Couple Of Harvest-related Questions..

[LVSkunkWorx]

Greetings. Two queries WRT harvesting strategy:

What I know of as "gradual harvest". Got turned onto this by a Michigan breeder after 3-4 text-book harvests. Basic idea is rather than picking a date for the harvest, set up a time-window for the harvest, taking the most mature stuff on top at the beginning of the window and (after trimming out the canopy covering the lower stuff), then letting the lesser buds that have been missing the light fatten up and finish a bit more (7-14 additional days), eventually taking the rest. This works great for me because I seem to always be taking the buds at the peak of perfection, rather than simply taking the all on some arbitrary date and putting up with the lesser stuff. I would estimate I get about 10-20% more weight out of it. The thing is, I am doing this in a very simplistic fashion and wondered if any of the more seasoned folks have refined this more than I have (which is not at all). I feel like there is more than can be done with this but something like this takes time to experiment with personally.

The second query is about something else I have come to adopt, the idea of a continual harvest. Again, there may be another term for it but this is what I know. This is simply the idea of keeping say 10 plants, six in bloom, 4 in veg. In my case the 10 are set up in pairs with each pair being of the same age. All plants in my case are about 3 weeks apart in age so when one pair gets harvested from bloom, I take the next-oldest pair in veg and move it to bloom. At any give time there are 3 pairs of plants in bloom 3 weeks apart in harvest-cycle. When something gets taken from veg I make sure I either have clones or seedlings going and move a new pair of (something) to the Autopots that will eventually land in bloom.

Thing is, when managed properly you never have a big harvest but you always have a stream of herb coming in and no matter what you are three weeks from the next harvest. This is some powerful mojo for me.

The problem or query for anyone doing this already is the management or scheduling. I don't quite have enough experience to do this efficiently; I either end up with too much in veg or too little thats "ready" for bloom. If anyone would care to cast some pearls of wisdom my way, I would be most grateful.

Peace
lvsw

 

[Darkstreets]

your perpetual harvest is what is refered to here as Sea of Green or SOG, as far as the harvesting question i dont really see much more that can be done if you have the time and space to let lower growth finish 2 weeks later then that would be the ideal approach. but if you run a SOG you will need the flowering space since the veg will be ready to be put in flower. SOG is more of a schedule thing. so chop and get the next batch in there.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

@Darkstreets: cheers for the info. This is why I ask questions. Far too often growing is such a solitary thing that you kinda gotta make it up as you go. In this case I was under the mistaken idea that SOG (Sea of Green) was a method of growing and maturing a lot of young/small plants, basically leveraging inside growing. No idea it also had to do with staggered plant cycles like this. Sometimes the hardest question to get an answer to is the one you don't know how to as correctly. Now I do. Cheers.

As for the gradual harvest, I can see maybe two ways it can be tweaked or improved:
1. As everyone knows, pot isn't just "ready" on a given date; there is a period when the quality and type of lift changes dramatically. Close familiarity with your favorite strain combined with knowledge of what you like best should allow one to really grab all of the perfect buds at the perfect time. This might not be doable though unless you have a lot of spare time to stare at trichs through a glass.
2. Right now my drying options are either the full hanging of branches (which never happens with this, lots of small shorties) or the classic herb drying rack. I love the first method for the end-product but love the second because it works better with this system and uses space alot more efficiently. That said, I am sure someone out there has dealt with this and worked out a reasonable middle-ground between the two methods.....

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Gradual harvest would put me behind on the next crop. If it takes me two weeks to harvest then I'm two weeks behind on the next crop. My solution only grow tops that are ready all at the same time. Outdoor plants I have harvest gradually.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

Gradual harvest would put me behind on the next crop. If it takes me two weeks to harvest then I'm two weeks behind on the next crop. My solution only grow tops that are ready all at the same time.

Interesting. Pls assume I don't know shit because I only have the experience I have earned over the past year. So in "only grow tops" does that mean you trim out everything that isn't a top? If so, when? If not, how do you deal with stuff growing under the canopy? I know it makes OK oil, etc but would rather improve those flowers as much as is possible with my limited knowledge.

As for the time-window, I guess I just account for that in my math for what I guess is called a SOG (what I know as a continual harvest). I have two Autopots of girls that are waiting in the wings (so to speak) on a slow-veg. When the window is done, the last of the old plants are harvested, the Autopots they are in are recycled and reset for the next generation and the two I had sitting in veg just get moved over and then their clock starts ticking.

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Yes shave the lowers basically everything that is below my trellis. I do it in stages a little in veg, beginning of flowering and try to have it all cut out by the end of first week, sometimes I get behind and don't clear everything until the end of week 2. Couldn't find any pics of under the screen but this is what I'm talking about.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

Yes shave the lowers basically everything that is below my trellis. I do it in stages a little in veg, beginning of flowering and try to have it all cut out by the end of first week, sometimes I get behind and don't clear everything until the end of week 2.

Again, interesting. Has anyone ever done a test to see what was sacrificed (lower branches and bud) vs what was gained? I am not saying trimming all but the tops isn't better; everyone has to do what works right for them and in their exact situation. Thats the hard part about giving advice based on personal experience; what works for me could prove disastrous for someone else. In my case I feel like I am getting more quality bud this way but without more experience, I don't know what is gained going the other way...

Just a little caveat on my demeanor; I am a disabled engineer that has a need to try to figure things out. I ask a lot of questions and sometimes it makes people uncomfortable. So when I am asking about proof of someone elses idea, its just me looking for data.

In any event, thank you for taking the time to answer as you have! SCRoG is another thing that I had to give up due to keeping three different generations of plants in bloom; one size fits all doesn't work anymore...

 

[embaks]

Again, interesting. Has anyone ever done a test to see what was sacrificed (lower branches and bud) vs what was gained? I am not saying trimming all but the tops isn't better; everyone has to do what works right for them and in their exact situation. Thats the hard part about giving advice based on personal experience; what works for me could prove disastrous for someone else. In my case I feel like I am getting more quality bud this way but without more experience, I don't know what is gained going the other way...

Just a little caveat on my demeanor; I am a disabled engineer that has a need to try to figure things out. I ask a lot of questions and sometimes it makes people uncomfortable. So when I am asking about proof of someone elses idea, its just me looking for data.

In any event, thank you for taking the time to answer as you have! SCRoG is another thing that I had to give up due to keeping three different generations of plants in bloom; one size fits all doesn't work anymore...

I always cut the lower stuff off way before I put the plant in flower, I start as soon as the plant is two weeks old, as well as start topping at the same time. Focus all the energy to the tops of the plant and the cola's will be thick as well as getting long, the bottom stuff isn't as potent as the top, what's the point of having bud you don't want to smoke? Besides turning it into something else

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

Focus all the energy to the tops of the plant and the cola's will be thick as well as getting long, the bottom stuff isn't as potent as the top, what's the point of having bud you don't want to smoke?

I guess thats exactly the point of the gradual harvest; by taking the tops and canopy at the beginning and leaving the rest to ripen/fatten more under direct light for 7-14 days, its turns that bud I didn't want to smoke into bud that I did. The difference to me is amazing. I wish I could take better pics in there to show what I mean. At present, I am halfway through a slightly complex harvest (got one Exorcist needing a full nine weeks with a 7-8 week Kens Med USA) but the point is, at this moment both plants have been...harvested in half I guess you could say. When I did it was just the lesser lower buds showing; as of this morning those lesser buds are now looking more like tops. I know a single photo proves nothing but I *do* like the feeling of getting two batches of tops off each plant...

Hard to see but the left side has Exorcist, the right is the bottom-half of a Kens Med USA plant...the extra time in direct light really made a difference. If the coloration looks weird, I have 600wHPS right next to a 300W LED which makes the plants all look weird colors depending on the angle....

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

Update: finished the final harvest on the Exorcist (right in above pic) and I must say I am sold on the technique. Even at the bottom of the plant, where you would expect to find the worthless whispy crap, I found maybe 3 of those anywhere on whats left of the plant. All the rest, to a one became fat and round like golf-balls. Exorcist has a low leaf-to-bud ratio to begin with and there were no crappy buds....even thinner branches the size of a toothpick had big round buds at the tips....

Bottom line is, I honestly don't see what training would do for this to improve it any. I might have topped it once but the tops are long-gone....

I am very pleased ^__^
(_̅_̅_̅(̲̲(̅_̅_̲̅м̲̅a̲̅я̲̅i̲̅j̲̅u̲̅a̲̅n̲ ̅a̲̅_̅_̅_̅()ڪے~ ☮

 

[xavier7995]

Looks nice man:) I don't think SOG and perpetual are the same thing. SOG is just a bunch of small plants...but does lend itself to a perpetual harvest. Perpetual is just having two grow rooms/chambers/areas where one is on a veg light schedule and the other is in flower. Once a plant is done, you have another one ready to go in and take its spot. I think running clones of only a few strains would be the best approach as you are right the timing is hard.

For your gradual harvest, how would you go about flushing them? Seems like the lowers would be pretty hungry and the plant itself wouldn't have much time to recover from getting cut...but I guess that could trigger some sort of plant science reaction where the energy all gets put into the lowers.

I am putting together a perpetual type thing myself. Going to train the little fellows heavily to keep them small in a little box with low light since you have quite a bit of time for the veg process while stuff flowers. Then as plants finish just pull them out of the big flower tent and stick the smaller ones in. Really going to have to rely the stretch period to make up the size though. I also clear out most of the lower growth during veg and up till the flip so it will focus on the nice big top colas, still wind up with a decent amout of larfy lower stuff but what can you do.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

Perpetual is just having two grow rooms/chambers/areas where one is on a veg light schedule and the other is in flower. Once a plant is done, you have another one ready to go in and take its spot. I think running clones of only a few strains would be the best approach as you are right the timing is hard.

Damned straight it is. Sometimes I think I bite off more than I can chew. Making it work right means making it work smoothly and reliably. To do that you need to be able to say "on such and such date I want a (for example) Trainwreck, which means I must have a healthy teen ready on such and such date, and THAT means I need to start the seed here or take the clone on that date...".

Slight digression: I am a disabled software engineer and one thing I can't get out of my head is the concept of a cannabis growing simulator app, would allow you to do what-if grow scenarios to see when it makes sense to plant, clone, whatever. At first you would just enter what you are doing (planting seed, taking clone, flowering a plant, starting flush, etc)..over time it would "learn" your growing habits (and the habits of your plants). The punchline would be when it learns enough (simple ANN or neural network could get it done), it would know enough to be able to automatically schedule harvests, flushes, best clone-taking time, seed-starting, etc. For example you could start it up on Monday and ask it whats up in the week; it could very easily tell you something like "on Wednesday you need to take cuttings of plant such-and-such because Friday it needs to go to bloom. Thurday you need to start the GSC seeds for the scheduled flower of that plant in 45 days, etc.

Doing a single crop at a time this would not help at all but if you have any kind of non-trivial continual grow going on, this would help me alot. I or anyone can figure all this out with a calendar, lots of experience and pencil and paper but 25 years of doing the software crap, there is a voice inside my head screaming this is the perfect job for a computer. Unfortunately I don't know if I will ever complete this with the brain problems...

Sorry, geeked out for a second.. I am OK now..

For your gradual harvest, how would you go about flushing them? Seems like the lowers would be pretty hungry and the plant itself wouldn't have much time to recover from getting cut...but I guess that could trigger some sort of plant science reaction where the energy all gets put into the lowers.

Well, before I tell you, I am still teaching this stuff to myself so some of it I am still trying to find the best way to do. WRT flushing, that is a little dependent on your grow method. I am going pretty much Autopots for everything flower-wise and as such, I can control the feeds to each pair of ladies. That is why my "generations" (not sure if there is better term; "two plants destined to be harvested together of a similar maturity") are in pairs. So the flush kinda works like this:
I decide that as of today I am harvesting in four days. First, I shut the feed valve off for that pair (which shares a reservoir), then top-feed pure water for four days. I take the tops, then return the plant to normal feeding for 7-10 more. Then I repeat the process with the bottom-half. Not perfect but hey its a learning experience and the herb tastes pretty good (smooth).

Does it always work out this well? Human nature being what it is, no...but like being a good person, its not a goal, its a path...

Whats kinda weird about using these two techniques together is, the gradual harvest + continual harvest = always harvesting something. Think about it: in my setup, every three weeks something new is ready. However as happened this time, the two plants were about 10 days apart in expected flower period. This happens often because I learned not to place all eggs in a single wicker recepticle so each generation has two different strains in it. Anyhow, combine that with the gradual harvest with each half being about 7-10 days apart...add it all up and you are in the bloom tent about once a week gathering something....not a ton but enough...

 

[xavier7995]

Sorry, geeked out for a second.. I am OK now..

Its cool bud, I look at the same way and work out automating systems/thought for my job so it is something I think about. I think something like that would help quite a bit, but the human factor in growing is huge, really hard to get something that would hit it spot on, but I think you could probably get close. Even with clones and the exact same growing parameters, plants are living things and going to have some slight differences. You are right that it could a great tool, i just hate over reliance on tools like that. It breaks my brain the number of times people have failed to distinguish between 1M and 100M because a system pulled in bad data or had a glitch and they couldn't figure out what to do. RANT!!!!!

 

[mittenmedgrow]

First of all your nugs look great. Not trying to criticize but this method seems terribly inefficient to me. An extra two weeks for 10-20% increase in yeild sounds like it would barely pay for the electric and fertilizer not to mention your 2 weeks behind on the next crop causing you to have at least one less crop a year. Also your use of space looks inefficient you could have much better yeilds by filling your space densely with tops. Creating a thick dense canopy is essential to achieve high yeilds and to use your space efficiently. Judging by your pics you could have a lot more buds growing in there. It looks very sparce. Please don't take this the wrong way but there is many reasons why nobody uses this method indoors but many do outdoors. I think you would do much better for yourself if you would densely fill your space and learn how to train and prune properly. Training and pruning properly will make a huge difference in your yeilds, you will harvest more quality buds in less time. Again think of this as constructive criticism not bashing you at all, even after many years of growing I'm still learning and evolving my methods and appreciate input from other growers immensely. Also when I say create a canopy I'm not talking about thin layer of just tops. Canopy depth depends on what kind of lighting your using, big lights = deep canopy, little lights = less depth . Example I'm using a lot of light with good penetration I'm looking to get a 3-4 foot deep canopy of densely packed buds. I'm not talking about lollipoping and growing just tops but growing just the upper part of the plant, the part that the light will get to to grow a dense bud.

If you can tell by the pic the bottom 16 in or so is trimmed and all of the branches become the top of the plant with a thick and deep canopy of quality buds. These plants are almost done stretching and there is about 6-12 inches of bud sites below the screen and when you add that to what will be above the screen I'm getting my 3-4 foot deep canopy of good growth. The pic I posted before is at the flip and will stretch up 2 to 3 ft above the screen. If you notice in the pic above the screen is not full so I didn't use my space very efficiently there either. I was short a few plants to fill her properly.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

@mittenmedgrow: Cheers for the tips and information. I have no real ego here, I know for fact for every single thing I think I do know, I am also confident that there are 10 I don't and maybe another 10 I have misunderstood. Many hilarious tales in that last category.

In fact though, you kinda caught my grow at an awkward time in that I just a few key bits of things fail on me so lost some clones ripple effect up the pipelines. Further, I am in the process of making the entire grow setup (well the veg/bloom bits) the same and standardizing on Autopots. This is a switch from any of Ebb and Flow, DWC, straight soil and duoponics of another medium (Octopots). As such, alot of what used to be in the bloom tent is now gone into the shed and the new stuff is waiting in the wings. Finally I have been using the space to experiment with different lights (have three kinds in there right now, CFL, LEDs (420W total) and HPS (600w). Just playing but the equipment that will go in there soon (accompanied by plants, natch) isn't ready yet; thats a christmas fuck-off-period job. This is what bloom looked like a month or so ago:

This picture also displays the problem of the continual harvest, everything in there is a different maturity. I have learned to standardize some but I do use my space as best I can...veg was like this:

You got your Octopots in back, DWC on the left and clone and seed experiments (also DWC at that point) on the right.

Always got something cooking...^__^

Man did I digress; this Exorcist is pretty good shit. Anyhow soon I will have 6 plants in continual rotation in bloom with at least 4 waiting in veg at any given time. Still going DWC and arero for seeds and clones though.....

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Like I said before the buds you grew look to be top quality. The pic you posted above looks much better I was wrong thinking that other pic earlier in the thread was a full room. Looks much better in the month ago pic. Bottom line is if your getting what your looking for out of your space that's what counts. I'm running about 7 g a month in overhead so I really try to focus on maximum production and efficiency but I still have lots of room for improvement as you can see by my empty space in the pic above. Lighting up floors and walls is not very efficient at all. You really seem to enjoy what your doing and the quality looks great keep on doing your thing man.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

@mittenmedgrow: I take maybe 20% credit but as I have been only growing for a year now (last year this time I was just putting my first crop to flower), I know much of that 20% is luck. The remainder though I must credit to the source strain, Exorcist (Ambulance x Harlequin Jo) bred by a cool seed place in Michigan...these things caught me by surprise at how heavy the trich coverage is and how blasted heavy the lift is....high CBD/THC makes this one a knock-out smoke wise but for our purposes, this thing is the growingest strain I have done so far (GSC, NYC Diesel, Thin Mints, Cherry Pie, Bubba Kush, Exorcist, Mojo, Locomotive Breath, Phantom, Kens Med USA and OG Kush)...just grows strong, tall when you let it and has a very high bud to leaf ratio...fem a while back and have been living on the clones ever since. Really strong grow, great for beginners, very forgiving...
Stupid Exorcist pic I made for the breeder...

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

Like I said before the buds you grew look to be top quality. The pic you posted above looks much better I was wrong thinking that other pic earlier in the thread was a full room. Looks much better in the month ago pic. Bottom line is if your getting what your looking for out of your space that's what counts. I'm running about 7 g a month in overhead so I really try to focus on maximum production and efficiency but I still have lots of room for improvement as you can see by my empty space in the pic above. Lighting up floors and walls is not very efficient at all. You really seem to enjoy what your doing and the quality looks great keep on doing your thing man.

Also keep in mind:
* I just grow for myself and the missus
* As such, I only keep about 18-20 plants max at any one time (everything from seedlings to fully mature plants)
* Being disabled, on days when my brains doesn't go south I can afford to micro-manage the process and "tinker".

Add it all up and it means I can afford to screw around with different things and in my exact case, smooth, reliable and constant production is of vastly more value than maximum production. If the latter were the case I would be all aeroponics bloom and veg in a heart-beat. I guess I think of this as "boutique" gardening....

 

[mittenmedgrow]

That's where I used to be at one time in my life and I miss it. My life is now consumed by gardening. I still like growing but not nearly as much as I used to.

 

[LVSkunkWorx]

That's where I used to be at one time in my life and I miss it. My life is now consumed by gardening. I still like growing but not nearly as much as I used to.

Last time I will ever say this but....yeah in a lot of ways I do feel lucky....however the freedom afforded by this luck, this situation was not voluntary and I miss being far more functional. Also, the same thing that pushed me into this "freedom" also might yank it away in a few years or so. All things are relative. While I can't do what I did two years ago, my goal is to make growing a modest crop like this a repeatable and reliable process that can be done by anyone on a shoesting. The goal isn't to make the most but make a "good" crop available to anyone, regardless of disablility (or innate ability).

To paraphrase a drill sergeant from another lifetime, the process needs to be "feed the monkey, watch it shit" simple, while still being best of breed, etc. Why I am trying to learn a bit about everything. I don't have the chops to do my old gig anymore but I am working out an inexpensive Octopot/Autopot/DWC hybrid that is resistant to crappy luck, temps, powerloss, memory loss and inexperience while turning out bud like in the above shots or better.

Edit: To clarify: simple, cheap and reliable are not buzzwords; I am planning for a future where I may very likely need assistance (so the process can NOT be complicated), may need reliable meds (QP per month, do already) and a shoestring budget is the definition of SS.