Could Air Stones Be Doing More Harm Than Good?

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Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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When using the O2G, the amount of H escaping during the electrolysis stage is quite low. Emitters are on only 30 minutes every 4 hours

Still water in the wild won't have sufficient DO in it to grow plants

My next grow will test some of the information stated above as my plan is to use only the emitters, no recirculation or agitation of the nutrients, though I think it would be a good idea to agitate the roots a bit. So, I have a small lpp to add if needed

FYI Im not planning on starting the O2G only grow here, but could change my mind is enough people let me know they are interestd
Just FYI these emitters break down in especially in higher salinity solutions and leech metals into the water. They also do not really super saturate the water with do like they claim. They do however increase the dwell time of bubbles so much so that a DO meter will pick them up as DO.
 
T

the.shire

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FYI Im not planning on starting the O2G only grow here, but could change my mind is enough people let me know they are interestd

I'd be interested to see how it goes if you send me a message. I think you'll definitely want some kind of agitation in the water around the roots.

Just FYI these emitters break down in especially in higher salinity solutions and leech metals into the water. They also do not really super saturate the water with do like they claim. They do however increase the dwell time of bubbles so much so that a DO meter will pick them up as DO.

I would imagine they're probably stainless steel and so, as you mention, will gradually pickle. This also happens with platinum (if you put platinum in saline at a pH of about 1 and add an oxidisers, such as persulphate or peroxide, it'll start dissolving into solution - they use that trick to recycle catalytic converters without autoclaves or aqua regia). Whether or not it's a problem is another thing I guess. I suspect you may be able to saturate the water with oxygen using relatively short bursts. Could always use magnesium for the electodes 😜

I've tried growing, temporarily, using H2O2 in solution, solely (no air pump). Peroxide has a relatively long persistence in water apparently, even at low concentrations; check this >link< where they measure the degradation. My hope was it'd help kill off any germs and also provide oxygen to the roots; it definitely does break down into free O2 when it contacts the roots as you can actually see it fizzing if you use higher concentrations. I didn't run this for long enough to know whether or not it'd work over a full grow. It did seem to keep the nutrient reasonably clean; I was running it in a clear container (exposed to light) but didn't have any algae growth in it initially.

Something I did notice, using Advanced Nutrients hard water veg, was that after adding just a few mL of peroxide every few days to 4-8L of water at ~1000ppm nutrient, I could see what appeared to be something flocking out of solution (opaque white fluff). At first I wondered if that might be the hard water additive chelating (ligand binding) minerals out of the water. But I already had some mixed up that had been sat in a bottle for weeks / months that was still perfectly transparent.

I strongly suspect what was happening was that the peroxide was actually oxidising something within the nutrient itself. Peroxide is a none specific oxidiser, so it'll oxidise anything around that can be oxidised; including organic material in the nutrient. The nutrient solution itself didn't appear to change at all in terms of ppm reading, but that could easily be because the things it's oxidising in solution aren't conductive to begin with (the ppm reading is essentially a conductivity reading right). The peroxide oxidises whatever it encounters first that it can most readily react with. One solution to that may be to add something to the tank to preferentially cause it's decomposition.

I've read many blog posts (re-posts of re-posts?) claiming H2O2 is really simple to use but I suspect I've observed something others haven't due to it being used in a transparent container to begin with (so I could actually see what was happening in the nutrient tank - the flock forming). I would be curious to know if something similar happens using the electrolysis idea, as oxygen radicals will temporarily form near the electrodes, which may then also react with the nutrient itself.
 
PhatNuggz

PhatNuggz

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Sorry, I haven't checked in THC lately

The Shire, thanks for all your input

In my minds eye, If one is using DWC, I do believe the roots do need to be tickled somewhat, especially once they get bigger. I start in a DIY bubbler now converted to O2G, once the root balls are big enough I transfer to F & D. So, I have been thinking to add the air stones in this next grow but put the pump on a separate deep cycle timer, unless I can get away with using the same timer as for the O2G. My concern being would I be dissipating the DO?

I use the drainback tube as the feed tube, but the last couple grows I was filling too high (combined with feeding too often) thereby soaking the starter cubes, which never dried out= root rot= shitty harvests. Since I have had excellent results with this setup in the past, I think I just need to adjust the volume of each flood

6 seeds cracked will be placed in rapid rooters this morning
 
Keesje

Keesje

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Too bad FooDoo is not around anymore (does anyone know where he went?)

I would like to ask him how he starts with clones in his sytem.
I totally agree with all his principals.

The only thing I am not sure about, is would the system of just using circulating water work on freshly cut clones?
Would the stems not become mushy for example?
 
PhatNuggz

PhatNuggz

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Too bad FooDoo is not around anymore (does anyone know where he went?)

I would like to ask him how he starts with clones in his sytem.
I totally agree with all his principals.

The only thing I am not sure about, is would the system of just using circulating water work on freshly cut clones?
Would the stems not become mushy for example?

I have excellent success cloning in a simple DIY bubbler (just looked to post a pic but I must have deleted it). , it's getting past the seed stage that is frustrating for me, but I THINK I finally solved all my issues. Look up HydroRed threads

.
 
PhatNuggz

PhatNuggz

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I finally got around to adding a separate timer just for my air pump. Currently running 30 minutes on/2 hours off in between O2G cycles which are 30minutes/3hours
 
Keesje

Keesje

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Using a bubble cloner works.
I have seen that.
But the question is: Does it also work in a system with just flooming or a waterfall?
There seems not to be that many differences at first sight.
But with a bubbler you see more tiny drops of water and a kind of mist when the bubbles 'explode' on the surface.
Perhaps that is a reason it works well with bubblers.
So curious if someone used flooming or waterfalls in a cloner.
 
Keesje

Keesje

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So curious if someone used flooming or waterfalls in a cloner.

I am still curious.
Did anyone use a cloner with just a waterfall or another form of flooming?

I know bubbles work, sprayers work, misters work. All tried that succesfully.
 
B

Burned Haze

Guest
Just use a snake tea bubbler , fuck spending the time cleaning or rebuying air stones. I know I was . Now these bubblers kicks it’s ass in air power and way more Effiecent . No reason for air stones for a 1 Rez guy, shoot I bought 3 of of em lol

 
Keesje

Keesje

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Just use a snake tea bubbler , fuck spending the time cleaning or rebuying air stones. I know I was . Now these bubblers kicks it’s ass in air power and way more Effiecent . No reason for air stones for a 1 Rez guy, shoot I bought 3 of of em lol


This is still a bubbler. Airstones, tubes with holes, whatever. All bubblers.

I am looking for people who use some kind of flooming or a waterfall for cloning.
Want to know how they use it, and how they builded it.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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638
This is still a bubbler. Airstones, tubes with holes, whatever. All bubblers.

I am looking for people who use some kind of flooming or a waterfall for cloning.
Want to know how they use it, and how they builded it.
Never done it but I can tell you from a point of understanding gas exchange that both will work. It's not the bubbles from the airstone that replenishs o2 levels... Its the surface agitation. So if you have a pump in the bottom pointed straight up causing the surface to roll in a sense it will be just as efffect as and airstone providing they are equal in surface agitation. Now if you want to go further the larger the surface area the better the gas exchange. So a shorter wider container will provide better gas exchange with the same amount of surface agitation. Also at a certain point more agitation will not put more DO into the water it only allows the gas exchange to keep DO at or close to equalibrium so more agitation doesn't necessarily mean more DO.

Hope that helps.
 
Keesje

Keesje

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I am testing several situations with cloning. Done already a few.
Bubbling, sprayers, eb & flow, misters.
Also with different treatments. Just in water, spraying with silica, such things.
Fun to do!

Flooming and waterfalls I did not try out yet.
So looking for experiences.

But I was thinking to do a Kratky set up as well.
Reason for this is, that when clones have no roots yet, they also can't absorb oxygen anyway.
And once they do have roots, they will continue to do well (as many Kratky videos on YouTube prove)
Question is if it works as well with cannabis as it does with tomatoes and basil. :)
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

26,480
638
I am testing several situations with cloning. Done already a few.
Bubbling, sprayers, eb & flow, misters.
Also with different treatments. Just in water, spraying with silica, such things.
Fun to do!

Flooming and waterfalls I did not try out yet.
So looking for experiences.

But I was thinking to do a Kratky set up as well.
Reason for this is, that when clones have no roots yet, they also can't absorb oxygen anyway.
And once they do have roots, they will continue to do well (as many Kratky videos on YouTube prove)
Question is if it works as well with cannabis as it does with tomatoes and basil. :)
In a situation like that colder water will be of better benefit as it has a higher DO content. Without aeration this will be beneficial as the further the o2 levels drift from equalibrium the more it fights to get back... Think of it like a rubber band in a way. That and cooler temps slow growth a bit so the plant demands on oxygen are lower.

I run res temps of 70-74 but I also make sure I have more than adequate aeration. The warmer temps actually speed growth a fair bit over the usual 65-68f Lotsa what I call misinformation out there on this. The warmer temps also increase the plants demand for o2 because of the increased growth rate.

Size of plant and res will be important also


Ok I'm just rambling now
 
Keesje

Keesje

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Hahaha,
What I already found out (and it is also the knowledge one will find when reading papers from agricultural universities and such) that higher temps for clones, make roots show earlier. The earlier the roots are there, the less chance for stem rot.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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638
Hahaha,
What I already found out (and it is also the knowledge one will find when reading papers from agricultural universities and such) that higher temps for clones, make roots show earlier. The earlier the roots are there, the less chance for stem rot.
Yes warmer root temps give faster growth. I think most studies show 72-77f to be ideal. Above that because of the shift in growth speed so increased demand and the fact warmer water holds lower concentration of o2 things go downhill over those temps.

I probably should have been more clear that cooler temps I was referring to the kratky method. Clones and seedlings have very minimal o2 demand. But if trying to grow full size cannabis plants a cooler temp may benefit and ease the demand on o2. Of course it's going to depend on the res size, light, temps and all that stuff
 
Matthewstever

Matthewstever

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My understanding is that the cooler temps ( I run my res at 67°f) help keep bacterial growth down. Since my system is a virtual pig sty ( totally not sterile) I'm ok with a little slower growth as a trade off.
I have a "bubbler" in each bucket. Started the system without one, it top feeds and Cascades thru the hydroton...thought it would be enough o2. Growth rate basically doubled when I added air. It's not a massive pump..so there's no violent agitation...and my tubing is long enough that the air cools off before reaching the buckets...
Anyway, that was my experience. Your results may vary.
 
PhatNuggz

PhatNuggz

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This is still a bubbler. Airstones, tubes with holes, whatever. All bubblers.

I am looking for people who use some kind of flooming or a waterfall for cloning.
Want to know how they use it, and how they builded it.

Are you referring to my DIY plastic bottle with holes? The inside has a combination of platonic solids and marbles.

The pump is below the water line (no ambient air is being sucked in as with air pumps). Now that this is in the bottom of my F & D rez, as the nutes are pumping into the totes, the waterline lowers to a point where the nutes spray up into the open air space (once occupied by the much higher waterline). This not only aerates the nutes, it circulates them

hth
 
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PhatNuggz

PhatNuggz

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163
The roots on solo plant that wilted are too tough, not making root hairs, so I decided to chop the crap out of them, hoping to force new root growth. Of course this caused the whole plant to wilt. And it may not recover, but it wasn't doing anything anyway, so...

Plants are fine, but not growing, so I replaced the flower nutes with V + B nutes + Silica + Zone (also need to add some Enzymes and/or NPK RAW veg Microbes)

Today's task: Making a rack for the totes to sit on, with open space so I can use the new totes which have feed/drain plug on the bottom. Unfortunately, these totes only have one flat are (in the center) so I won't be able to angle the totes for max drain

Pics later
 
PhatNuggz

PhatNuggz

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163
Helpful video on which uvB bulb for your grows

UV Grow light comparison | UV grow light guide | Solacure Philips Agomax


 
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