honestly don't know because I never did a vert grow before.

Capulator · Mar 13, 2013

AlterNation said:
That makes sense. The thought did cross my mind to fill the middle swith something, to max out the space, but I like the idea of doing it with just 1 or 2k.

How do you think the yield would compare, doing 4 walls with 1 or 2k, as compared to the previously described 4 or 5 trees under 4 or 5k?

If you have a high ceiling you can fill the middle with plants, and grow plants on the wall. Your idea for a moving wall will work fine, and will help you clean the backs of the plants of the larf.

GR33NL3AF · Mar 14, 2013

I will have an open room in 4-5 weeks, I'm doing 10-20 trees similar to this
O x O
O O
O x O
O O
O x O
O O O
I want to stack bulbs, 6Kw total. What kind of space should I have between stacked bulbs? Side by side bulbs?

Edit: the diagram is all fucked up, basically 2 columns with 6 bulbs in the middle...

Converting to grow trees, need tips

Converting to grow trees, need tips

ttystikk

LexLuthor

ttystikk

Amber

AlterNation

ttystikk

ttystikk

AlterNation

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

GR33NL3AF

AlterNation

ttystikk

LexLuthor

kushtrees

AlterNation

LexLuthor

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

GR33NL3AF

Converting to grow trees, need tips

Converting to grow trees, need tips

ttystikk

LexLuthor

ttystikk

Amber

AlterNation

ttystikk

ttystikk

AlterNation

ttystikk

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

GR33NL3AF

AlterNation

ttystikk

LexLuthor

kushtrees

AlterNation

LexLuthor

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

GR33NL3AF

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