Diagnosis Help Please. Lots of info & pics

[nickcapuano]

Hey, Nick. How are the plants? Did you ever try foliar feeding with epsom?

they are not doing well at all. when they start yellowing i can't get it stopped then they are toast as you see below. since i tried adding the epsom salts, the buds got larger than the last run and it took longer for the yellowing to progress throughout the whole plant but its still hit.

I tried foliar feeding when i started adding the epsom for the first couple of days and added it to the res as well. things looked better than the last few plants but i stopped foliar feeding and am just adding to the reservoir now. i didnt want to try too many things at once so i could try to see what was working and what is not.

i was hand watering these two so i could do a different program on each but once they started needing watering several times a day, i had to install the drip system and reservoir so they are on the same schedule now. at this point its very hard to tell any improvements that are made.

i am using the filtered water that is 0 ppm on the meter to start. 1 tsp/gal cal mag, 1 tsp/gal epsom salt, 10 ml gal bloom nutrients plus ionic boost and greenfuse at 1/4 tsp gal each. sorry for the poor quality pics

 

[nickcapuano]

does this still look like Mg def?
i am posting pics of the next two plants -same strain which have been flowering since 8/8.

when i tried the epsom salt last time it was a few weeks into flowering. these already have some signs on the lower leaves of something in the early stages. i am going to try adding one tsp/gal epsom to these and see if the yellowing progresses.

i have a friend that has well water and grows this strain and his plants do not yellow but a small fraction of what mine are doing so i assume its something in my nutes. how strong can the epsom be mixed? 1 tsp per gallon is the max i have read. i am afraid to try more in fear of locking other elements out.

any help is greatly appreciated. i am totally frustrated at this point and not sure what to try next.

 

[nickcapuano]

its just a couple of days later and they are still getting worse. i have been adding a tsp/gallon epsom salt to the nutrients. i am also foliar feeding one 1/2 tsp/gallon epsom salt and water to see if that helps but they look about the same now.

the tops of the plants look fine and they thrive during the vegetative stage. only when they go into flowering i have any problems with these. you can see from the pics in the last couple days they have grown a few inches and the tops look great but the leaves on the bottom look worse and the larger lower fan leaves have some yellowing between the veins and brown tips - some curling up.

the camera is not great so the colors are not as noticeable in these pics. i have been keeping the ph at 5.5-5.8 in veg and 5.8-6.0 in flowering. is this ok? does it still look like Mg deficiency or am i missing something? i thought about raising the pH as a test to like 6.2 to see if the plant responds....any thoughts on that or other ideas?

i have tried everything i can think of other than adding tons of epsom salts to the nutes. 1 tsp/gal brings the ppms pretty high. i may try much more of that but i think its just not being taken up by the plant.

you can see the progression and symptoms in these new photos

 

[crom]

Hope this helps

Are these plants in pure hydroton? Here's a chart that I refer to for PH, and lock out prior to any nute changes. I like to flush and check the PH and EC of the run off and see if I just need to flush well and adjust. I thought that it can take up to a week or so before your plants show that it's been "fixed" from a dose of said nutrient?

***Magnesium deficiency starts in the lower leaves. The veins remain green while the rest of the leaf turns yellow, exhibiting chlorosis. The leaves eventually curl up and then die. The edges of affected leaves feel dry and crispy. As the deficiency continues it moves from lower leaves to the middle to upper half. Eventually the growing shoots change from a pale green to white color. The deficiency is quite apparent in the upper leaves. At the same time, the stems and petioles turn purple.

*Remember that some strains express purple due to genetics, if it's for sure not genetics then there ya go.

1tsp. of Epsom salts/Gallon of PHed water in reservoirs or 1 tsp./quart in planting mixes. After the first treatment, treat with one-quarter dose with each watering or change of res. Cal-Mag can also be used.

For fast action Epsom salts can be used foliarly at the rate of 1 tsp./gallon. Cal-Mag can also be used foliarly as directed. ***

I also don't think that the damaged leaves will recover, though you should see healthy growth from now on.
Hope this helps :cool0041:

Cheers,
Crom

***Source: Marijuana Garden Saver, J.C. Stitch***

 

[nickcapuano]

the plants are in 6" rockwool cubes. they are just in the white tubs on top of hydroton and surrounded by it so light does not get to the roots or around the cube. it seems to grow better root systems with the paper off and surrounded by hydroton.

yes i have seen this chart and others that are similar but have different values so i wasnt sure which one to go by. when i look at this one, i should be fine where its at. i am going to keep on with the epsom and foliar feeding. maybe it will take a week or so to come around on them but i think i am missing why this is so drastic in the first place especially when in well water they are not having this problem. i have been using calmag in the nutes the whole time

 

[crom]

Hmm maybe you should use the well water then??

 

[nickcapuano]

Hmm maybe you should use the well water then??

i have considered it. i have city water and thought i could figure it out and i dont want to transport that much water. thats one idea though...

 

[crom]

Not an ideal situation, transporting water. Hell if it'll grow better meds then it might be worth it. Good luck

Cheers,
Crom

 

[amstercal]

Maybe you could get glacier water flown in? :-) Hopefully you'll be able to figure out your situation. If I had to guess, I would wager that your city water is high in Calcium and when you started filtering it, it decreased enough to stop blocking out the Phosphorus, which is what the deficiency looks like, to me at least.
Have you flushed really good yet? Sorry, I re-read your thread but didn't see you mention it. If you haven't, I would flush, reduce the Cal-Mag to 1/2 or even 1/4 with the filtered water. Keep on with the epsom--if it is Mg, you'll still be getting plenty from the epsom but not so much Calcium. Lots of people suggest flushing because it really can clear up some issues.
I would also ask your buddy for a complete list of his nute lineup, including ml's, ratios and ppm's. Maybe you could list yours too (list what product, how much you use and what the NPK ratios are for each). Maybe that will help some experts be able to help you--as I am no expert. Good luck! I hate to see plants struggling as we have all been there.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Stop putting Epsom in our res.

Don't use that blue chart. It sucks. St0ney made it after battling issues and threw in Epsom at the behest of OzGrowa who was an SOG dude, and, I have seen better SOG gardens.

But that is my memory. I am on a fuckin' missin with that chart apparently.:ridinghorse:

Use the black and white chart that is floating around.

Don't use PBP. It sucks. I did the PBP with Epsom one run. Had some issues looking like yours. You are hydro. Yes, some people can have okay lcuk with it, but it is not neccesary. Unless you use shit like PBP which is way, way low in Mg.

You need to redesign your nutrient regime and the way you are utilizing your growing area. Are you medical? Have specific plant counts, etc?

I'll reread the thread later on today, but this regime isn't working, fill in some blanks in detail about how long you have been growing, and any other garden issues and maybe some of us can get you rollin' in the right direction with the farming of Sweet Lady Jane.

 

[nickcapuano]

Stop putting Epsom in our res.

Don't use that blue chart. It sucks. St0ney made it after battling issues and threw in Epsom at the behest of OzGrowa who was an SOG dude, and, I have seen better SOG gardens.

But that is my memory. I am on a fuckin' missin with that chart apparently.:ridinghorse:

Use the black and white chart that is floating around.

Don't use PBP. It sucks. I did the PBP with Epsom one run. Had some issues looking like yours. You are hydro. Yes, some people can have okay lcuk with it, but it is not neccesary. Unless you use shit like PBP which is way, way low in Mg.

You need to redesign your nutrient regime and the way you are utilizing your growing area. Are you medical? Have specific plant counts, etc?

I'll reread the thread later on today, but this regime isn't working, fill in some blanks in detail about how long you have been growing, and any other garden issues and maybe some of us can get you rollin' in the right direction with the farming of Sweet Lady Jane.

Thanks for the reply. I have seen the other charts also and noticed the different values on them which was confusing.

Yes i am medical and limited to 12 plants. I have been growing indoors about 15yrs. Always did flood and drain but switched to rockwool with drip system when i had to limit the plant numbers for legal reasons. Never had a problem like this before.

I have been adding and adjusting Mg and CalMag when i discovered the deficiency and even changed to the zero water filter. After thinking about it, adding more and more MG with no improvement sounds like i have it locked out.

I had to stop growing for about a year thanks to LEO and after starting back up, i think i started using the CalMag before i saw a deficiency. I bought some before i stopped growing and when starting again, i think i just started adding it. I hope that i have just locked out the MG by adding too much CalMag. Because even with the foliar spray on one plant, it looks the same as the other that is not getting sprayed.

I used PBP for years and had no problems. After my small break, i thought the nutes may have gone bad so i bought some Ionic to give that a try. Same results though.

I have a friend i taught how to grow and we set a room up at his house. He uses PBP and grows the same strain. The only difference is he has well water. He is not having the Mg deficiency however. So i believe its something in my water/nutes. His water is about 400-450 from the tap. I have been adding more and more cal-mag and MG like i said with no good results. I even started bringing my water to 400ppm with the calmag thinking that would work. 10ml/gal with the zero water brought it to about 400ppm. I hope i just locked out the Mg by doing this.

I have another strain that had a small Cal deficiency. I started adding more calmag and now it is showing sings of Mg deficiency. So i think and hope i went overboard with the calmag and im just locking the Mg out.

I have more of this strain in veg room now and am willing to listen and try and ideas anyone has to get this to grow right.

I noticed on the PBP bottle it has Mg and calcium in it. When i use the filtered or RO water, is there ever a situation where you don't use any Calmag with this type of water or is it a must?

 

[nickcapuano]

Cat Jockey

I also have been adjusting the pH too often in the res. i have been working on this and trying so hard to fix the problem i think i have gone overboard on the calmag and also ph adjusting.

I used to have some drift in the pH in the res because it would rise after i mixed the batch until i adjusted it. Now i have been monitoring this stuff several times a day and adjusting too much. i think this is leading to lock out or poor uptake.

I have seen the other calmag thread and comments about the nutrient uptake charts. I think having my pH at one number is causing me big problems (about 5.5 for veg and 5.8-6.0 flowering.) i am backing off on the calmag and i'm going to mix the nutes and adjust to 5.5 when i make a new batch then let the pH rise to about 6.3-6.5 before i touch it.

i have seen people mix at 5.5 then let drift to 6.5. is that too much? will that drift in itself cause any problems?

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

to much calcium can lock out phosphorus as well as Mg. To much Mg wont really do much to your plants. Calcium, Mg and phosophorus go hand in hand too much of one or not enough of one will cause problems with the others.

Is there a way you can disconnect one plant from the system and just hand water it for a couple of weeks? try feeding it light with out the added cal-mag and see if the signs show faster or slower or not at all.

 

[Cat Jockey]

I also have been adjusting the pH too often in the res. i have been working on this and trying so hard to fix the problem i think i have gone overboard on the calmag and also ph adjusting.

I used to have some drift in the pH in the res because it would rise after i mixed the batch until i adjusted it. Now i have been monitoring this stuff several times a day and adjusting too much. i think this is leading to lock out or poor uptake.

Oh yea. Too much I think as well. Let that pH float to hit different absorption rates. I prefer 5.2 - 6.1. I start my tubs in the low 5's and let it rise naturally to about 6.1. I think 6.5 is pushing it a bit and you are flirting with precipitating out bloom nutes.

A range is a good thing IMO. Ranges can be nute line specific for sure though.

If I am using nothing but GH FLora series, I don't even check things, a meter never goes in the res. I know where it starts and I know where it will go over the course of a week - gradually rise. Then time for a weekly change.

Throwing pH stuff in your res can fuck it up for sure. This site has some good info about how to mix res' and nute precipitation, etc.



Good stuff under Nutrient Management on different ways to fuck up a res just by mixing it wrong. Reading a few of those tips might make you change your mind on letting your res climb to 6.5. ;)

I noticed on the PBP bottle it has Mg and calcium in it. When i use the filtered or RO water, is there ever a situation where you don't use any Calmag with this type of water or is it a must?

It is about the amounts of Mg in PBP. Yea, people have luck with it and grow good weed. I have a personal dislike of it, obviously.

I blew off an overnight raft trip today, so I have a bit of time. Throw up all of the guaranteed analysis % of the different nutes, the weight of the bottle in kg/g and the volume in L/mL and I will show how little it has compared to other lines.

Ever see Botanicare Sweet? MG baby. Ooops, we didn't put enough Mg in PBP, better make another product to buy. Take a second and throw those numbers up and I'll run them through pH's spreadsheet.

If you use RO water (which I strongly suggest unless you are organo or true soil (sand and clay)) you must use some type of Micro nute like CalMag+. Not all nutes lines need CalMag.

 

[cannagirl]

I may be way off here, but how wet is your rockwool? Honestly to me it looks like alot of different deficiencies which always leads me to root rot in rockwool. The way rockwool is designed, I never find drip systems to be the best way to deliver nutes. You need the ebb and flow of the water with rockwool to bring in a fresh supply of o2 to the root zone. I would try not to water them for a few days and see what happens. Dont worry about the rockwool drying out too quick, it wont. I let (150) 6inch rockwool cubes go for 9 days before I needed to water them. Im not telling you to go that long, maybe only 2 or 3 and see what happens...


As far as Mg and epsom salt, you definitely need it, check out this post on another site from Green Mopho

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one, REZ. While most strains will do well w/o CalMg issues using the recipe, or other nutrients, most nutrient regiments today can benefit from a extra dash of sulfur. While sea salt is a crude mixture of sodium compounds, epsom salt is pure magnesium sulphate, MgSO4. Plants require a ton of Mg and can't have too much of it, however when too much is present, it locks out Calcium and Potassium. The presence of sulphur is not only used as a micronutrient in the plant, but it assists chemical bonds and allows better uptake of Nitrogen. This is the premise of Lucas, cut out excess Mg and N in bloom to help increase mobility and uptake of calcium and potassium, which are more necessary in bloom. However, sulfur is a necessary micronutrient and most people these days find themselves using additives like Bud Candy or Sweet or FloraNectar, or even just molasses. They feel they need these to augment flavor (this is today's main argument against hydro from the organic guys). This is because of the sulfur content, read the labels on those 'sweetener' additives, on almost all of them the main ingredient is Magnesium Sulphate. Cannabinoids and terpenins are complex sulfur compounds and cannot form correctly without the presence of sulfur in the nutrient schedule. Most of these compounds form late in flower. Anything that we perceive as a strong odor (usually stinky) contains some amount of sulfur. Most complete nutrient lines and soil mixes used by growers today lack the correct amount of sulfur. The reason is that most of these nutrients and soils were formulated 15-20 years ago when there were higher concentrations of sulfuric acid (acid rain) in our atmosphere and ground water. Nutrient and soil companies back then reduced the amount of sulfur in their products to compensate. In today's world, environmental regulations have reduced a lot of the sulfur around us, and most indoor growers today are using filtered water. This resulting lack of sulfur causes a lack of flavor in the finished product. The nutrient companies are aware of this, but instead of adjusting their micronutrient line, they seem to find it more lucrative to sell you "flavor enhancing additives". If you are growing in hydro, the sugar in molasses will do very little to help your plant, the sugar only feeds the microbial life found in soil. The sulfur content however makes a huge difference in taste and smell!

 

[nickcapuano]

thanks again for the help.

i thought 6.5 sounded kind of high.

I tried the link to flairform.com but can't get it working. is that the correct address? i would really like to read those tips.

One more question: do you start at 5.2 and go to 6.1 in veg and bloom?

And finally, i want to say i used GH 3 part then PBP for many years with great results. When i started up again, i wanted to try something different. I did a little research but couldn't find one that really stuck out. a friend of mine has good luck with Ionic so i tried that line but i'm not crazy about it. so i am looking for a way to go for the long term. I have not figured it out yet but i will be doing some testing once i get this situation resolved. any recommendations? i am currently doing the 6" rockwool cubes with hydroton on the drip system and also DWC buckets.

 

[nickcapuano]

kidtwist- i can't separate the two in the pics because they need watered too often now and need to be connected to the res. But i have two more that are a few weeks behind these that i will test with. i have been doing these two at a time and testing different things on each during the phases i can get away with hand watering.

i'm hoping its like you said and too much Ca. that would make sense. the next run i will test with much less cal-mag.

 

[Cat Jockey]

www.flairform.com/

try that, click on the growers guide button.

 

[Cat Jockey]

As far as Mg and epsom salt, you definitely need it, check out this post on another site from Green Mopho

I disagree. You don't definitely need it.

Plants require a ton of Mg and can't have too much of it, however when too much is present, it locks out Calcium and Potassium.

SO which one is it. Cna't have too much or can have tto much.

You can have too much.

Don't get crazy with the epsom and that whole organic tastes and smells better than chem is absolute nonsense. Organics turned into this mystical magical nonesense, especially with stoners.

The shit just ain't true.

 

[edux10]

have you flushed that sucker out yet? I didnt read where you did. You should flush, then feed what it says on the bottle or a little less. If you are using RO water, add the cal/mg, especally if you use a nute that has none in it.

I have had those problems before. They show up when i run a bunch of different strains a cant dial each one in. Im going to do all one kind from now on after learning this.

When mine looked like that it was an over water and under feed problem. Flush and give it a little, food, wait for that to dry out and see if it helped. It will take a few days but it will either get worse or better. Maybe take a picture the day you flush to compare. I doubt the plant is being over fed, more like underfed or pH lockout.

If it doesnt get better, your best bet is to trow em out and start over. Doesnt look like you are too far along but you gotta do what you gotta do. sucks to take big losses but that is better than wasting your time.