EZ Cloner Collars - is there a re-usable option?

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PermaClone

PermaClone

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Hypochlorite is not hypochlorous acid w/o protonation by buffering the pH.
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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If you follow the recipes for making hypochlorous acid by adding x grams of pool shock to water (as all the forums suggest) you will not be able to use the same dosages found on the back of that bottle.
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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....sorry, my point stands. Hypochlorius acid is 10x - 100x more effective than hypochlorite and pool shock yields hypochlorite upon addition to water.
 
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FooDoo

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Hypochlorite is hypochlorous acid by just adding water. PH of that water only effects the concentration of that hypochlorous acid.

However, I can see you want do go down with your ship. Maybe A website like maxiumyield will find this thread more useful
 
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FooDoo

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Last time I checked, cloners don't run on hopes, dreams , rainbows and air. Water is always involved. If you introduce pool shock, you will without a doubt get a varying concentration of hypochlorous acid. HTH said this themselves. Sue them if you're right and they are wrong.

Also. Your crack and cocaine reference is correct and incorrect.

hypochlorites turn into hypoclorous acid, all you have to do is add water.

So cocaine is crack, all you have to do is add baking soda , heat, water, time.

And that's why you're wrong because dropping something into water and it making something else; is not the same as adding multiple ingredients and cooking something.

Good day sir.
 
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FooDoo

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BAMN! This dude lays it out nicely!

So pH adjustment is key to protinate the ClO- to HClO

I still say an easier method is to hit the 4 ppm for water treatment and 0.5 - 2 ppm boost to surface sterilize clones once they're all in place with the hypochlorite.

I like our creation in this threat of a gallon of calcium hypochlorite that you can deliver 4 ppm and 2 ppm shocks with 5 and 10 mL/gal doses.

OR

You can create hypochlorous acid, but you'll have to buffer you water such that upon adding granular calcium hypochlorite it counteracts the increase in pH and stays around 6.0. Then you'll have to ensure you cloner is at pH 6 with a pH down that doesn't react with hypochlorite

***NOTE WELL: General Hydroponics pH Down DOES react b/c it has two molecules in it that reaact w/ hypochlorite--citric acid & an ammonium salt****

I will admit I like the higher power of hypochlorous acid. BUT, I don't like the effort when I know I can simply do two shocks, one a 4 ppm upon filling the cloner and a second at 2 ppm after all the cuttings are in place.

Bleach offers this without the effort of pH buffering when the buffers could potentially react.

As a chemist I figure your first "go to" for a ph down would be Hydrochloric acid instead of some comercialized hydro line made for the consumer market. It's used in laboratories and to ph pools too (go figure).

Here's one of those "hydrogen chloride isn't hydrochloric acid because it hasn't been added to water" secenerios.

HCl + H2O -> H3O+ + Cl-

Someone can market a bottle of "hydrochloric acid " for 80$ a gallon and say hydrogen chloride is not the same thing or as effective
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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We're not talking about me making it, we're talking about me recommending to the general public) that:

1. hypochlorous acid is hypochlorite (it's not).
2. That I should somehow recommend how to make it using reagents not found at the hydro store. You'd need a hypochlorous acid generator OR buffering agents from a chemical supply, HCl (i guess I could recommend concrete cleaner from Lowes) when the recipe would be hit-or-miss, could release chlorine gas and more work than just using hypochlorite standard values for both water treatment AND horticulture.

I agree, the price of hypochlorous acid is market up so much it blows my mind. What even worse, it's made with the wrong salts. They all have NaCl as their base salt. If I made it it would be made with KCl as the base salt. I can tell you, UC Roots is the cleanest one.
 
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FooDoo

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Hydrochloric acid is $6 a gallon at any Walmart or pool store. Made for consumer use.

Where did you get your diploma at for chemistry?
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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and how will you buffer the pH? ..bc just a little hcl will drop below 5 quick, and then You'll add pool shock causing it tow rise. You can do it, but it's gonna be a dance. Buffering will be key. I dob't know the envientory of pool supply stores (missed that course in undergrad) but I susoect they have buffers at pool supply, you could use those. So therems the info you need. Goo make it and report back a recipe.

For now, x mg pool shock in a Gallon of wster yield x ppm hypochlorite at a basic pH.

You started this calling me a 'tool'. Now your mud-slinging about my education bc I used concrete cleaner to illustrate the point that putting in my manual method for making hypochlorous acid is not wise for the general public. Further, you still have to buffere the rez to pH.

Still, i'm not going to Say hypochlorous acid is hypochlorite (bc it's not) NOR a convoluted method for making pH stable hypochlorous acid.

If you come up w a good recipe, share it. I can't do that as a comoany, it's innappropriate. Even though you've been rude I can tell you're intelligent and you're getting close to a good recipe based on our back-and-forth.

Yours truly,

The tool,

Michael @ permaclone.
 
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FooDoo

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I question your eductation because you seem to be the opposite of a chemist.

so far every problem faced, instead of thinking like a chemist and wanting to work with the raw materials, you turn immediately to a hydroponic prebottled product.

When all we need is Cl and h2o you turn to 3 pre bottled solutions geared marijuana cultivation , as these items are not found at Walmart or lowes home garden section.

When we need an acid, you turn to prebottled hydropnic ph down instead of the simple hcl element. Then when questioned about your choice, you go to concrete cleaner from lowes. I quickly searched for it on lowes website and only got back quickrete concrete cleaner with no label to tell me what it's made of and phosphoric acid cleaner which is made up of H3O4P.

Also, as a chemist, you keep describing "adding granular powder into water" as this super complex process comparable to jumping thru a burning onion ring at 150 mph.

A real chemist FIRST makes a hypothesis, THEN tests this hypothesis. You made a guess, didn't test it, then stick by your guess like its law.

Here's what a real chemist does. You asked how to make hypchlorous acid. Here's how a chemist does it. (And no it's not buying a bottle from your grow shop)

https://aquaox.wordpress.com/category/hypochlorous-acid-sodium-hypochlorite-and-chlorine/

"In this article, we describe a method for the preparation and stabilization of a pure form of HOCl for potential use as a pharmaceutical agent."

"Hypochlorous acid was prepared in 154 mM NaCl by acidifying reagent-grade NaOCl to the pH range of 3.5 to 4.0 with dilute HCl."

This translates to:

hypochlorous acid was prepared in 154 millimoles (aka .154 moles ) of NaCl (sodium chloride aka table salt)

by acidifying reagent-grade NaOCl (By Ph downing sodium chloride "the thing permaclone says to stay away from yet here are scientists using it in a laboratory to create the best stable version of hydroclorous acid" to the pH range of 3.5 to 4.0 with dilute HCl. (Ph to 3.5-4.0 Using hydrocloric acid)

All this scientist did was ph water down with acid and then added sodium chloride.

also from the article "Stabilized HOCL is a low-concentration, acidified, unbuffered solution of HOCl in saline."

Yet our permaclone chemist keeps asking "YES BUT HOW WILL YOU BUFFER PH".

Also, he recommends uc roots which is .028 hypchlorus acid. Claims don't make your own because you can't ph. Even if you don't ph and add pool shock into water that creates a high ph of 8.5 and only make 9% HOCl like HTH says, YOU'LL still make over 300% more HOCl than uc roots

So please, tell us where you got your education so we may reach out to your old professor so he can look over your statements.

I can tell you I'm no chemist yet I've dropped more information, more facts, and sites more sources of information from gov websites, chemical companies, Wordpress, and even a little pathetic wiki yet you haven't given a single source to back your own statements up.

HTH went on the record to saying simply adding pool shock to water (nothing else. No magic. No ph buffer. No religious sacrifice of a goat) creates anywhere from 9%-95% hypchlorous acid depending on ph. This is a chemical company that's been around since 1928 and sole scientific focus is on chlorine.

You claim they are wrong and you won't disclose sources. You won't disclose education. You aren't a chemical company. You don't even deal in the Chlorine business. You sell cloning collars.

So if I want scientific facts on silk, do I go and ask someone who sells iron?
 
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FooDoo

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IMG 1318


Blatantly wrong. You write pool shock products and bleach products aren't the same as hypochlorus acid products YET BLEACH PRODUCTS AND POOL SHOCK PRODUCTS MAKE THE HYPOCHLOROUS ACID PRODUCT (with the exception of salt water or saltwater + electricity) A percent , no matter how small or how bg, of every pool shock solution and bleach solution is HOCl.

You are saying saline (salt water) products are not salt products and that putting salt into water doesn't make saltwater.

....sorry, my point stands. Hypochlorius acid is 10x - 100x more effective than hypochlorite and pool shock yields hypochlorite upon addition to water.

Now this has used cars salesman tactic all over it.

Pool shock upon addition to water yields hydroclorous acid and a hypochlorite ion. These two combined are free Cl ppm.

So wether you use table salt, pool shock, or bleach to achieve X amount of free ppm Cl, it doesn't matter. You get exactly the same amount of X Cl.

The only thing that matters is what % of that X ppm is hydroclorous acid. The only thing that determines that is PH.

So take two cloners filled with RO water.

PH One down with HCl to 4.0.

Leave the other at normal ph, which mine is 7.0.

Add exactly the same amount of chlorine to both cloners. Wether it's bleach , pool shock, or table salt.

Both cloners will now have the same exact amount of free ppm chlorine. Say it's 4 ppm. And they are both derived from the same exact source.

However, because of different ph in the cloners , they will have different % hypochlorous acid inside that 4 ppm.

The first cloner with ph down will have 4 ppm Cl but of that 4ppm, 95% is HCOl and 5% is OCI-. So 3.8ppm is hydroclorous acid and .2 ppm is OCl-

The second cloner also has 4 ppm Cl but only 15% is hydrochlorous acid and 85% is OCI-. So this cloner, with the same exact ppm count of 4 Cl that was derived from the same exact source only has .6 ppm HCOl and 3.4 ppm COl-

The sleazy used car salesman tactic is you saying pool shock plus water makes OCI- which isn't as good at sterilizing. Which is true. It did yield 5%OCl- but you completely ignore the 95% HOCl.

That's like spitting in a glass of water and marketing it as 99.99% water instead of .01% spit.

A true chemist like the spokes person for HTH was able too clearly and easily explain this without dropping complicated words or equations the way permaclone rebuttes to all the scientific proof being dropped on him showing he hasnt grasped his chemistry on the matter yet.

This is so simple I bet I could explain it to a 5 year old however it's been 3 days with 5 completely different sources of information and this chemist/inventor/CEO still hasn't wrapped his mind around what simple things happen when chlorine gets added to water
 
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PermaClone

PermaClone

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ok, so instead of trying to hurt my ego (which you're not; nor relavent) write the the recipe out for your peers and let's move on. Because the PermaClone's manual is NOT going to 1. Say they're the same molecule OR 2. Recommend to the general public the recipe you mentioned above playing w pool shock AND HCl to the general public.
 
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FooDoo

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Pool shock and HCl are both sold to the general public. You can go to Walmart or lowes or Home Depot and pick up either of them. All deemed perfectly safe to be sold to everyone everywhere.

You act like this is sourcing plutonium. Do you truthfully have a degree in chemistry and can you please produce it? You are a public figure with a registered company and website. And you give your full name. Something like what education you received should also be public information if you are on your website claiming to be a chemist.

If someone says "I'm a doctor" they should produce documention if asked for verification.

EDIT: Does this mean that the FDA has enough confidence in allowing an inbred, buck tooth, person with the iq of a gerbel to walking into any one of those stores and purchase these household items, take them home, measure them out, and add them to their pool safely.

Is permaclone suggesting they think it's too dangerous and too complicated for its consumers and we aren't as smart as the average homeowner with a pool?

Guess those pool boys are Einsteins in hiding and us horticulturists should just stick to coloring books
 
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FooDoo

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You seem angry. I guess i was offensive

Chemist/inventor/CEO pulls a "umadbro?" During an intellectual debate.

Sigh.

Edit: ok, checked out your linked in. Doesn't tell me much other than you went from bagging bagels to attending a university ranked #76 in regional universities west. Was a lab assistant. Then went on to engineering. Another lab assistant . Then boom permaclone.

So what degree did you achieve in chemistry? Because all the information posted on .gov sites and books used to source wiki are from chemists with phds.

I'll even ask the person who's been talking to HTH to get the level of education with whom they are speaking with.

Then the public can decide for themselves where the credible, tested, educated information is coming from.
 
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FooDoo

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For the record, I am not trying to belittle you. This is called setting up credibility.

If you say the spokesman for HTH, a chemical company that's been operating and producing chlorine products since 1928, is wrong and you are right, then people need some credibility.

If there's an article written on you saying you are the top leading researcher on sterilization and chlorine with a phd, papers written, classes taught, speeches given, then I will apologize.
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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Sounds like th HTH rep is likely a BS in chem who's statements all mirrored mine.

Granular pool shock is hypochlorite unless pH adjust to 6.0. What i said earlier on, i recommended a buffer and adjusting your rez bc the maintenance of HClo depends on pH.

I also said that's a lot of work and recommended horticultural standard strengths of hypochlorite of 0.5 - 2 ppm for roots and 4 ppm for water treatment to avoid labor and hit-or-mis pH adjustment

Sorry, no PhD...most of this knowledge is post-academic, anyhow. And agreed upon by the same sources you are saying disagree w me when they don't.
 
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FooDoo

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Granular pool shock is hypochlorite unless pH adjust to 6.0.

Again, you are wrong.

Pool shock is always hypochlorite.

And pool shock is always hypochlorous acid.

Ph only effects which ratio. Seriously, you don't understand this? Or you just trolling me now? Because you keep repeating the same incorrect thing over and over again.

I'm going to forward all your statements to real chemists , will post their replies.
 
PermaClone

PermaClone

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Why you gotta hate on my bagel making days! ...those were good times!
 
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