Thanks, We Solidarity for this thread and everyone else for the invaluable input, my head is spinning from the what's, ifs and buts presented on this thread. I thought I was alone with my ( failures).

Here's my scenarios. First time duds happened was in my second run in beds in soil, it was exclusive to several White fire OG all but 2 were afflicted, no other strains at all were duds, I renamed this smoke hayfire, since this dilemma this strain never recovered for 3 more runs, last week I killed the remaining small weak 2 wifis I had left, roots were almost nonexistant.

In this run I reused soil for the 2nd time, I had Fungus Knats and Root Aphids, I used caps bennies, I introduced Millioms of nematodes particularily in this bed trying to help with the Aphid problem, I use excellent well water I always PH.

As stated I have run three more runs with experimental WIFI's in the mix hoping this would fix itself this WIFI plant was the only one to dud these plants branches were very woody and would break at the nodes with very little bending attempts.

My very most recent run. I ran completely new soil Ialways clean all my planters before reuse. I had the usual 2 Hayfire duds and half a plant on my White master and a Girl Scout Cookie dud. I'm extreme apprehensive about what is going on. I'm running 2 more of these GSC's and it looks like they're duds just from what I've read here on this thread and the way they look now. Also the same leaf affliction is showing an most of my girls, I hope I'm just overreacting.

That said, I have at times overwatered and due to at times to limited space have also let my girls in veg become root bound. Here's a couple pics of the WIFI (Hayfire) and pics of branches/buds off the same White Master. I'm almost distraught over this.

Here's the WIFI dud seems to have no whiteness to it and much less trichromes and feel very solid but dry out almost airy and smell like hay. Here's the White master dud bud and Frosty Bud same plant dud branches with nice frosty sideof plant in the background

We Solidarity said:

Figure 25. Healthy 'Mandalay' chrysanthemum (left) and plant infected with Fusarium oxysporumf. sp. chrysanthemi (right) which exhibits stunting without other observable symptoms. (Courtesy Penn State Univ.)


source: https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/topics/Pages/PlantDiseaseDiagnosis.aspxIt would appear we are dealing with fusarium.

Tests should be in this week to conclude if there are any other pathogens present in soil or plant tissue but at this point I'm convinced fusarium is to blame.

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Nice pix, really lookin forward to hearing results but agree with DwD now is time to figure how the fuck to knock it out.

@DWD- what of those methods are you implementing during cloning? That seems to be the only place I pick it up at all and very random at that.

Did your sour d go back to full on normal growth? I could get face off almost there but not completely same size. I got one face off in a cup that is branching normal but still not normal sized

IME as soon as the plant exhibits the dud symptoms they gotta go, no waiting around to see if they improve just cull it and hope it doesn't affect the rest of the yield. Learned the hard way to avoid growing any sour dub and Tahoe cuts or crosses.

Here's a place that tests for Fusarium. Tomato is the closest relative.

its just needs to veg out of it. clean/sterile clones, maybe a gen or two but the plant can bounce out of it if you feed it healthy enough. i think the main thing is you guys are either using the same bennies hardcore which develop overpopulations/ as well as drown out o2, we need regimens of ALTERNATING species and brands of bennies as well as cleaning methods. bugs arent the only thing that come resistant, and if you feed OG bio war every week i can see that happening, switch it up to great white, etc, any other spores, then do a diff cleaning method, circle around, dont let them build tolerance to anything

So... who here with these problems also lives near some conventional agriculture? It's kinda hard to get away from it in California, and I believe Colorado is fairly extensively farmed, so...?

I ask because of what I've been reading about glyphosate.

DowNwithDirT said:

it isnt a breeding thing or even dna/rna altering


the fact is fusarium attacks the plant by overloading if with specific homones and acids. It attacks the cell walls, essentially taking all our prized genetics and ripping them down to their main frame as a 5% thc yielding hemp plant.

It is not gentic drift
It is not TMV
And it is not permanent

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If it's Fusarium, then we can thank glyphosate for making it more present.

CHINOOK said:

I think your more likely on to something then it being tmv in all these dif gardens.but heres some bad info on tmv.
Control
Unlike fungicidal chemicals used to control fungal diseases, to date there are no efficient chemical treatments that protect plant parts from virus infection. Additionally, there are no known chemical treatments used under field conditions that eliminate viral infections from plant tissues once they do occur. Practically speaking, plants infected by viruses remain so. Thus, control of tobacco mosaic virus is primarily focused on reducing and eliminating sources of the virus and limiting the spread by insects. Tobacco mosaic virus is the most persistent plant virus known. It has been known to survive up to 50 years in dried plant parts. Therefore, sanitation is the single most important practice in controlling tobacco mosaic virus.
you can read the whole study here
its a pretty reliable source I use for general garden questions sometimes.but tmv would not be limited or worse in indoor gardens from what I have read so far.sure hope it doesn't get my train wreck babies.

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I've got an article that discusses vector prevention by using milk. So I think maybe, for right now at least, that's the best we can hope for. Fuck! It's a pdf and I can't attach it, too big? Let me see if I can find the original link.

Ha! Found it.
http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/pdi...h_tunnel_tomato_diseases_11-03-09_handout.pdf

In essence, washing hands, tools and equipment in milk will prevent transmission between plants.

I'm dead sure its fusarium. I haven't seen the test results but one of the better dispos in our county has had the lab testing done. I actually turned down a grow contract with them because it scared the shit out of me to hear what they were dealing with. They wanted to rig up the most sterile environment possible and bring in all new seed. I decided I didn't want to play russian roulette in a large scale only to realize I already had it at home as well.

Aladeen OG said:

its just needs to veg out of it. clean/sterile clones, maybe a gen or two but the plant can bounce out of it if you feed it healthy enough. i think the main thing is you guys are either using the same bennies hardcore which develop overpopulations/ as well as drown out o2, we need regimens of ALTERNATING species and brands of bennies as well as cleaning methods. bugs arent the only thing that come resistant, and if you feed OG bio war every week i can see that happening, switch it up to great white, etc, any other spores, then do a diff cleaning method, circle around, dont let them build tolerance to anything

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exactly. I've been cycling between mycorrhizae, bacterias, and marine algea all isolated.

I started getting it in coco and switch back to soil and this seem to really cut down the issue to just dud branches hear and there, I haven't grown the sour dub nor no anyone that has it, so it don't come from that , my fire OG did it super bad at first and then I was able to control it by selecting good vigor veg plants for moms and mainly taking cuts off a crop that was doing great and about to be flipped, moms wold only do good for 2to 3 rounds if cuts and then start throughing duds on it that we're really visiblely duds.

I'm running Cookie Monster that came from a close friend of mine with zero issues and I basically figured if it started to dud on me then I Forsure had a virus or something was wrong, only real symptoms I see is bad leave twisting / narling , again my first time growing any cooks at all, I have seen this leaf twisting back in the day, like early 2000 on purps , usually due to alil to much food to fast, and more plain watering between waterings.

I noticed the same with this Cookie Monster, the twisting goes away for the most part after a good watering/flush and then comes back day after feeding,
EC is at 1.9= 950 and ph at 6.2 to 6.3

MakinGoo said:

I know my True OG shows the clasic TMV on leafs in veg.. True OG I have gots TMV... I juss up my calmag & nutes & it always fixes the leaf symptoms.... my True OG alwYs comes out DANK & has NEVER duded on me..
I got 1 TMV leaf on my True OG rite now.. im using new nutes & cut out calmag so im juss trying 2 figure her out again with new nutes.. id guess if I add more base this run will b fire again with no dud action on my true og.. every run true og will spit out some funky TMV hook camouflage yellow/green leafs but wont dud

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White fire always has these leaves for me too (4 different phenos I have ran from seed). I am not sure if it is TMV. It always grows out of it.

Aladeen OG said:

i think the main thing is you guys are either using the same bennies hardcore which develop overpopulations/ as well as drown out o2, we need regimens of ALTERNATING species and brands of bennies as well as cleaning methods. bugs arent the only thing that come resistant,

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you know that's a very good point there. Not going to knock anybodies products as I use OG Biowar, but i use it only twice in the first 2 weeks of flower. The rest of the time, i brew up a compost tea from Progress Earth and i know it's got more diversity than the powdered products but it's not in a concentration that'll force competition instead of function.

i spoke with the guys at Aptus about their StartBoost product and that it only has 2 species of Bascillus vs other companies that choose to have a greater diversity of microbes and they state for our plant since it is such a short crop cycle plant that they are trying to only prevent pathogen infections and to break down salts into smaller molecules.

I still feed the Vortex brew compost tea in between each nutrient feeding and rather have a greater diversity than billions of just one guy down in the dirt.

Oh and I will take this opportunity to throw down a shameless plug. There are species in the OG BIOWAR root pack that are effective on reducing fusarium as long as it is used from the get go. It will not eliminate it completely, but it will help...especially when used at transplant (from seed), or added to cutting substrate/soak cuttings in root pack prior to plugging.



t-22. it's in there. A few other goodies too.

Chinook, I've switched A/N Tara , Pira, voodoo carbo, then humbolt muck madness, then Mykos granular , great white , now back to Tara Pira voodoo carbo which works way better than any of the other products but yes agree with switching between products,

Also noticed moms get root bound fast and then I start to see duds, I do a transplant and it pretty much goes away but I don't take cuts I chuck the bitch, but was experimenting with this

This shit poped up way b4 Cap even created his bennies......

Its not Caps bennies doing this!!!

CHINOOK said:

I was thinking larger scale than one product like this, cap a/n and orca might all buy thier bulk spores and species from the same sources.and one or more of those strains of beneficials could perhaps be tainted or worse yet modified by someone on purpose.the war on drugs aint done and I would not put it past our gov to do something crazy like that.put someone to work for one of these bulk suppliers of bennies or coco.or like I was saying before, maybe they dont even know they are causing these problems.i highly doubt its something in the water or air if its happening all over the country or world.have we isolated this to one region? Or one or 2 grow mediums? Imo it will be tough to pin down unless everyone lists every single thing they use like medium, nutes, bug sprays, bennies hell even lights.what if this is only happening under those new gavitas :eek: it could happen lol.

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I can guarantee that fusarium is not coming in any of our packs. If it is fusarium, then fusarium can be passed on in many ways. Also, fusarium is a bitch, but it can be eliminated by being extremely clean and only working resistant varieties in to your stable. That's the only way. Otherwise gonna have to just live with it. The way we turn and burn it's impossible for a plant to develop it's own resistance over time, which is what wouldl normally happen in nature.

Although I am not a well known farmer here, I have been a lurker in the shadows for quite some time.

I myself have experienced the duding once in a Bruce banner #3, given to be by an unknown source.
Unfortunately like many others I was not aware of what was going on (and was highly suspicious of russet mites or broad mites as my source had thought at one point he was battering them before I received my cut) and I never photographed my duded branches but everything was as other had described...

-small/uniformed fan leaves with no laterAl growth and very woody stems

The final product was sickening and not even worthy of a bho blasting. It was true garbage that could not even be achieved by the worst growers with a decent environment and dependable strain.

It was exciting? to see recently a whole topic/discussion popping up on the subject as I has no idea what I had experienced and assumed my bb#3 was just sick with broad mites, ect.
That was about 18-12 months ago I was dealing with this and it never spread to another plant and I have been without the banner cut for more than 10months.

At the time I was running the banner I was also dealing with a failing partnership and many other things that kept me from being able to devote my full/undivided attention to the garden and as a result a was practicing very lazy cloning techniques such as taking clones off flowering plants and revegging and not providing ample light coverage/heat for cuts, clones and mothers and as a result had poor root masses, slow veg times and extended waits for cuts to root.

6 months into a new spot and I've finally reverted all my sick and reveg plants into healthy mothers with no ill signs of the "virus"
Except one...

One mother has been struggling for almost 10weeks now to come out of a funk that isn't full dud syndrome but possibly the pre cursor to the full blown sickness that awaits...

She's never experienced duding and rather than throwing this plant in flower as I had planned, I will more than likely take a few of the healthiest cut off her and quarantine them to their own dome and tray and continue to try and bring it back.

One more thing I will be doing is introducing aspirin into my regular garden routine.

If it's a virus, Aspirin, (BAN, USAN), also known as acetylsalicylic acid
(Keyword-salicylic acid)
Will greatly aid in the ability of the plant to protect itself from harmful pathogens

aloha guys
good to see another set of heads working to figure this thing out
hopefully we can find out with certainty what the problem is soon - then we can really fight it and at worst, learn to control it.

Aladeen OG said:

its just needs to veg out of it. clean/sterile clones, maybe a gen or two but the plant can bounce out of it if you feed it healthy enough.

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I wish you were right Aladeen. But, and this is just my opinion, clean sterile clones that are cuts of cuts of cuts of cuts of cuts of an infected plant are still ticking time bombs - they will blow up. Also, if cleanliness and sterility was really the answer, the issue would not be passed down thru seed progeny. But it is. Something that is passed down from generation to generation is a matter of heredity.

nice thread Grit

stay up homies!

I have been doing some reading. If it is Fusarium, it's worse than I thought!

Fusarium is passed through seed! That means seeds are not safe anymore!

"If seed is taken from infected plants, the seed itself is usually healthy, but the seed coat often becomes contaminated by microscopic pieces of infected tissue and by spores. Many important Fusarium wilt diseases are spread in this manner. It is always prudent to treat seed with a fungicide or heat to destroy the fungus on the seed and to protect the emerging seedlings from infection."

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280100811.html

"Fungicides are not effective to control this soil borne pathogen."

http://ipm.ifas.ufl.edu/resources/success_stories/T&PGuide/pdfs/Chapter5/Fusarium.pdf

I also read that this fungi easily goes airborne! I'll find the link later.

Now we know it's passed through seed and that fungicides don't work and that it's airborne. (Eagle 20 is no longer a magic bullet) It just makes the work Im doing that much more important. It's going to take a great deal of work to preserve and restore these OG's, but I'll get it done.

what up out there I was able to get some pics of the cookie monster , really weird leaf twisting and mutating, also one pics of a twisted mutated branch, I took a few shots of the wifi mom that im sure is starting to through dud branches, its hard to tell but if you've grown wifi or an OG you no what the growth pattern is. I also found some crazy branches comming off a main branch where the branch is fowering, the stem itself is growing cylaxes off of it. Ill get those pics tonght when I finish up my clean up.

Cant tell u why the text is on the bottem but that explains the pics and its seems it repeated a bunch of pics. lol

The fire OG and wifi had very little of the leaf twisting, fire OG duded real bad when not watched closely and my wifi #8 was sum what just as bad. My #9 is the one in the pics above thats starting i think,I dont see any real signs of duding yet with the Cookie Monster but crazy amounts of leaf twist and abnormal growths. Time will tell on the dud issue with these ladies