Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

DowNwithDirT · May 24, 2014

Greyskull said:
aloha guys
good to see another set of heads working to figure this thing out
hopefully we can find out with certainty what the problem is soon - then we can really fight it and at worst, learn to control it.

I wish you were right Aladeen. But, and this is just my opinion, clean sterile clones that are cuts of cuts of cuts of cuts of cuts of an infected plant are still ticking time bombs - they will blow up. Also, if cleanliness and sterility was really the answer, the issue would not be passed down thru seed progeny. But it is. Something that is passed down from generation to generation is a matter of heredity.

nice thread Grit

stay up homies!

I've talked to a lot of people about this and many assure me that it can be grown out of it. As far as treating:

Glomus intradices
bascillus subtillis
azospirillum brasilianse
and
trichoderma

all cycled in at differnet times.......

all it takes is some google work here boys.

Fusarium and glomus intradices
fusarium and azospirillum brasilense
fusarium and bacillus subtilis
A Trial for Biological Control of a Pathogenic Fungus (Fusarium solani)
by Some Marine Microorganisms
fusarium and trichoderma

I talked with a homie today who has flowered over 1000 duds and he had the problem over 2 yrs ago. He said he cleaned shit up and threw away any and all cuts that showed symptoms.....new moms every 3-4 months....
Said that the problem almost always reared its head when clones went from cube to cup or cup to 1 gal.

They also had a much better time restoring the plants in their greenhouse and noted that it was harder to get a sizeable dud to come back but rather starting from fresh cuts and growing them out under the sun.

grower4life · May 24, 2014

DOwnwitdirt so the prob seamed to be way lease when they stopped stepping up pot sizes correct?
interesting cause I for the first time in years went from 1.5 cube rite to 5 gall and they have awesome structure compared to stepping up pot size, I step up pot size to cut veg time in 5 galls and beds but said fuk it lets see what happens and again the structure is way better looking, thank u for your info.

Greyskull · May 25, 2014

DowNwithDirT said:
I've talked to a lot of people about this and many assure me that it can be grown out of it.

Your folks have gotten a positive ID for fusarium?
That would be great if so.

We Solidarity · May 25, 2014

Aladeen OG said:
its just needs to veg out of it. clean/sterile clones, maybe a gen or two but the plant can bounce out of it if you feed it healthy enough. i think the main thing is you guys are either using the same bennies hardcore which develop overpopulations/ as well as drown out o2, we need regimens of ALTERNATING species and brands of bennies as well as cleaning methods. bugs arent the only thing that come resistant, and if you feed OG bio war every week i can see that happening, switch it up to great white, etc, any other spores, then do a diff cleaning method, circle around, dont let them build tolerance to anything

this problem's been around for way longer than I've been using tea (I've seen it in over 20 grows, from hydro to soil, big plants, little plants, organic, synthetic, open hoods, closed hoods, different light techs, etc) and honestly I was never able to keep the duds green (always started losing fan leaves) until I started using biowar. Even duds grow two inches overnight with a tea foliar and with 30-40% of my media being perlite I'd be suprised if there is any oxygen deprivation in the roots (unless they're overwatered, which only happens on occasion when they are up-potted and the roots are surrounded by wet media).

I've never switched up my bennies for the same reason I don't switch up my nutes (except the strength of the feed). Plants rely on a chemical relationship with the media, and as long as the chemistry of the media is staying consistent and not fluctuating the plant's chemistry will also stay consistent and productive. Everything's gotten better since I stopped jumping everywhere and feeding different things at different times. If there are four organisms in root pack that affect fusarium I'm not going to try to rotate through products that don't even have those organisms in them, I'm going to use the fuck out of the root pack and pretty much only the root pack to ensure that I have huge populations of all those bacteria/fungi.

nightmarecreature · May 25, 2014

This is going to get interesting if the tests come back Negative. If it comes out positive, please post the lab results.

Aladeen OG · May 25, 2014

nightmarecreature said:
This is going to get interesting if the tests come back Negative. If it comes out positive, please post the lab results.

Anybody read this thread? Lol just givin ya a hard time!

Yes he said he had it and it was tested POSITIVE like two pages ago

DowNwithDirT said:
From some locals in our area........

I sent a sample to the lab as well and tested positive for fusarium oxysporum. Yields had dropped 50% and it took me a couple years to figure out exactly what was causing this. Rarely have I had plants wilt, but the pathogen creates symptoms that resemble nitrogen toxicity with leaf curl, and magnesium deficiency with purple stems and odd looking growth. Fan leaves get small and more narrow, especially once more pk is added in flower. We are constantly cleaning everything with Physan 20, drenches with subdue maxx/heritage, using the root and foilar pack from Og Bio War, and this pathogen doesn't seem to go away. RH has to be 60%+ or plants will not perform at all. Touring many grows in Colorado I see all the signs of it. Feel that it will be a huge issue soon for many people. I can track the fusarium back to some cuts and feel it took 6-8 months before it started effecting me. Two years later and it's becoming difficult to produce a pound a light. When I start new genetics they perform 1-2 rounds and then become sick. Now I just need to figure out how to co-exist with it because it's at multiple locations and we take lots of precautions to avoid cross contamination.

I've only had a few plants wilt in a few years. Major signs are around week 3, once PK starts to be increased. That added stress makes the plant look unhealthy with deficiencies and yellowing. Also get the pink stems like P or mag deficiency. If you ever see a plant where all the leaves are small and same size throughout the plant is a sign. When you harvest look at crown, you'll see the pathogen entering the plant through the root system and into the plant leaving a brown ring.

DowNwithDirT · May 25, 2014

Greyskull said:
Your folks have gotten a positive ID for fusarium?
That would be great if so.

Correct....

it has been tested positive for fusarium oxysporum.

nightmarecreature said:
This is going to get interesting if the tests come back Negative. If it comes out positive, please post the lab results.

I don't have them in hand.....but yet again I will copy and repaste this.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...ts-worse-here-everyday-fusarium-solani.51997/

and from the homie nug life who operates a dispo in our are and right next to where I work.

I sent a sample to the lab as well and tested positive for fusarium oxysporum. Yields had dropped 50% and it took me a couple years to figure out exactly what was causing this. Rarely have I had plants wilt, but the pathogen creates symptoms that resemble nitrogen toxicity with leaf curl, and magnesium deficiency with purple stems and odd looking growth. Fan leaves get small and more narrow, especially once more pk is added in flower. We are constantly cleaning everything with Physan 20, drenches with subdue maxx/heritage, using the root and foilar pack from Og Bio War, and this pathogen doesn't seem to go away. RH has to be 60%+ or plants will not perform at all. Touring many grows in Colorado I see all the signs of it. Feel that it will be a huge issue soon for many people. I can track the fusarium back to some cuts and feel it took 6-8 months before it started effecting me. Two years later and it's becoming difficult to produce a pound a light. When I start new genetics they perform 1-2 rounds and then become sick. Now I just need to figure out how to co-exist with it because it's at multiple locations and we take lots of precautions to avoid cross contamination.

@We Solidarity knows these people too as many in this industry do.

nightmarecreature · May 25, 2014

Aladeen OG said:
Anybody read this thread? Lol just givin ya a hard time!

Yes he said he had it and it was tested POSITIVE like two pages ago

I was referring to another person. If this other person tests positive too, then it might be the issue.

Im not really interested in the wilting, that is fusarium.

I'm interested in the duding, leaf twisting and mosiac patterns that some of these strains display. That problem might not be fusarium.

Yes, actually lab results would be dandy!

Seamaiden · May 25, 2014

I have a cut that looks different from all the others. If I photographed it closely, do any of you folks think you might be able to tell if there's something up with it?

Also, I've been scanning many of the posts, so forgive me if I've missed it--has anyone had duds outside, under the sun? My root aphid plants never did well, but they did make trichomes and smoke fairly ok, they just never really produced due to all that stress, and subsequent cuttings never rooted so I lost all those ladies.

nightmarecreature said:
I have been doing some reading. If it is Fusarium, it's worse than I thought!

Fusarium is passed through seed! That means seeds are not safe anymore!

"If seed is taken from infected plants, the seed itself is usually healthy, but the seed coat often becomes contaminated by microscopic pieces of infected tissue and by spores. Many important Fusarium wilt diseases are spread in this manner. It is always prudent to treat seed with a fungicide or heat to destroy the fungus on the seed and to protect the emerging seedlings from infection."

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280100811.html

"Fungicides are not effective to control this soil borne pathogen."

http://ipm.ifas.ufl.edu/resources/success_stories/T&PGuide/pdfs/Chapter5/Fusarium.pdf

I also read that this fungi easily goes airborne! I'll find the link later.

Now we know it's passed through seed and that fungicides don't work and that it's airborne. (Eagle 20 is no longer a magic bullet) It just makes the work Im doing that much more important. It's going to take a great deal of work to preserve and restore these OG's, but I'll get it done.

But the seeds can be sterilized using H2O2, rubbing alcohol, bleach, or hell, maybe even milk could work, right? I mean, if I'm reading this right then it's not like viruses that are actually embedded in the embryo, it's on the seed coat/hull/husk, and that implies to me that it might be killed.

The fungus produces two kinds of spores. Chlamydospores are resistant to drying and adverse conditions, and enable the fungus to survive extended periods in soil. Conidia are produced in a sporodochium, which is a mass of conidiophores (conidia-bearing stalks) placed tightly together. Sporodochia are sometimes visible as small, pink-to-orange cushions on dead tissue as well as along hyphae. Conidia are spread by splashing water and can contaminate tools and hands. There are two types of conidia: macroconidia (large, multi-celled spores) and microconidia (small, one-celled spores). Conidia generally are not airborne, but the fungus can become airborne in bits of infected plant debris, in dust, or in splashing water.

This is the same kind of vector control necessary to prevent spread of Septoria. You do have to change how you do things, I found the easiest was to use saucers or any other kind of water-holding container to set the plants in, then water that. Of course, I'm not sure how that could be addressed in other systems, like DWC or hydro, or UC buckets.

Fusarium wilts are favored by high air and soil temperatures (75° to 86°F) and disease may not occur at low soil temperatures (below 68°F). An infected plant may remain symptomless at lower temperatures. The fungus can be spread through the use of infected cuttings or other forms of vegetative propagation taken from healthy appearing but infected plants.

Again, it looks like this is more easily controlled in some scenarios than others.

Liming soils and using nitrate nitrogen fertilizer have been effective for management of Fusarium oxysporum on chrysanthemum, aster, gladiolus, cucumber, tomato, and watermelon.

?? pH and NO3 management, hints at management/husbandry practices, no?

nightmarecreature said:
(Eagle 20 is no longer a magic bullet)

E20 was never a magic bullet. A few years ago I started a thread on the issue of resistance due to E20.

nightmarecreature · May 25, 2014

Correct. It's on the seed hull and can be treated. How many of us treat our seeds from breeders everytime? I'm guessing zero.

Wilt is usually Fusarium or Pythium.

I used Ogbiowar on my cuts, everytime from the start of roots and still had some duds weeks later. If it was Fusarium, the bennies would have atleast suppressed it.

The duding looks like another issue. This is difficult to figure out because the symptoms are many.

Seamaiden · May 25, 2014

We haven't been treating our seeds, but given this, it would be an easy enough precaution to take. :) I'm glad you posted that stuff.

Is it duding, or dudding? Duding kinda means something different to me and it involves a hat.

true grit · May 25, 2014

Greyskull said:
aloha guys
good to see another set of heads working to figure this thing out
hopefully we can find out with certainty what the problem is soon - then we can really fight it and at worst, learn to control it.

I wish you were right Aladeen. But, and this is just my opinion, clean sterile clones that are cuts of cuts of cuts of cuts of cuts of an infected plant are still ticking time bombs - they will blow up. Also, if cleanliness and sterility was really the answer, the issue would not be passed down thru seed progeny. But it is. Something that is passed down from generation to generation is a matter of heredity.

nice thread Grit

stay up homies!

Aloha! Hey great to see ya around bud! Hopefully we can get this figured out a little more. I culled the recent veg duds from clone, so hopefully they takes the issue away again like last time. I also think running a heavier soil mix vs normal 50/50 peat/soil mix left too much extra water and may have added to the issue off the bat with the few clones.

grower4life said:
View attachment 408169 View attachment 408170 View attachment 408171 View attachment 408174 View attachment 408176 View attachment 408177 View attachment 408180 View attachment 408184 what up out there I was able to get some pics of the cookie monster , really weird leaf twisting and mutating, also one pics of a twisted mutated branch, I took a few shots of the wifi mom that im sure is starting to through dud branches, its hard to tell but if you've grown wifi or an OG you no what the growth pattern is. I also found some crazy branches comming off a main branch where the branch is fowering, the stem itself is growing cylaxes off of it. Ill get those pics tonght when I finish up my clean up.

Again those don't really look like the duds we are talking about. The I don't see any twisting, weird leaf growth etc associated with the duds I'm referring too. Either mini plants in veg, or just plain normal looking branches with dud buds in flower.

DowNwithDirT said:
I've talked to a lot of people about this and many assure me that it can be grown out of it. As far as treating:

Glomus intradices
bascillus subtillis
azospirillum brasilianse
and
trichoderma

all cycled in at differnet times.......

all it takes is some google work here boys.

Fusarium and glomus intradices
fusarium and azospirillum brasilense
fusarium and bacillus subtilis
A Trial for Biological Control of a Pathogenic Fungus (Fusarium solani)
by Some Marine Microorganisms
fusarium and trichoderma

I talked with a homie today who has flowered over 1000 duds and he had the problem over 2 yrs ago. He said he cleaned shit up and threw away any and all cuts that showed symptoms.....new moms every 3-4 months....
Said that the problem almost always reared its head when clones went from cube to cup or cup to 1 gal.

They also had a much better time restoring the plants in their greenhouse and noted that it was harder to get a sizeable dud to come back but rather starting from fresh cuts and growing them out under the sun.

So you yourself haven't actually grown duds out of their dud condition?

DowNwithDirT said:
Correct....

it has been tested positive for fusarium oxysporum.

I don't have them in hand.....but yet again I will copy and repaste this.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...ts-worse-here-everyday-fusarium-solani.51997/

and from the homie nug life who operates a dispo in our are and right next to where I work.

I sent a sample to the lab as well and tested positive for fusarium oxysporum. Yields had dropped 50% and it took me a couple years to figure out exactly what was causing this. Rarely have I had plants wilt, but the pathogen creates symptoms that resemble nitrogen toxicity with leaf curl, and magnesium deficiency with purple stems and odd looking growth. Fan leaves get small and more narrow, especially once more pk is added in flower. We are constantly cleaning everything with Physan 20, drenches with subdue maxx/heritage, using the root and foilar pack from Og Bio War, and this pathogen doesn't seem to go away. RH has to be 60%+ or plants will not perform at all. Touring many grows in Colorado I see all the signs of it. Feel that it will be a huge issue soon for many people. I can track the fusarium back to some cuts and feel it took 6-8 months before it started effecting me. Two years later and it's becoming difficult to produce a pound a light. When I start new genetics they perform 1-2 rounds and then become sick. Now I just need to figure out how to co-exist with it because it's at multiple locations and we take lots of precautions to avoid cross contamination.

@We Solidarity knows these people too as many in this industry do.

Again, Ill wait for others test results as I had none of those problems in my full on duds in flowers. None of the twisting, leaf mutation, toxicity, yada yada. Yield didn't drop per say- it was just worthless. If you count the loss due to duds then sure maybe thats the loss, but not in physical size. Fan leaf size did not change in flower either and there was no PK added....doesn't sound like what I've dealt with at all. And I've definitely had dud branches and dud plants much like delae posted. Besides the mini plants in veg- are all those symptoms what you are experiencing? Or are they like Delaes pix- full on buds with fucked/lack of trich and no smell?

DowNwithDirT · May 25, 2014

true grit said:
So you yourself haven't actually grown duds out of their dud condition?

Again, Ill wait for others test results as I had none of those problems in my full on duds in flowers. None of the twisting, leaf mutation, toxicity, yada yada. Yield didn't drop per say- it was just worthless. If you count the loss due to duds then sure maybe thats the loss, but not in physical size. Fan leaf size did not change in flower either and there was no PK added....doesn't sound like what I've dealt with at all. And I've definitely had dud branches and dud plants much like delae posted. Besides the mini plants in veg- are all those symptoms what you are experiencing? Or are they like Delaes pix- full on buds with fucked/lack of trich and no smell?

they admittedly had an excessive problem on a larger scale than any of us.

I have successfully gotten my sour and 2 og's to grow back from full on dud.

baba G · May 25, 2014

grower4life said:
View attachment 408169 View attachment 408170 View attachment 408171 View attachment 408174 View attachment 408176 View attachment 408177 View attachment 408180 View attachment 408184 what up out there I was able to get some pics of the cookie monster , really weird leaf twisting and mutating, also one pics of a twisted mutated branch, I took a few shots of the wifi mom that im sure is starting to through dud branches, its hard to tell but if you've grown wifi or an OG you no what the growth pattern is. I also found some crazy branches comming off a main branch where the branch is fowering, the stem itself is growing cylaxes off of it. Ill get those pics tonght when I finish up my clean up.

check your pH IMO, and what's your RH? The purple in the cookies will leaf twist with a high pH watering.

jessejames12345 · May 25, 2014

this thread has got me double checking all my clones and cleaning the hell out of my tent . If it is this fungus , then it CAN definitely spread . ?
Some how I was more comfortable thinking it was 'genetic drift' :facepalm:

Greyskull · May 25, 2014

DowNwithDirT said:
Correct....

it has been tested positive for fusarium oxysporum.

I don't have them in hand.....but yet again I will copy and repaste this.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...ts-worse-here-everyday-fusarium-solani.51997/

thank you for posting this link
or reposting as i missed it... theres a lot of shit to go thru on each page on the display hahaha

this post made the goose egg chase worth while, to me. Maybe its identifying/detailing where and how to get the tests done.

inuyasha said:
i had my testing done at my local agricultural extension office. not sure that this is necessarily an option for everyone since, technically, extension office labs aren't supposed to test cannabis (due to USDA federal funding guidelines), but i figured it was worth a try and submitted a plant labeled as tomato and it worked out fine. you will need to take in (or maybe you could overnight mail it) a plant sample consisting of the roots and the base of the crown (the very bottom of the stem/trunk) so you will have to kill a plant to get the sample. just ask them for a "plant diagnostic analysis" with a "fungal/bacterial culture" -- it costs about $20 and they will call you with the results after a couple days. if the extension office is not an option or there isn't one close by, any lab with plant/water/soil diagnostics should do, just look for one nearby (or make sure you can overnight to them) since they will need a fairly fresh sample.

-inuyasha

I am sooooooo over reading right now...
good information to take in but man.... after I post this its fucking porn time

Capulator · May 25, 2014

someone with duds should throw some pollen on a dud and grow out the progeny to see what happens.

DowNwithDirT · May 25, 2014

Capulator said:
someone with duds should throw some pollen on a dud and grow out the progeny to see what happens.

I've had duds well before ever making any seed and some of the cuts I have used dudded a yr later now. I personally just grew 16 of my beans out with not a lick of a dud in sight......

even if it were say passed through seed hull or etc....the new strain vigor should give it more than a fighting chance. I don't see this being an issue with seeds etc or I would have heard at least one report back by now about it.

MonsterMash · May 25, 2014

Sick branch Healthy branch
Off the same plant
Healthy one side and duded branch on opposite side...

Can a mod fix my pictures or someone tell me how to upload without inverting?

ssteely71 · May 25, 2014

Seamaiden said:
We haven't been treating our seeds, but given this, it would be an easy enough precaution to take. :) I'm glad you posted that stuff.

Is it duding, or dudding? Duding kinda means something different to me and it involves a hat.

In light of this issue it seems to me that the practice of soaking all your seeds together in a cup of water to start germination is a bad idea. If the fusarium is on the hull or shell of a particular seed the water soak could just spread it to them all.

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

DowNwithDirT

grower4life

Greyskull

We Solidarity

nightmarecreature

Aladeen OG

DowNwithDirT

nightmarecreature

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

nightmarecreature

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

true grit

DowNwithDirT

baba G

bean sprouts are tasty

jessejames12345

Greyskull

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

DowNwithDirT

MonsterMash

ssteely71

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

DowNwithDirT

grower4life

Greyskull

We Solidarity

nightmarecreature

Aladeen OG

DowNwithDirT

nightmarecreature

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

nightmarecreature

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

true grit

DowNwithDirT

baba G

bean sprouts are tasty

jessejames12345

Greyskull

Capulator

likes to smell trees.

DowNwithDirT

MonsterMash

ssteely71

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