Drying/curing if no time to flush in the UC

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smokey_waters

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Hi,
I'm looking for ways to compensate for having to harvest early (8 full weeks on a 9 1/2 week strain). Didn't get a chance to flush. Plants were in bags in my car for a day, then hanging upside down now for the last 1 1/2 days in optimal conditions.

I started separating branches and trimming fan leaves, but not sure if I should do this since it was an early harvest. Maybe I should wait? Any insight would be appreciated. Btw, I have a 3 week timeline to get these babies ready.

Thx,
 
Legallyflying

Legallyflying

159
28
I wouldn't sweat it. I have flushed and not flushed my hydro grows and to be perfectly honest, I can not tell the difference. I remember a buddy of mine took a huge pipe hit (and jesus does this guy smoke allot of weed) and he was like "wow, really smooth, nice flush on that".

Which was kind of funny as I had harvested that lot early with no flush.

The UC nutrient levels are so low anyways. Just be sure not to dry them out to fast and you should be good to go.
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
Any tips on how to not dry em out too fast. They already seem to be drying out fast.

I have them in a tent at 70 degrees, 50RH, central air feeding in, scrubber taking air out.

Most of the fan leaves are still on, and branches are together (plants hanging upside down), but today I trimmed a few and separated a few branches.
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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people do all kinds of things in the last 2 weeks but what most people don't relise is that the plant only puts on about 6% more weight in the last phase of life and all this messing around is actualy counter productive to you plants intrest.

Maybe this will help you out,

I put the summery first,

Summary:

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest. Other growers use flushing formulas that generally consist of a few chemicals that sometimes have the ability to pull a limited amount of residues out of your plants.


Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.



The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.


Not all nutrient compounds are movable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.



Trans-location:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the trans-location process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans located through the phloem. Immobile elements can’t be trans located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root-zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Trans-location is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins; most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.



Summary:

Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or over fertilization and improper drying/curing.
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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Take at least 14 days for them to dry out so the stocks crack when you bend them. Don't worry to much about over drying that's easy to fix but you want a slow dry to make sure the chlorophyll and other plant materal can break down. If it's dry in a few days that's not good for smouth smoking. Also weed gets better if aged for a few months.
 
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hogan400

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Some ideas and thoughts...

Temps 60 for first 3-6 days then raise em to 70 for the last 2-5.

Air circ is good but not "directly" on the plants drying. It will crisp em to soon.

Slower drying will reduce the harshness of the smoke. This is important, and the only real control you personally can do at this point outside your actual trim work.

By hanging upside down with leaves intact the plant can still process some of the sugars. (Im not so sure how true this is, but a a lot of old school growers really follow this practice)

Once 75-80% dry, trim the nugs/heads off the stem and give a qaulity final trim, then fill brown grocery store bags half way only with the nugs and let them final dry to your liking.

Imo, when I used to do this extra step, it helped them hold a little more of the smell and slows the final dry down for me when I didn't have the proper trimming and drying skills or setup. I would tumble the bud very lightly in the bag twice a day to get a nice even dry. If not, the middle buds can be a touch more wet than the outside ones.

Do not give them any light. Do not put them back into any plastic bags, period! It traps moisture and can cause mold very quickly! Can also affect the end smell. If in 2-3 days they are drying a lil too quickly then drop the temps more. You want be ready in 10-14 days for a decent finish. At this point you can jar or seal-a-meal em.

Good luck. Next time finish em all the way if you can. I get a "hot" smoke if they dry to fast, and hear a light crackle when it isnt flushed completely. Believe me, you can tell.
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
Thanks guys. Those last two responses were the ones I was looking for.
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
Don't worry to much about over drying that's easy to fix but you want a slow dry to make sure the chlorophyll and other plant materal can break down.

They seem to be drying fast so I dropped temp from 70 to low 60's and raised humidity to 55. If they do over dry, what is the fix?? I heard you're screwed cuz you can't put moisture back into them.
 
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hogan400

859
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this is like the "magic smoke theory". Once you let the magic smoke out of your car or home electronics.....its no good!

like I mentioned, DROP YOUR TEMPS! high 50's, real low 60's. The very small fan you "should" be using, needs to be on low, pointed at the ground, circulate the air lightly and dont aim at your herbs.

Once you let the smell out you cant put it back in! Too dry is an easy fix, you couldnt be so lucky for that problem! Smokey, you been thru the ringer on this deal and have really cut it close. Take this little bit of advice and apply it, once the smell is lost.... that goal you set.... well... you just need to drop temps and lightly circ air! If you are still in your apt, you better keep a diligent eye out because the smell dont go away in 12 hrs either. You are simply accustomed to it. I would assume the maintenance guy noticed, and have a quick action plan like before. good vibes
 
C

critical

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They seem to be drying fast so I dropped temp from 70 to low 60's and raised humidity to 55. If they do over dry, what is the fix?? I heard you're screwed cuz you can't put moisture back into them.

your meant to put them in a cure jar with a fresh leaf if u still have any, if not i hear a lettaceleaf or orange peel or something like that works well to,just jar it all up for a day n open to burp it, n repeat for a few days, maybe a week n they will regain moisture, then if u are guna cure, take the leaf or what u used out n leave them nugs jared up for anywere from 2 weeks to 3 months your good bro
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
Here's the thing, the exhaust ducting is attached to a hanging scrubber, so the smell's been reduced a lot. If I put my nose up to the buds I can still smell- but it's not super strong.

NExt, IMPORTANT question: Stems aren't snapping, but buds seem dry. I've done what Hogan suggested and dropped to low 60's and upped humidity to 55, should I put them in an airtight container for a bit, then hang again???
 
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hogan400

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If herbs are wet and you seal them in a container then you run the risk of mold. I would still drop the temp a few degrees if you can. Slow em down is the key here. As buds dry they naturally lose their smell some. Usually the fresh green smell. you may consider brown bagging them early....
are the outside leafs crisp?
are the thicker stems still super wet?
on average how much would you say they appear to have shrunk back? are you detecting any green grass or hay smell?
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
Here's the skinny:

I had them in a bag for 1 day in my car, then they've been hanging upside down in the dark in my tent for 2 1/2 days at 70degrees, 45RH. Today (day 3) they're at 65 degrees and 55RH, and I turned the air down a bit- air's never been blowin' directly on them.

Outside leaves are crisp- I trimmed a few yesterday.
Outside buds are crisp, not crumbly though.
Thicker stems are not super wet, but they bend rather than snap
They have a bit of the grass/hay smell.
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
"We're you listening to the dude's question? You have no frame of reference. You're like a child who has wondered into the middle of a movie and wants to know... Shut the fuck up, Donny!"
 
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hogan400

859
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smokey,
Sounds like you are ready for the brown bag pretty early. Trim the nugs off of the stem and put em in bags. Fill bags half way only with herbs, 2-4 times a day, very gently tumble them with your hand so they dry out evenly.

Bags will slow releasing of moisture by creating a less breathable barrier, also aiding in trapping some smell. If you come across wet buds simply hang em alone another day or two. I like to evenly stack my bags in the middle of my room inches apart not touching each other. I would aim my fan at the ceiling on low to circulate air. The bags will help pull moisture from herbs naturally and evenly, as long as you are careful to tumble evenly and regularly. Keep temps low and honestly I wouldnt raise em. Finish cold but tumble regularly, you can get a good feel with your fingers if anything is wet. you dont want mold. if you think its too wet then it probably is. This is a bum deal you have, because you want em to dry slow, being cold can increase the chance of mold. You have to be vigilant and make sure no light hits them or the bag. I used to have to slow mine down in the desert cuz r.h was 10% in the house normally. This method worked for me very well and I was lucky to drag it to 7-8 days sometimes.... 3-4 hanging and 3-4 in a bag. Make sure when you open the bag to exchange fresh air too. open and close it a few times. If you raise your room temps its just gonna dry way to fast man! This method is tried and true for many here. some even prefer it over all else. Once cured, then jar or donate rather quickly cuz the magic smell wont stay long with this quick dry!
 
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hogan400

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btw,
Tex was kind enough to post dj shorts brown bag method from his breeding book in the harvesting and curing forums here. Read it too, its a sticky and may give you additional insight.

also be sure to close the brown bags while drying....like mom did when you'd take luch to school if you were so lucky! hahaha
 
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smokey_waters

Guest
Thx, Hogan. I read it, but i'll re-read it. 80% have not been trimmed, so should I trim the fan and inner leaves b4 brown bagging it??? Btw, I upped the RH to 60 and the temp is 65 so hopefully I can hold off for another day if I need to trim.

Also, when you say "after the cure" do you mean after paper bags or after putting them in airtight jars for a bit? I was thinking of putting them in this big-ass petco air-tight container for a week, then donating.
 
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farmseeker

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8
Ok... I will chime in a bit, but am far from an expert... First off I no longer flush and have not noticed any difference in the smoke.... Curing was a big ass problem for me in the beginning.. My first problem was losing smell.... I read all the writes ups on curing and found I was harvesting too early thats why I was losing smell... I have found that when chopped at the right time even when I forgot branches in my dry room... and they were as dry as the desert, they still had great smell... so that made me start looking at when the buds were really finished (using a microscope)... I chop branches and trim those suckers all the way before I hang.. I trim again later on, but those babies look pretty good going into the dry room... I adjust the humidity in the room to 50% and they are pretty good in a week... some faster some slower... do the squeeze test.. if they feel brittle on the outside then they are ready.... I snip those buds off into 5 gallon buckets... I open the lid in the dry room and let them air out, rotate them in the bucket... I feel those things,, you will notice they will moisten right back up.I do this for a couple of days.. then I start the paper bag thing for a day or two until they all feel evenly dried but you can still feel moisture... then they go into large sealed glass jars with hygrometers in them and keep burping those jars until the humidity goes to 60% (over 70% they can mold easily) if over 70% lay them out on tables or sheets on the ground for an hour or two each day... When they hit 65% chances for mold are less likely...As long as it doesn't go under 55% they will continue to cure.. when they hit 60% I vacuum seal them and put them in a dark closet and there they sit until needed...
 
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hogan400

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93
+1 farmseeker. I like his method and a buddy does the same, its a little more work and requires a little more attention. I wanted to keep it simple as possible.

trim it all up clean before bagging. remove all buds from stems.

I meant to say "after drying", jar or pack up how you like. You probably wont be seeking a cure as that takes weeks and sometimes months in peoples opinions..... and is when a grower believes the final product has reached maturity... I also laugh about curing, because its all a persons perspective honestly.

I liken it to an race engine carb, some like the motor a little rich, some a little lean. same with buds, some crispy, some a touch softer....and it all affects the final taste and cure.
Some people will leave the leaves on before bagging but I had having to trim it all smashed down and the buds seek to get beat to shit when I tried it.imo
 
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