Does foaming indicate micro life?

[Buddy Hemphill]

I know I will get flack for the AN chemmies...but here goes...

I dont have a scope, but I think I know the answer. But this is what I am experimenting with. I wish I had a scope.

AN's full line...Sensi Grow as the base. Chemmed out nuke's....

but I am adding a strong veg tea to offset lockup and keep the soil healthy.

Ok ... when I add the tea to the mix....the ph falls a good half point below where it normally goes whn adding to straight water. But if I watch...I get ph rise and the micro life foam very quickly.....in the chem mix rez.

I am adding a little extra tea to make up for what I am killing...and letting the tea go 72...adding a little kelp and molasses once around 48 hrs to pump up the herd....get it strong before they meet the Chem's.




So is the foam telling me I am not killing my herd completely? And if that is so....wont they overcome the chems once in the soil...where they can really work?



FWIW....the girls are going the FUCKOFF!!!!!!......it sounds cheesy...I know...but I am getting explosive growth.

 

[MEGA956]

//Im sure you'll find your answer in one of these pages..

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

//Im sure you'll find your answer in one of these pages..

I've been following that one since it started...lol....

not exactly though...I'm curious about foam as an indicator. It is when I brew beer.

edit: maybe it is in that thread....its eaaaarly and I am hiiiiiigh. I had some midnight oil to burn in the garden and started thinking.

 

[MEGA956]

//I've seen foam in waves at the beach, I guess its something water does, thats its instinct.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

//I've seen foam in waves at the beach, I guess its something water does, thats its instinct.

It only foams like this when I add the tea.

 

[Seamaiden]

I assume you're aerating the tea very well, and if that is the case, then the foam you see is a chemical reaction akin to something called foam fractionation. Foam fractionation works because certain molecules, often DOC-type (dissolved organic compound) molecules, have a hydrophobic (water hating/fearing) end and a hydrophilic (water loving) end. When the bubbles pass through the water column, especially if there's a lot of contact time between the bubbles and the water column, these molecules will attach the hydrophobic end to the bubbles, where they are then taken to the surface and turn into foam.

This is also why you see foam on beaches, and why some beaches are foamier than others. It's all got to do with what's dissolved in the water.

 

[Shredder]

I think the foam is telling you almost nothing except maybe there are phosphates, or other foaming agents in your "tea" The presence of foam or absence of it, does not indicate a tea that is alive with micro life. For instance you could add fish hydrolysate, or mineral oil to your tea and all foaming stops, but it is still active. Just not foaming. I suspect the opposite is true as well, that is foam does not guarantee microbe life either, because microlife populations does not always mean foam.

I have no microscope and will defer to those who do, but recently it has been observed that a rich microbe tea will lose microbes when guano is added. I speculate the tea can not take high nutrient concentrations, so i suspect when you mix a microbe tea with chems the same reaction is happening.

But without a microscope we are just specualting. Perhaps a detailed test with and without could help you pin down the answers you want. Or an investment in a scope. But if your plants are happy, do you care?

If you are adding teas to restore the micro life that chems have eliminated, why not add them seperate from your chems? Let them each do the job that they do without off setting each other.......... shredder

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

I think the foam is telling you almost nothing except maybe there are phosphates, or other foaming agents in your "tea" The presence of foam or absence of it, does not indicate a tea that is alive with micro life. For instance you could add fish hydrolysate, or mineral oil to your tea and all foaming stops, but it is still active. Just not foaming. I suspect the opposite is true as well, that is foam does not guarantee microbe life either, because microlife populations does not always mean foam.

I have no microscope and will defer to those who do, but recently it has been observed that a rich microbe tea will lose microbes when guano is added. I speculate the tea can not take high nutrient concentrations, so i suspect when you mix a microbe tea with chems the same reaction is happening.

But without a microscope we are just specualting. Perhaps a detailed test with and without could help you pin down the answers you want. Or an investment in a scope. But if your plants are happy, do you care?

If you are adding teas to restore the micro life that chems have eliminated, why not add them seperate from your chems? Let them each do the job that they do without off setting each other.......... shredder

How can you ever really seperate them? If the soil is full of chems when I add tea...whats the difference?.....Vice cersa.....would a dose of chem nutes kill ALL micro life in the soil (excluding stupid dosages, of course)? I dont think so....I wish I had Sea's scope....the plants love it. But....yeah, I care whats going on. Thats the only way to get repeatable results.

And I am trying to see if anybody else has tried this...with similar results..or not, for discussion sake. The way they are growing....I'm not changing a thing. Just trying to share.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

I assume you're aerating the tea very well, and if that is the case, then the foam you see is a chemical reaction akin to something called foam fractionation. Foam fractionation works because certain molecules, often DOC-type (dissolved organic compound) molecules, have a hydrophobic (water hating/fearing) end and a hydrophilic (water loving) end. When the bubbles pass through the water column, especially if there's a lot of contact time between the bubbles and the water column, these molecules will attach the hydrophobic end to the bubbles, where they are then taken to the surface and turn into foam.

This is also why you see foam on beaches, and why some beaches are foamier than others. It's all got to do with what's dissolved in the water.

So its nothing like the foam thats yeast produces when it grows? Its not a waste product of the microbes?

See....thats what I get for thinking.....lol...

I thought it couldnt occur without microlife in the mix.

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh, yes it absolutely can occur in absence of microbial life. Foam fractionation is also known as protein skimming and it's one of the earliest forms of chemical filtration and is still commonly used in aquaria and water treatment today. Protein skimmers work by creating a tall water column, which naturally increases contact time, at the top of which is a collection chamber, and we know they're working optimally when the result is a dark, "dry" foam that can then be discarded. That foam is what drives NO3 levels up, for one thing, and in many systems that leads to disease, eutrophication, etcetera.

That type of fractionation will only occur when there is air forced through the water column, whereas the gasses generated by microbes (yeast farts = carbonation) generally best occurs in a more physically stable environment.

Just stir the foam back in, otherwise you're removing organic compounds that I believe your plants actually want.

 

[swisscheese]

My plants seem to like anytime I make any kind of nute mix that includes lots of bubbling and molasses. The molasses seems to increase trichome production for some reason and the leaves the next day are reaching for the sky. Never worried about the foam just always mixed it back in or put a pump in there to mix everything up real good.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Oh, yes it absolutely can occur in absence of microbial life. Foam fractionation is also known as protein skimming and it's one of the earliest forms of chemical filtration and is still commonly used in aquaria and water treatment today. Protein skimmers work by creating a tall water column, which naturally increases contact time, at the top of which is a collection chamber, and we know they're working optimally when the result is a dark, "dry" foam that can then be discarded. That foam is what drives NO3 levels up, for one thing, and in many systems that leads to disease, eutrophication, etcetera.

That type of fractionation will only occur when there is air forced through the water column, whereas the gasses generated by microbes (yeast farts = carbonation) generally best occurs in a more physically stable environment.

Just stir the foam back in, otherwise you're removing organic compounds that I believe your plants actually want.

when are you gonna open a "testing facility" with that fancy new toy of yours?.....hint hint.....lol....

 

[InTheBeginning]

Foam can be an indicator of microbial life/multiplication or even of proteins released by worms/nematodes that may be in the compost. However it can just as easily be caused by a substance added to the water like molasses or saponins (sp?) (eg. Aloe). As someone mentioned one can add molasses, encounter foaming and immediately quell it by adding fish hydrolysate (the oils) Foam is not a reliable method of gauging microbial activity. I have examined ACT microscopically with lots of foam which is practically microbially absent and examined ACT with no foam which was highly active.

~ITB

 

[Seamaiden]

when are you gonna open a "testing facility" with that fancy new toy of yours?.....hint hint.....lol....

When I can walk up and down the stairs on my own and in a timely fashion again. :) I will put a bit of RE under the scope and anything else I can think of.

Get your foam on!