DutchLog02 - Growing with AI (72x SeriousKush SoG, Coco DtW HFF 1400W)

[Dr.Dutch]

by stable diffusion

Oh, brave new world, where nature meets machine,
Where AI and plants will dance in between,
A world where growth and progress meet,
Where technology and life will surely greet.

Plants, with their roots deep in the soil,
Will still stretch towards the sky with their toil,
Their green leaves reaching for the sun,
Unknowing of the new future that’s begun.

AI, with its power to analyze and learn,
Will help us understand plants’ every turn,
Their needs and wants, their growth and health,
Aiding us in the quest for abundant wealth.

Through sensors, machines, and data so vast,
We’ll watch our plants grow, from first to last,
AI will guide us to the perfect yield,
As nature and technology become unsealed.

Oh, brave new world, where plants and AI unite,
A future so bright, it’s a beautiful sight,
As we grow our plants, and they grow us,
A new world blossoms, without any fuss.
by ChatGPT



So folks, this time we're starting from scratch. The last run can be found here (the problem SoG), and some topics will be continued there, which I will refer to here, and it can also be used for discussions.

Quick warning: Texts from ChatGPT may contain errors from time to time. The program is used as a tool to train how to deal with it. I will point out when the texts have not been checked by me with other sources and may contain errors in detail. Currently, it is mainly used to expand previously known fields, so prior knowledge is available and should avoid major errors. However, like the AI, I am not error-free, so always take the information here with a grain of salt if I do not cite any other sources.

The diary serves as a log and inspiration for others on how the future with new technology will develop.
So, welcome to the nerd zone
​

Clones Day -10​

Most of the clones were cut 7 days ago and stored in the refrigerator. The last nutrient solution from the tank was used, 3L + 300mg of ColonizeAG and 150mg of BioPak, cubes soaked for an hour and drained (without squeezing as stated in the instructions, it worked without it in the last run with 100% rooting).

Thin layer of perlite in the propagators (didn't like the root development without it, too thick water roots) and distributed the cubes, everything into the tent and prepared the rest.

About three hours later...

First, 24 hours with low light

For the foliar application, we are using this mixture. I was a bit lazy, it could have a higher EC with more amino acids, but a mixture with the stuff from the tank was quicker. Just add some AminoPowerPlus and Tween20. Biopak was sprayed once to also promote colonization of the bennis on the upper parts of the plants. The nutrient solution will now be sprayed every 24 hours.

The left large propagator contains the fresh clones, the other three contain the ones from the fridge. Fresh ones look better after one day, the others are hanging a bit more.

After 24 hours and the first spray, the light was turned off for 4 hours, then sprayed again after 20 hours.
The hanging plants have recovered a bit.

And now let's give them a bit more power, white off and red on. 18 hours for day three. Day four was increased to 20 hours again.

Looks good, almost all of them have recovered and they are handling the high amount of light well.
We're following "Bugbee's method" here, who reported good results with high light doses for cuttings in a video. This was confirmed in my previous experiments, which all resulted in 100% rooting.

 

[Zen_Seeker]

Interesting. Might have to .

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

Very nice, keep the posts coming Dutch. How much does the plastic tray take away from the PPFD?

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Very nice, keep the posts coming Dutch. How much does the plastic tray take away from the PPFD?

Definitely
And a good question, I will investigate that when I repot them in a few days. It's especially interesting for this setup now.



Correction to above: During the measurement with red+blue light, white light was also on. Already wondered about the high readings and the high temperature in the tent the next day. This was then corrected.

Two days ago, the lamps were lowered further as they were quite far away at about 70cm. The distance to the large propagator lids was 55cm. Temperature sensors in the propagators were also installed. The tent is currently at 25.8°C and the cubes are ~1°C lower.

Yesterday, they were lowered a few more centimeters. The large ones are currently getting a bit more light as well. The lamps hang slightly diagonally to get more light in the center. As with many things here, this will be changed again eventually so that the clones do not have to be grown in the large tent and the light can be used better.

The clones from the refrigerator didn't looked as good as the fresh ones, otherwise i had increased the light earlier.
You could still see it a little bit yesterday i would say.

But today all looked fine i would say.

The light has been increased from 20 to 22 hours yesterday, and today the white light was turned on again and the air vents have now been opened full.
DLI at 22h: 41.9 and 29.4

For cleaning/preparation: The pots from the last run have already been cleaned. I actually wanted to order new Tekus, but they are currently only available for 2€/piece at the hydro store (1€ on eBay, but only 5 pieces available at the moment). So I filled everything into the other pots once. Then I roughly rinsed the pots with the shower hose and let them soak overnight in the 40L tub with 1.5L of 2.8% sodium hypochlorite cleaner. The chlorine cleaner is superior to H2O2. I had already noticed this several times with the pumps, and the trays of the cubes were completely clean without any further mechanical cleaning. Algae residues had completely dissolved, for which hydrogen peroxide had absolutely no effect before. The only disadvantage is that deposits form, which can stick quite stubbornly to the parts. Citric acid helps with this, as I had tested with a pump here.

Roots looked all good (from the last run, at least one good-looking thing^^)

Teku tower

The mentioned pump, as i said a few hours in water with citric acid and completely clean

So, and here a short part from GPT. Too much pictures for one post, so take this just as a preview and i'll close this with a "To be continued"

Sodium hypochlorite is a strong oxidizing agent and is effective at breaking down and reacting with organic materials through oxidation. In comparison, hydrogen peroxide is a relatively weaker oxidizing agent and has a more limited range of compounds it can oxidize.

When it comes to descaling, sodium hypochlorite is particularly effective due to its ability to dissolve mineral deposits by oxidizing them and breaking them down into smaller, more soluble compounds. It is even stronger than citric acid and hydrogen peroxide, which are also used for descaling but are less effective at breaking down mineral deposits.

Safe surfactants that can be used with sodium hypochlorite include sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS), alkyl benzene sulfonate (ABS), alkyl sulfates, and polysorbate 20 (Tween 20). These surfactants help to reduce surface tension and create a foaming solution to enhance the cleaning ability of sodium hypochlorite.

Substances that are not safe to use with sodium hypochlorite include acids and ammonia-based cleaners, which can produce toxic chlorine gas when mixed with sodium hypochlorite. It is important to avoid mixing different cleaning agents unless directed to do so by the manufacturer and to use proper protective equipment when handling sodium hypochlorite.

 

[ReservoirDog]

Oh captain, my captain.

I'm here. Great work!

 

[ReservoirDog]

IF people are interested in adjusting the PPFD for individual plants under cloche, I use a piece of typical window screen (by eyeball looks 3-4mm, black nylon, plastic) and it cuts 200 ppfd, measured with light 0.66-1.00 meters away. Have never measured outside those parameters, sorry. I read a comment above related to this and happened to have this piece of trivia in stock.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

IF people are interested in adjusting the PPFD for individual plants under cloche, I use a piece of typical window screen (by eyeball looks 3-4mm, black nylon, plastic) and it cuts 200 ppfd, measured with light 0.66-1.00 meters away. Have never measured outside those parameters, sorry. I read a comment above related to this and happened to have this piece of trivia in stock.

For comparison, I'll just mount the sensor somewhere elevated so I can put the lids over it. Then a measurement without and one with and we should be able to see well how much difference there is with the two propagator types


Continuation Sodium Hypochlorite from GPT
First of all, a summary from GPT in the control chat. In theory, it explains why sodium hypochlorite has been so effective against algae and organic debris, including calcium deposits.
There is also a small error in the spoiler, which has been corrected here: Directly against calcium carbonate acids are stronger, but for deposits that also contain organic matter, it probably works better, which also explains the good cleaning of the pots

Sodium hypochlorite is a strong oxidizing agent that reacts with organic materials through oxidation. Hydrogen peroxide is a weaker oxidizing agent with a more limited range of compounds it can oxidize.

Sodium hypochlorite is highly effective for descaling as it can dissolve mineral deposits by breaking them down into smaller, more soluble compounds. It is even stronger than citric acid and hydrogen peroxide, which are also used for descaling but less effective at breaking down mineral deposits.

Safe surfactants that can be used with sodium hypochlorite include sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS), alkyl benzene sulfonate (ABS), alkyl sulfates, and polysorbate 20 (Tween 20). These surfactants reduce surface tension and create a foaming solution that enhances the cleaning ability of sodium hypochlorite.

Substances that are not safe to use with sodium hypochlorite include acids and ammonia-based cleaners. Mixing these cleaners with sodium hypochlorite can produce toxic chlorine gas. Always follow the manufacturer's instructions and use proper protective equipment when handling sodium hypochlorite.

Here in the spoiler is the long chat (replies). After that the more important part: I checked the summary of the long chat again with GPT. Following that, a more detailed explanation of the chemical reactions to verify the details. If everything is correct, the reactions of the mineral acids are definitely correct, and the rest sounds good too. In my experience, the program is very reliable for such simple chemical questions. Regarding the application, a tip: always ask critical questions and check if everything makes logical sense and let the AI check itself in a new chat.

Spoiler: Chat answers

I let GPT produce multiple summery, here you can see a wrong one, where she tried to answer my question based on the chat, and due to that got a logical mistake there.

Control of another summary answer

And here the chemical stuff

 

[ReservoirDog]

I love your Secret Jardin tent. I should have bought one when I lived in NL, very expensive to order here in Canada.

Ask Chatty how lactus bacillus works to kill the smell so effectively whenever the dog farts.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

It's a Homebox, not a Secret Jardin - but thank you And I would recommend cats, they fart less

Clones Day -2

Looks like we can stick to our plan, first roots are visible from the side in all four propagators, and I think we can transplant them on day 0.

​

Substrate is prepared. Again on 70/30 approximately, two buckets to 11l filled with perlite on a bag of Canna Coco. Three layers of Coco filled with two layers of perlite in the tub, mixed well, and then filled evenly into two bags (10 scoops left, 10 right, again 10left, etc.) In between mixed again and again in the tub.
In this way, a very even distribution should be achieved in the bags and in the end in the pots.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

So, the test buckets are filled again. B1 control, B2 with 40ppm Glycine, B3 also Glycine and 100ppm Tween20.
And in the tank at the end also Tween20, so that we also have a control for B3.
With my diluted Tween20, I also noticed something in the bottle today that looks like mold. Something insoluble is definitely floating in the bottle.
Tween20 was filled for this reason now undiluted in a dosing bottle and will be diluted a little bit directly before use.

@N1ghtL1ght @gernotreinhardsen After the study and the info I will just try it with less calcium. I am now actually also in the values from Kushi for all related ratios.
BtW: Big shout out and credit to @KushMuss - The calculator exists only because of him

Left the new tween bottle

 

[Dr.Dutch]

No, can't find anything beside the bro-science sides that says we have to use more calcium with coco.
Only under certain circumstances it can be sometimes necessary, but if it is well buffered and constantly supplied with nutrients, I see with the source situation no reason to give more calcium all the time.

• If re-using washed coco or if your coco has dried out entirely and no nutrients have been fed to your plant for some time, you will need to buffer your coco once more with a calcium & magnesium supplement before feeding your nutrient solution again.
• After a heavy flush of your pots, buffer your coco again with a calcium and magnesium supplement.

Plant Training

Hydroponics Online - Complete Growing packages, LED Grow Lights, Hydroponic Equipment, Hydroponic grow supplies, Propagation Starter Kits, Hydroponic Nutrients, Grow Packs, Grow rooms, Grow pots, Ventilation systems and more all available in our Hydroponic supplies shop in Melbourne, Australia

agradehydroponics.com

Frontiers | Comparison of Coconut Coir, Rockwool, and Peat Cultivations for Tomato Production: Nutrient Balance, Plant Growth and Fruit Quality

Rockwool (RC) and peat are two common substrates used worldwide in horticultural crop production. In recent years environmental and ecological concerns raise...

www.frontiersin.org

and @N1ghtL1ght I'll use you as a source, too. Will not read all the studies from your link now, if you are of the same opinion as me

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Root riot has started^^

And I found a little visitor under the plants..

And rescued it (a Eratigena atrica I think)

Plants still look good. They could be a little greener, next time the solution for spraying will be made again at EC 2.0, around 1.0 is a little bit too low I would say.

 

[Zen_Seeker]

You can skip the spider pics.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Ok, next time i'll post a cat pic


Day Zero Update

We will stretch the day a bit, today is actually day +1, but i still have some stuff to do.
Yesterday the red lights were switched off and also blue over the right propagators and today blue on the right, too, so that we have only the white light on.

Root riot in 3 propagators. Only the left one with the fresh clones doesn't show such a good rooting, but it's ok for ten days.

New test solution with kelp was prepared. Need it anyway for watering all the pots.

All tanks and buckets full again

More information about the tests in the next update, just a quick one now to drop the vids.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

So, let's talk about the new test values. The "liquid" kelp is added to the tank before calcium, following the instructions on the bottle. Waterglass -> pH lowering -> Kelp. The bottle also indicates that it must be completely dissolved in the tank under constant stirring. Glycine(40ppm) and Tween20(100ppm) were also added.

So currently:
B1 Control
T6 +Tween20
B2 +Glycine
B3 +Tween20 & Glycine
T9 +Tween20, Glycine & Kelp

For T6 and B1 to B3, we can already see some initial results: B2: Glycine behaves the same with or without MOs, and after 48 hours, the pH and EC increase. In T6, the result from the last test is confirmed in the large tank: Tween20 lowers the pH after 48 hours. And B3 is very interesting now. I had already thought that it might be useful to combine these factors, and the value of B3 is almost identical to the control. The EC is unchanged, and in B2, there is a significant increase, and the pH is much higher at 6.9 than in B1 and B3.

The nutrients will be based on Bugbee's values now. Fe-EDTA has been completely kicked out, and another fertilizer will be needed for less S (Haka sucks kind of). K is correctly lower due to the potassium content in coco.
Magnesium has been set higher because my SK4 requires a higher doses. I also see magnesium deficiency in the clones again..

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cpl_nutrients

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

No, can't find anything beside the bro-science sides that says we have to use more calcium with coco.
Only under certain circumstances it can be sometimes necessary, but if it is well buffered and constantly supplied with nutrients, I see with the source situation no reason to give more calcium all the time.

Plant Training

Hydroponics Online - Complete Growing packages, LED Grow Lights, Hydroponic Equipment, Hydroponic grow supplies, Propagation Starter Kits, Hydroponic Nutrients, Grow Packs, Grow rooms, Grow pots, Ventilation systems and more all available in our Hydroponic supplies shop in Melbourne, Australia

agradehydroponics.com

Frontiers | Comparison of Coconut Coir, Rockwool, and Peat Cultivations for Tomato Production: Nutrient Balance, Plant Growth and Fruit Quality

Rockwool (RC) and peat are two common substrates used worldwide in horticultural crop production. In recent years environmental and ecological concerns raise...

www.frontiersin.org

and @N1ghtL1ght I'll use you as a source, too. Will not read all the studies from your link now, if you are of the same opinion as me

Let me just add this little table here:

my apologies, it's in german, but the numbers do show the difference between unwashed, washed, and buffered cocos considering some of the important remnants of N, P, K, Mg, B, Na & Cl.
Raw cocos is nothing but useably for plants, from own experience I can tell I've had even double that salt content. Cannabis seeds sprouting was 0/10 therein.
Cleansed with freshwater is already good (it does most likely contain already a considerable amount of dissolved Ca++ etc)
The buffering with CalNit scores best, and is much better to remove excess Na & Cl. Though both buffering methods work as the increased K & Mg can counter the high Na (135).
Just the high amount of Chloride is not good, though at 149 is already below the tolerance of (194ppm - measured in a steady supply scenario of outdoor hemp)

Waterglass

^ that's Potassium Silicate

 

[Dr.Dutch]

my apologies, it's in german, but the numbers do show the difference between unwashed, washed, and buffered cocos considering some of the important remnants of N, P, K, Mg, B, Na & Cl.
Raw cocos is nothing but useably for plants, from own experience I can tell I've had even double that salt content. Cannabis seeds sprouting was 0/10 therein.
Cleansed with freshwater is already good (it does most likely contain already a considerable amount of dissolved Ca++ etc)
The buffering with CalNit scores best, and is much better to remove excess Na & Cl. Though both buffering methods work as the increased K & Mg can counter the high Na (135).
Just the high amount of Chloride is not good, though at 149 is already below the tolerance of (194ppm - measured in a steady supply scenario of outdoor hemp)

Yes, for our plant I would also always recommend high quality coco. E.g. Canna Professional is recommended again and again.
That in the washed and buffered coco significant amounts of K are contained, you see again.
In the previously posted study is also such an analysis to find.

that's Potassium Silicate

Somehow. If you ask bing it tells you the same

But you can see from the chemical formula that it's not the same.

Water glasses are water-soluble alkali silicates. They are glassy, i.e. amorphous, non-crystalline compounds with the composition M2O - n SiO2 with n = 1 to 4. Sodium and potassium silicates with n around 3.5 are used in engineering.

Wasserglas_(Chemie)

Wasserglas (Chemie) Wassergläser sind wasserlösliche Alkalisilikate. Es sind glasartige, also amorphe, nicht-kristalline Verbindungen mit der Zusammensetzung

www.chemie.de

It is correct that potassium silicate can also be called waterglass. But my water glass is not potassium silicate in the chemical sense, because it has a different formula and a different K/Si ratio. A bit complicated with this substance^^

Potassium silicate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Well, as water glass we can probably call everything, which is also called potassium silicate. Potassium silicate is probably basically artificially produced in the form that we use. The dry products are probably just dried water glass, if I understand that correctly now....
Dr. Fernandez also has a detailed article on this, which also confirms the more important things again.

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2023/02/common-questions-about-silicon-in-nutrient-solutions.html

 

[Dr.Dutch]

Day Zero.1 Part 1/2 (too many pictures/vids)

Comparison of propagators. Clear plastic wins, but not a big difference.

B3 Tween20+Glycine was killed. After 72h extreme flocculation and also a high increase of the pH to 6.8.

Also a very strong reaction during disinfection with H2O2.

So, the work of the last two days. If I hadn't rebuilt the water pipes, we would have been on schedule until yesterday.

But it looks good. As mentioned in the last report, I wasn't happy with that one. Lines with drippers are now at the higher than the supply lines and the vent valves so at the highest point without additional lines.
I also first noticed during cleaning that some drippers were not closing. I suspect that the closing pressure of 0.3 bar could not be reached due to the overlying supply lines. This also led to a siphon effect, which had emptied the reservoir to over 50% over several hours.

And here we go again

 

[Dr.Dutch]

2/2

Solution for first watering, which was mentioned above. 6g ColonizeAG and 1.5g BioPak were also added.

We start with a higher EC and will lower it over time.

Cuts from first day. Right side from the fridge

Rest was done one day later. Filling, watering and potting all is too much for one day.

Fresh clones.
A slight difference can be seen (i would say), but not significantly

Gave them one additional day with 18h of light

Chitosan (100ppm), harpin-protein (5ppm) (500mg/l ProAct) and the stuff from the BioPak for foliar appliacation
ColonizeAG should actually also be added, but there were problems with the first mixing test. I have to look again, but I'm also not sure whether that is actually with formononetin suitable for it. Would have to get another product for it