Damaged Plant Leaves

[jacobh]

Hello, I am on my first grow and have been in the flowering stage with my plants for the past 4 weeks. One is a hybrid sativa called larry kush and the other is a hybrid indica called jamaician kush. I'm using a 150 watt High Pressure Sodium lamp 12/12 cycle with two desk fans blowing in the grow closet. I purchased the plants as clones and vegged for 3 weeks 24 hrs light on and then switched to the 12/12. I originally transplanted the clones into 5 gallon pots using fox farm ocean forest. I did not feed them any nutes, only water from my reverse osmosis faucet. For the past few weeks the plant size growth has slowed considerably and the majority of growth appeared to be in the buds. About this time I also started noticing the ends of the leaves getting yellow and sometimes the whole fan leaves, along with some leaves curling upwards and getting crispy dry on the ends. I have been watering about 2 cups every 3 days or so when the upper layer of the soil is dry at about 1.5 inch. My sativa has grown taller than the indica and the very top has been about 6 inches from the bulb (I have a fan blowing between the top of plant and light, and when I hold my hand above the plant it does not feel too hot). I initially thought the leaves may be getting too hot, but some of the problem leaves(with dryed up and curled tips) where largely shaded at the bottom of the plant. Also, the bud at the very top looks the best and it's fan leaves are not dryed and curled. I then figured that it may be a nutrient deficiency, so I puchased fox farm big bloom and cal-mag. I mixed about 1/3 recommended doses of each with water from the reverse osmosis faucet and fed 3 cups of the mixture to each of the plants. I have thus waited 4 days since doing this and the plants do not appear to be improving. The next thing I am going to try is moving the plants away from the 150 watt bulb and go back to feeding them just water. Also the temperature in the grow space ranges from 65 at night to 85 in the day. The humidity varies between 25 and 55 percent and I have not yet monitored the pH of either the water, nute water, or soil. I have attached some photos to help with a diagnosis. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks

 

[ArtofHydro]

looks like hell of a burn. the fact that you were just using straight water from R/O system tells me that you were depriving your plants from CalMag. There are other things that could deffinatey be affecting your grow. In my opinion, your bulb is way too close to your plants. even though your using a 150 Watt bulb, i would give them atleast 16"-18" of distance from the bulb. HID bulbs give off an amense amount of heat within the first 12" of the bulb. Also plants dont like being to close to HID bulbs. There IS such thing as TOO MUCH light and your plant cannot photosynthesize the amount of light its receiving. The leaves will cower down, thin, and roll to make effort to escape. Another thing i noticed is that you dont check your PH. Now plants do grow when not keeping a strict PH, but they DO NOT grow to their full potential. Thing about it as running a car with a powerful engine that runs way better an a high octane, but your only giving it low grade. It will run, but not as well as if it were being given what it wants. So before you waste money and time, balance your PH around 6.0. When your PH is too high, it runs out of the spectrum of nutrients its going to allow your plant to intake. Most common problem is CalMag deficiency when PH is not balanced right. Which brings me back to what i first stated.
So these are three items i would fix asap:
- Light Height
- PH balance
- CalMag if using R/O (reverse osmosis) water.
Now its going to take more than 4 days to correct errors as severe as yours. Your plants took a beating and you most likely wont see much growth for 9-14 days.
I highly suggest you do research or pick up a book and match an "ideal" environment for your plants. Farmers have been at this for years, and what they say and post is something they have most likely learned from first hand experience.

Oh and one more thing, Im not one to post negative things because i feel it be-littles someone whom is asking for help. But FYI, you posted this in the advanced technique section when it clearly belongs in the nube section. I wont call you out but i know for a fact that other farmers on here will jump all over you.

much luck,
Art

 

[jacobh]

Thanks Art, the info is much appreciated. I have already moved my plants away from the light and the next stop is to get a pH balance meter. In this situation does the Fox Farm Big Bloom help or hurt the situation? (assuming that the nute mixture comes out at a 6.5 pH reading). Also, thanks for the heads up on the forum categories, I will try to move this post or re-post in the n00b forum.

 

[ArtofHydro]

no problem my man. Ph pens can be expensive but i feel that they are fully worth it. you can go cheap and get a PH test kit which comes with a solution and vial. you put ur nutrient mix in the vial, and put 3-4 drops of solution in it and judge the color it turns. I DON'T recommend this method by any means, but it is another option if ur on a budget.
As far as Big Bloom, i would keep adding the recomended amount to your mixture. Big Blooms doesnt have much of an NPK ratio, its derived from Bat Guano, Earth Worm Castings, Sea Bid Guaono, some kelp, and other phosphates. These are great products to keep a microbial beneficial life within your root mass. also contains small amounts of essential macro elements and micro nutrients. Honestly, i rocked Fox Farms for my first year growing. I had great results which inspired me to keep learning more and more. I recommend going on Fox Farms website and looking up their FEEDING CHART. It will tell you the ratios of each product you use due to the whatever week your plant stage is in. I followed the chart firm and had great results.
Now i noticed you were using Fox Farms Ocean Forest. This is a great soil product but you must know that it contains alot of "stuff". I recommend not using any nutrients for 3-4 weeks until your roots absorb most of the nutrients in the soil. If you dont wait and start using nutes, your more liable to burn your babies, and no one likes burnt babies ha. Your plants will tell you when its lacking a valuable nutrient, although it might take time for your ears to tune in to what your plants telling you.
anyways much luck and dont be afraid to ask questions although i preach for one to do research first.
Art

 

[catdaddy]

definitely looks like over watering or waterlogged soil.

 

[jacobh]

Hey Art and Catdaddy,

I am having some real trouble with my plants here. Tried to fix the problem by moving away from the light and testing the pH of the feeding solution (corrected it to be at 6.0). I also repotted the plants to aerate the soil and make sure the roots where getting enough oxygen. I fed them both about 3 cups of a nutrient mixture including Fox Farms Big Bloom and Cal-Mag, with pH down to set at 6.0, using R.O water. These photos were taken 5 days from the last feeding. I know you are supposed to use the "lift the pot" method to know when to water the plants, but in general, how much and how often are you supposed to water plants of these sizes in the flowering stage? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[TJCannabis]

Hello Jacob, I just got thru reading your post here, you have several issues going on here. I agree with Art for the most part. I am going to tell you what I think and some is just a repeat of what Art has said. I'm new to this site but been growing since 1977 with only a few breaks. I am old school in many ways, but the geek in me does experiment. I don't do it on the main crop, I play mad scientist with a TEST group when I have time !! You should probably do some CANNABIS GROWING HOMEWORK !!

It is not a good idea to give your plants 24 hr of "daylight", most indoor growers, including myself are on a 18/6 for vegetation (not the problem, but can cause other issues)

When using RO you need to add the Cal/Mag cause that is what is removed by the RO process.

The distance from your light WAS NOT the problem, but IS NOW !! You are way too far away. I have two 1000W HPS on light movers in the Bloom Room and one 1000W MH in the Veg Room. My girls including a couple of very picky strains are only 3-5 inches from the lights on movers and 6-8 inches under the MH. When very young is good idea to leave more room. You keep them too far away the plant will stretch out too much. If you get them too close, will see it in the top damage the same day and not anywhere else. Put your hand between them and the light to help you. I don't have "direct air" going over any of my lights, but I do have a VORNADO in the rooms, it keeps the air temp the same from top to bottom just fine!!

Your watering can be improved on. You should pour the water until is just starts to run out the bottom. Don't water again until is dry on top and the pot/bucket is on the light side, don't wait too long (you will be able to tell better with more experience). I use a soil pH and moister meter cause I have some strains that are very picky about the pH. They all don't use the nutes the same, some drain more of one than the other, but I have found that keeping my as close to pH 6 works for 95% of all strains I have grown over the past 35 yrs. With today strains I would buy yourself a pH and moisture meter for the soil and a pH/ppm combo for your nutes, makes life easier.

Your problem looks to be more Nute LOCK UP and possible root issues from too much water (maybe). Art is correct in that about the soil having lots of good nutes already. I also use a great soil but I do add nutes, but never more than 300 ppm to start, up to 600 ppm max. I have never gone any higher in the last 20 yrs. Once a month flush your plants, this will help prevent lockup.

I would flush these girls and get the pH corrected in the soil ASAP !! Then give them the Cal/Mag since you are depleting that with RO. Then just water for the next week, there should be no damage or yellowing in any new growth!!

I am going to post some pics, this site does the pics from most I belong too ! I tend to post them way to big lol !! The testers I use, bought both on Amazon for under $130 ea, another Soil pH and Moisture meter that I bought for a newbie friend is half the price, just takes 10 mins to get a reading and a pic where you kinda see how close the lights are. My pickiest strains at the moment are Jack Herer, Purple Wreck and Lemon Skunk. My Point of No Return is fairly easy but does not like a pH above 6 had a problem locked it up, but it has recovered nicely !! Hope this made sense, after midnight and been a long day!!

 

[TJCannabis]

I can tell is late and I am tired, still have to water my plants. Just because your nutes are 6pH does NOT mean the soil is !!! When I said get the pH to 6, I meant in the pots !!! I am growing 9 strains, they are not all the same cause they uptake nutes at different rates !! I tend to make the pH in my nute solutions between 5 and 5.5 as most of the current strains tend to go over 6 in the soil. I have my plants grouped as to what they like & need, I have 3 groups of 8 plants. Maximum under the privacy/personal property law is 24 plants, under Medical is a joke, 6 with 3 in bloom and 1 oz or dried!! I suffer from Multiple Sclerosis, Glaucoma, Chronic pain, migraines w/nausea and INSOMNIA from HELL !! The Conservatives in office at the time who wrote the MM law are not the doctor, had no growing experience and never considered that a person might have several treatable issues. Sorry being an activist now !! Save for another post !!

 

[jacobh]

Thanks TJ,
Lots of good info. I moved my plants back up closer to the light and just have a few questions. You say that the problem I am experiencing is most likely Nute Lockup and possibly too much water. I bought a pH soil meter and the readout is 6.7 (even though the feeding formula was at 6). Your recommendation is to flush and get the pH to 6. How exactly do you flush? If I pour water in the pots, but the soil is already waterlogged, won't this make the problem worse? I haven't watered for 6 days and while to topsoil is dry, if I dig up a little bit, it still seems moist. How often and how much should I be watering? My plants are looking pretty bad and they might be beyond repair, but I would like to learn as much as possible so that next time around I won't run into these problems. Thanks again,
JH

 

[catdaddy]

hey Jacobh, my apologies for not expounding a little more on what i wrote earlier in the thread.
it appears that you are having multiple deficiencies from over watering and possibly from the ro water.

from my understanding, it's impossible to be burnt from lack of feeding, that's like telling someone who's suffering from anorexia that they are fat.
what seems to be the problem is that your soil is staying wet for too long (waterlogged), which is causing your roots to suffocate and not allowing them to take in any nutrients.

what size pots were they in before they went into 5 gals? for starters, next time try to go from 1gal to 3gal then 5gal. after watering let the soil dry out enough to where the pot feels light upon you picking it up.
if your in 5 gal of soil you should not need no more than 6 liters to soak whole medium (1 liter per gal). when you water, water in a liter at a time 2-3 minute intervals. ex if i am in 5 gal of soil, i would take a liter and pour it in, then wait 2-3 mins and pour another and so on and so on. when i reach 5 liters i'd wait about 5 minutes to let the water seep down and soak as much medium as 5 liters can possible soak up and take my last liter, which would be my 6th liter, and pour just enough to get some runoff.
hope that helps.

 

[TJCannabis]

Hello Jacob, Catdaddy has a very good point about being waterlogged. I was not sure from your post if that is an issue or not. I almost killed one of my Jack Herer’s from too much water, I was teaching a friend somehow the one plant never got in my log and we were both watering her. She looked almost as bad your girls, did not water her for almost 3 weeks. She did not fully recover but did improve, got about 60g vs.180g off her sister.

I go from dixie cups straight to 5 gal buckets, but I have several friends that I recommended the same as Catdaddy and it works better for them. I have not stepped my containers from 1-3-5 gals in over 15 yrs, the way I water/tend my plants it isn't necessary. Did comparison yrs ago, but then I have been doing this long time, the step up process is better for beginners. You could try repotting them, but not sure that would help you at this point. Could be too much stress on top of what is going on. The soil needs to dry out so no watering for a while.

If they survive the drying out process, I would use something like Clearex to flush out any salt or nutrient build ups. I use it on my plants every 6 weeks as directed and as the end flush for a week before I harvest. Here is a description of Clearex.
Clearex is an isotonic drenching solution that unlocks the ionic bond between the nutrient and the soil or soilless grow substrate, correcting the problem of nutrient salt toxicity and lockout, allowing plants to excel again. Expect to see a burst of new growth.
Clearex is also used at the end of a crops cycle to trigger the last reproductive stage of the plant, forcing the plant to process and assimilate endogenous nutrients. CLEAREX contains specific electrolytes and selected mono and disaccharides, fructose and sucrose that give high energy and amplifies metabolic compounds to the plant. Pre harvest treatments can allow for enhanced flavor and increased yields in fruits, vegetables and culinary herbs by flushing out excess chemical nutrients.
Hope your girls survive, if not you should be better prepared for your next garden. The leaves will tell you what is happening, pay close attention cause most problems can be easily corrected and the sooner the better. You have a HAPPY NEW YEAR !!

 

[caregiverken]

Hey Art and Catdaddy,

I am having some real trouble with my plants here. Tried to fix the problem by moving away from the light and testing the pH of the feeding solution (corrected it to be at 6.0). I also repotted the plants to aerate the soil and make sure the roots where getting enough oxygen. I fed them both about 3 cups of a nutrient mixture including Fox Farms Big Bloom and Cal-Mag, with pH down to set at 6.0, using R.O water. These photos were taken 5 days from the last feeding. I know you are supposed to use the "lift the pot" method to know when to water the plants, but in general, how much and how often are you supposed to water plants of these sizes in the flowering stage? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

You Transplanted them into NEW Ocean Forest, and then fed them?

Like Art said, Ocean Forrest has lots of food in it already

I would flush them with straight water ...but, they may not want to drink nowo_O