DWC Nute Soup

[singularity]

Hi,

I'm not sure if I'm screwing myself here as my original simple soup gets more elaborate and it's my first grow.

I'm using 1:6 grams of maxi gro and bloom respectively, pre mixed at that ratio and I just bring the TDS up to what the plants are using, and maintain it at whatever rate they're feeding from it.

That gives me the basic 100:100:200 Per Mel Frank and adapted to the Lucas Ratio.

When I switched to that fert I was keeping the pH too low at 5.2 for about a week or two which showed deficiencies. While working to correct that I read that it's recommended 200 to 250 of your ppm should be cal-mag, and even if your tap is that high already you could /should add it anyway because it's likely not in a form the plant can use.... not sure how true that is? Kind of a critical thing to know since it can change things quite a bit.

In the meantime I've been bumping up the tap to a total of 200, from 70 to 80, with cal mag, and from botanicare that also adds a fair bit of N to my perfect ratio.

To help bring out full flavors/smells,

I also added 10mL of Sweet, per 3.5 gallons, which is a small dose as to what is recommended, and that brings the tds up to 230ppm, at 500 conversion, btw.

Top that off to the required tds with the above maxi mix and that has worked okay for the last few weeks and there seem to be no signs of def now, but I also maintain a pH of 5.8, so I still don't know if I really do need the additional cal-mag. I'm assuming not, if I maintain that pH, but I don't want to be wrong on that and cause a problem, particularly with the info about it likely not being in available form from tap. I would like to not need it though, because of the extra N in it that I know I don't need.

Also for the last few weeks, I've given 10mL of liquid karma, also per 3.5 gallons. It's rather expensive shit, and they recommend large doses. Maybe it doesn't kill it, but does that mean it's beneficial to it at such an expensive dose as they recommend, and how much is actually required to get the trick done? They seem way nicer overall with it than without, and it goes a lot further at just 10mL for 3.5 gallons, and doesn't turn the bucket into a mess or turn the roots brown... at least not the new growth. Basically the sides of the bucket don't get an inch of slime on them like it seemed to do with it at the recommended dose.

To that, and with the maxi series.pdf schedule in mind that shows several additives from GH like floralicious and the like which I don't have, and that are likely far concentrated by far than the botanicare stuff as I realize, they recommend fairly low doses of amendments like 2.5 to 5mL a gallon instead of the typical 25 to 30 of botanicare.

Still, expensive stuff, and I just want the effect from, enough to do the trick that is. So I tried adding another 7.5mL in total per 3.5 gallons. I'd be sitting around mid 300 ppm at 500 conv. after that and topped it up to around the ~500 that the plants use, for an EC of only 1, in the third week of flower.

This seems incredibly low but it's about what they're eating and it changes from day to day. The last nute changeout, they stopped eating for a day, and then ate less than previously thereafter .I just changed them last night so I'll see if they do it again.

Growth wise, right now, they seem to be lacking for nothing, as far as I can tell. I tried using pH's nutrient calculator to ascertain what is going on with this soup, and while it can't possibly be accurate because it is based on the fixed 7 grams per gallon of the maxi mix, I get around 165, 121, 242 NPK, 116 Mg, 98 S, 186 Ca, 4.5 Fe. These numbers, especially N, are way higher than the 100:100:200. Should I really care that I am deviating from the magic ratio so much and how are amendments normally added with that in mind?

I mean I've seen people recommended tossing in the fixed measured amount and then throwing in the amendments on top of that and I"m sure if I tried it they'd be burnt to a crisp, and it gets a little more baffling in that I'm using such a low dose of them already.

The other reason I'm using the liquid karma and pbp bloom soil for, is a more complete supply of micros. That's the other thing I'm curious about since maxi series is said to include a lot of micros but it doesn't list any at all other than cal mag and sulfur, while if that's all it has then it seems deficient.

Also, I checked on the calculator and if I simply drop the 1 gram per gallon of maxi-grow, with the rest of it all the same, then it ends up being a lot closer to the 100:100:200 golden ratio again, at 139,115,212 NPK, and 110 Mg, 90 S, 170 Ca, 4.2 Fe

It seems clear by that that I should probably drop the 1 gram of maxi grow now and go with the lower numbers that are closer to the "lucas ratio". I wonder if I'm okay to ride out the week with the higher numbers or if I just caused myself a problem?

Any input as to the numbers or the method?

Thanks

 

[singularity]

Right so I played around with the nutrient calculator a little more just to see what lower doses of my maxi mix looks like, more in line with how it's being used.

It really seems to shift the numbers around a fair bit. So yeah I wonder if it's better to hold it at a specific EC like 1.2 and a known and fixed amount of nutrients, or do like I'm doing now and go by what they're eating.

Speaking of which, I have noticed on the weekly change-outs that pre nutrient change they're eating ravenously. Post nutrient change, they seem to just suck up water and no nutrients. That's counter intuitive to me as you'd think they'd eat less towards the end of the week as the solution becomes increasingly unbalanced, and then really chow down after a fresh change, but it's the exact opposite. It seems to take a few days before they're up to speed again.

Third week or so in flower and it seems like what they're actually eating just keeps going down, which confounds the hell out of me since this seems to be the time that everyone talks about "pushing" it... ?

 

[singularity]

Dead forum.

 

[Capulator]

Dead forum.

Dont take it to heart man, thats a pretty long first post to sit and read through. To me your P seems kind of high. I dont know if the 100-100-200 ratio is bnecessarily the "golden ticket".

Also, plants do not always eat the same amount. In DWC you can probably stay under 1.0 EC for the whole grow and do just fine, provided you do weekly changeouts.

I myself am looking toward a 3-1-2 ratio these days, dropping to 2-1-2 in mid flower. Thats elemental ppm ratios, not on the box % ratios.

Have your tap water tested so you know whats in it, instead of guessing.

Cheers!

 

[singularity]

Dont take it to heart man, thats a pretty long first post to sit and read through. To me your P seems kind of high. I dont know if the 100-100-200 ratio is bnecessarily the "golden ticket".

Also, plants do not always eat the same amount. In DWC you can probably stay under 1.0 EC for the whole grow and do just fine, provided you do weekly changeouts.

I myself am looking toward a 3-1-2 ratio these days, dropping to 2-1-2 in mid flower. Thats elemental ppm ratios, not on the box % ratios.

Have your tap water tested so you know whats in it, instead of guessing.

Cheers!

Yeah, it's a long post, but it's a complex topic and there seems to be a few different trains of thought that don't seem to quite resolve in practice, and are just left open ended, for those with more experience to simply know.

Why does my "P" seem "kind of high", if in fact I am adhering ot the 100:100:200 elemental ppm ratio as per mel franks?

High "P" is something I aim to avoid because I have smoked high P weed that sparkled and the end result was a headache of incredible, unbelievable intensity, that I never wish to repeat.

But then you see these "bloom boosters" that people love so much, like cha ching, for example, and how in the hell can people use these at all, without blowing their ratios to hell and back?

Nobody seems to ever discuss that aspect of any additives.

I just now completed week 4, and my petioles are starting to turn a little bit purple. I think it's too soon to be showing any deficiency and at the rate I've been feeding = just to match what they're actually eating, let's just say the buds aren't stacking up so fast.

So am I better to jack the EC to 2 and watch them most likely burn or, possibly, fix whatever minor deficiencies there are and have them stack up way faster? Or is it better to play it safe?

I mean I can take clippings already and already they burn to a white ash.... neither do they look very deficient otherwise.

What I've been doing lately is reverting to a more organic based nutrient... pbp bloom soil + some liquid karma and some trace of sweet raw, which with the amounts I'm using brings me up to about 350ppm at 500 conversion, and I top it off to about 420 to 520ppm with the maxi grow/bloom mixed at the 1:6 ratio I mentioned, per the plant's feeding requirements.

I realized the level of nutrients they actually get from that mix is a lot lower than the calculated 7 grams a gallon or whatever, and they never got close to that much anyway. I add maybe 10 to 12 grams of it per bucket which is 3.5 gallons.

The other thing that throws me is a large part of the lucas method, from what I can tell, had to do with maintaining a highish but safe EC level of about 2 or 2.1?

People claim the maxibloom at 7 grams a gallon or whatever it was, is the lucas method. It does get you "Around" those ppm mel frank's ratios, but EC wise it's less than half.... so how the hell it ends up fulfilling the lucas ratio at such a low EC is beyond me.

Anyway I haven't killed them yet, but it seems it seems that despite whatever attempts at exact calculations, all that I'm left with is a best guess anyway, and I find that all these parroted rules of thumb completely oppose a more in depth understanding.

Oh, and the other thing that I find confusing, is when I add additives at even a fraction of the recommended dose and see the PPM raised a fair bit by it.... if I dosed it anywhere near the recommended level it would not only become the base nutrient but probably the sole nutrient.

What I've been doing is using the pbp bloom soil + maxi blend on nutrient changes, and then topping up the EC throughout the week with just the maxi blend. I noticed that cuttings taste amazing a day or two after a nute change, but later in the week the taste drops off a cliff. So from that, I aim to use more and more of the "organic" as the harvest date approaches, and I can gamble a little bit more with the soup getting out of control. Is that an appropriate way to handle additives or am I reinventing the wheel and doing it all wrong?

 

[Capulator]

Yeah, it's a long post, but it's a complex topic and there seems to be a few different trains of thought that don't seem to quite resolve in practice, and are just left open ended, for those with more experience to simply know.

Why does my "P" seem "kind of high", if in fact I am adhering ot the 100:100:200 elemental ppm ratio as per mel franks?

High "P" is something I aim to avoid because I have smoked high P weed that sparkled and the end result was a headache of incredible, unbelievable intensity, that I never wish to repeat.

But then you see these "bloom boosters" that people love so much, like cha ching, for example, and how in the hell can people use these at all, without blowing their ratios to hell and back?

Nobody seems to ever discuss that aspect of any additives.

I just now completed week 4, and my petioles are starting to turn a little bit purple. I think it's too soon to be showing any deficiency and at the rate I've been feeding = just to match what they're actually eating, let's just say the buds aren't stacking up so fast.

So am I better to jack the EC to 2 and watch them most likely burn or, possibly, fix whatever minor deficiencies there are and have them stack up way faster? Or is it better to play it safe?

I mean I can take clippings already and already they burn to a white ash.... neither do they look very deficient otherwise.

What I've been doing lately is reverting to a more organic based nutrient... pbp bloom soil + some liquid karma and some trace of sweet raw, which with the amounts I'm using brings me up to about 350ppm at 500 conversion, and I top it off to about 420 to 520ppm with the maxi grow/bloom mixed at the 1:6 ratio I mentioned, per the plant's feeding requirements.

I realized the level of nutrients they actually get from that mix is a lot lower than the calculated 7 grams a gallon or whatever, and they never got close to that much anyway. I add maybe 10 to 12 grams of it per bucket which is 3.5 gallons.

The other thing that throws me is a large part of the lucas method, from what I can tell, had to do with maintaining a highish but safe EC level of about 2 or 2.1?

People claim the maxibloom at 7 grams a gallon or whatever it was, is the lucas method. It does get you "Around" those ppm mel frank's ratios, but EC wise it's less than half.... so how the hell it ends up fulfilling the lucas ratio at such a low EC is beyond me.

Anyway I haven't killed them yet, but it seems it seems that despite whatever attempts at exact calculations, all that I'm left with is a best guess anyway, and I find that all these parroted rules of thumb completely oppose a more in depth understanding.

Oh, and the other thing that I find confusing, is when I add additives at even a fraction of the recommended dose and see the PPM raised a fair bit by it.... if I dosed it anywhere near the recommended level it would not only become the base nutrient but probably the sole nutrient.

What I've been doing is using the pbp bloom soil + maxi blend on nutrient changes, and then topping up the EC throughout the week with just the maxi blend. I noticed that cuttings taste amazing a day or two after a nute change, but later in the week the taste drops off a cliff. So from that, I aim to use more and more of the "organic" as the harvest date approaches, and I can gamble a little bit more with the soup getting out of control. Is that an appropriate way to handle additives or am I reinventing the wheel and doing it all wrong?

there are other ratios that work quite well. fatman swears by a 3-1-2 and I have also seen quite a bit of 3-1-4. Dropping the N later in flower is a good idea to give the flower a good burn. Both work. Anything over 60 elemental ppm of P will start killing off beneficial microbes. There is no need to run P at 100ppm IMHO. Also, your N is too low. You should look and see what your Ca and Mg are and you should also check in to sulfur, since S is a contributor to smell and taste.

When you use a bloom booster, you should cut your base nutes. If you take the time to understand a nutrient calculator like hydro buddy, then you will be ahead of a lot of people who just look at the #'s on a bottle.